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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: reesie on Friday 13 February 15 00:30 GMT (UK)
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I have details of this ancestor, Georg Ludewig Haupt and Sophie Regine Voss having a child, Johann Friedrich Haupt and him being baptised in Berlin in 1834. Sophie died in 1835 and Georg emigrated to England where our side of the family started. I can find a Sophie Regine Voss born in Walkow, (now Poland) in 1812, but no record of Georg Ludewig. Can someone advise me how to proceed, please? We think he was born around 1806? I thought I might get more information by tracing Johann Friedrich, but I haven't found anything on him either.
I have read that the first name would have been a saint's name and the second name the Rufname. The baptism was in the evangelische Berliner Dom, so would that have been true for non Catholics?
Georg and his new wife and 2 children don't appear on the census records in London in 1841, though his son is there later and lived a long life.
Thanks in anticipation.
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Hello,
I am Protestant (evangelisch) and not informed about Catholic rules, since almost all of my ancestors had been Protestant.
Rufnamen are: Georg, Sophie & Friedrich
In most cases the first name Johann is the "saint's" name, standing for Johannes / John the Apostle and it was given to almost all Protestant boys and a lot of girls (Anna / Johanna).
In fact there are no saints in Protestant church, but Johannes "was loved by Jesus".
Georg Ludewig might be baptized Johann Georg Ludewig.
Are you sure about Walkow?
Berlin in GenWiki:
http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/GOV:Adm_369110 (http://wiki-de.genealogy.net/GOV:Adm_369110)
Good luck
Rudolf
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Berlin address book
Allgemeiner Wohnungsanzeiger für Berlin und dessen nächste Umgebungen mit Einschluß von Charlottenburg : auf das Jahr 1834
Haupt
http://digital.zlb.de/viewer/image/18979459_1834/271/#topDocAnchor (http://digital.zlb.de/viewer/image/18979459_1834/271/#topDocAnchor)
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Sorry, I don't understand. I have some German, but I don't know what I'm looking for in the links you sent. I can't see Georg Ludewig Haupt in the register for Berlin, but the one Georg Ludwig Haupt I've found in Preussen, who had a child with Sophie Regine Voss had him baptised in Berliner Dom on 23 November 1834. Wouldn't they have had to live in the area for thier child to be baptised there?
We are stuck as we can't find anything for George Ludewig Haupt's birth - only a record in the Marriage register in St Matthew's Bethnal Green in London and the births of his 2 children with Elizabeth Reed, whom he married in December 1815.
They might not even be the same man. Any ideas on how I can find out more info?
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Georg and his new wife and 2 children don't appear on the census records in London in 1841
Oh yes they do..in Albion Street HO107/694/4 folio 12 page 17
George Haupt 35 sugar baker from Foreign Parts
Elizabeth 25 out of county
George 5 in county
Edward (sic) 1 in county
If you are looking on Ancestry, search for Slaupt
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Thank you, Shaun ... just added that entry to my Sugarbakers database
... and reesie, already on my database at www.mawer.clara.net/sugarhha.html are two more Haupt sugarbakers ...
Henry Haupt, 30, foreign, Williams Place Bent St, Liverpool 1841 HO107/ 559/ 16/ 11
and a much later Alfred Herbert Haupt at Lyle's or Tate's in Silvertown in 1911.
Have you thought of the Anglo-German Family History Society www.agfhs.org ? May well be some help available there.
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Thank you both. Firstly I would never have thought of looking for Slaupt, but I can kind of understand why this mistake was made when looking at the handwriting. Now I need to try to find what happened to George Ludewig Haupt. I just wish I could find out more about him, who his parents were etc. Thanks also for the tips given.
It looks like there were lots of German sugar bakers. Did they come over as already skilled workers, or was it a way of getting a labourer job. Wondering if he would have been a sugar baker in Germany before coming to london?
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A small proportion of skilled sugarbakers arrived in the UK to initially get the industry off the ground (16th-18thC), and later (18th-19thC) to run sugarhouses for the owners, many of whom were simply investors.
The great majority of migrant sugarbakers were labourers, often leaving areas with little employment for ag labs or avoiding service in the army.
Some came simply as labourers looking for work, whilst others were recruited from German villages for specific sugarhouses. There were also good lines of communication by which relatives already working here could inform younger family members and village friends that work was available.
Until later in the 19thC, the only skilled men in a sugarhouse were the boiler (who usually ran the place) and the bookkeeper ... and just one boiler might require 2 or 3 dozen labourers.
I would suspect that George, particularly if he came from rural Germany or further east, would have been a labourer.
For further reading regarding migration to UK look at ...
Panayi at www.mawer.clara.net/ppanayi.html
... and for a great read about working conditions look at ...
Greenwood at www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html
Been looking at Alien Arrivals on A**y, but nothing, though there is a record of a Georg Haupt comb maker and wife returning from New York in 1843 after 2yrs away.
Also from A**y - Central Criminal Court - George Haupt, 48, imprisoned for 1 month for 'larceny by servant', 5 Apr 1847.
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Hi Sugarbakers,
did you check Gotha for Herman Almeroth?
Regards
Rudolf
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Hi Sugarbakers,
did you check Gotha for Herman Almeroth?
Regards
Rudolf
Yes, but no joy, Rudolf. Thank you for reminding me.
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reesie
That Old Bailey trial ...
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=184704050079
... shows it was George the sugarbaker, working at Bowman's in Alie St, Whitechapel ... the word servant being used for employee.
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... and these two from the 1851 census ...
Charles Haupt 13 and John Edward Haupt 9, both sons of a sugar baker journeyman, in Limehouse Workhouse (Childrens Establishment).
HO 107/ 1554/ 667.
I assume these to be George Charles 1837 and Edward John 1841.
Elizabeth Ann 1839 died 1840, I think.
William Adolphus 1843, a son?
Elizabeth, the mother, died 1846, John St.
... so where was George Ludwig in 1851 ?
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Thank you so much for your help. I am amazed! What I don't understand is how you know where to look?
George is a little older than we thought. Seeing how hard the sugar bakers worked for less money than they should have, I felt sad to see how little the value of what he stole was compared to the riches of the owner. How easy would it have been for him to get another job afterwards? The theft happened after his wife,Elizabeth, died. To think that his children (and I didn't know about John Edward) ended up in the workhouse - would that have been because he couldn't care for them or because he had died or left the country? Might he have died in prison - effects of alcohol / withdrawal?
How can I find out how old the children were when they left the workhouse, if indeed both of them did? And any more ideas how I can find out where George Ludwig came from and when? I still don't know whether the Georg Ludwig I found in Brandenburg / Berlin is one and the same.
Thank you all so much!
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reesie
Limehouse Childrens Establishment
Limehouse Workhouse was situated in Church Lane, Limehouse. In 1838 the Board of Guardians of Stepney Union decided to use it for the accommodation of the children of the Union. By 1848 it had room for 400 children. It closed in 1873 when Stepney Union became part of the South Metropolitan School District and sent its children to the district schools at Sutton. (TNA - A2A)
You'll find the records of admissions and discharges at London Metropolitan Archives under ref: STBG/L/119/*, where * is the catalogue number of which ever of the half-year books you choose to look at.
George Ludwig was alive and working as a gate keeper in 1861 - according to son George C's marriage cert, but deceased by 1887 - according to son George C's second marriage cert.
Bryan
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I saw that he was a gate keeper on that marriage certificate, but how can you tell he was still alive? Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm new at this and I'm trying to work out how to find out the information. I noticed that neither George Ludwig nor Lydia's father, a mariner, were there as witnesses, so I thought they might be out of the country or dead.
My brothers and I intend to go to London in April to do some searching. Do you happen to know if George Ludwig's marriage certificate in 1835 would show his father's name like the more recent ones do?
Thank you so much for your patience and going out of your way to help like this. I really appreciate it and I've found your website truly interesting. It's made George Ludwig's life so much more real to me.
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I saw that he was a gate keeper on that marriage certificate, but how can you tell he was still alive?
I can't, but it was the difference between the two certs that has made me consider it. I've been hunting for him in the Workhouses, but with no luck. I thought he might have been living with son George in 1861 census, but no ... George C (transcribed on A**y as Harriet rather than Haupt) hairdresser living by himself in Robin Hood Rd, Poplar, same address as marriage cert.
George Ludwig may well have returned to Germany, but I'm still thinking part of the problem is the writing/spelling/transcribing of Haupt as I can't find the two(?) younger boys either.
Sorry, George Ludwig's marriage entry at St Matthew, Bethnal Green, does not give occupations or fathers' names. George did sign the register himself, though his wife did not.
You might be new to this but you are asking lots of questions, the right questions, which means you'll get on fine.
As to where to find info - use whatever is available. Does your local library have free access to subscription sites ? (and remember this weekend is free on Find My Past on your own computer.)
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reesie
We have George L a sugarbaker in 1847, but his son gives his occupation as gate keeper in 1861. This may have been the last occupation he could remember for his father if he had either left the country or died, neither of which we can confirm at the moment.
Whatever happened after his imprisonment, and we know his two young sons were sent to the children's workhouse, George L may have sought help from the Society of Friends for Foreigners in Distress. Their help to many is recorded in annual books, some of which were published by Schulze & Co in London. It may be worth trying to find where these books, or the original records, are held, particularly as you plan a research trip to London.
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Thanks Sugarbakers. I've written an email to the Society to ask where their archives are. George Ludwig remains a puzzle. We want so much to find out where he came from, but it seems to be extremely difficult. I don't really understand the German sites I've tried looking at. But I appreciate all the help and information you have given me. Thank you. Without it I'm not sure I would have found out even half of what you did or have a clue about his sad life and that of his children.
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Thanks Reesie. It's very, very difficult to find details of ancestors in Germany without first knowing the parish in which they were born. That is why we try to hunt down every detail about them here, in the hope there'll be a clue to their origin.
German church registers, censuses, naturalisation papers and local charities are the most likely sources of a birthplace ... and it seems only the latter is a possibility in your case. Fingers crossed.