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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: jesika jae on Wednesday 11 February 15 13:02 GMT (UK)
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Jackson W
CE
5779014
Stalag IVB 229609
The dog tags of Uncle Will (Gt Yarmouth 1913 -1959).
I don't know when or how he came to be captured, how long he was imprisoned, when he was released and by whom, even which service he was in.
A few years ago I saw a TV program about a jazz band in Stalag IVB & wondered if Uncle Will was the pianist, my formidable grandmother having put all her sons to piano lessons.
I'd be very grateful for any information and offer thanks to those who tried to help me learn more about my "motherless" WWI granddad. Through Rootschat, an unknown and unexpected cousin in Melbourne recently contacted me. I know more, but granddad still remains without a mother, as does his sister Catherine I never knew about. (James Kelly 1895-1927)
j
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Ancestry has a record of a Fusilier WV Jackson Royal Fusiliers with the army number and POW number you quote in a POW camp STALAG IV D/Z located in Annaburg in the state of Saxony-Anhalt. This camp (thanks Wikipedia) was near(ish) to STALAG IVB and apparently was, from 1944, where prisoners about to be exchanged or returned home on medical grounds were held.
I understand one can get details of what the record contains from the army record office that has them, in this case, Infantry and Army Physical Training Corps Record Office, Stanwell Road School, Ashford, Middlesex.
To know more about his army record, as he is a WW2 soldier, you will need to get (ie pay for) his documents. There is a guide on how to do this on Rootschat which someone more expert than I will no doubt point you towards. Later - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=651361.0
Whether any of this will tell you about the jazz playing - who knows? There are a number of mentions of bands to be found if you spend a hour or so Googling STALAG IVB and searching for the term band or jazz.
Hope this helps?
maxD
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Thank you for this, I now know far more than I did a couple of hours ago!
It's interesting that Stalag IV D/Z was a camp for prisoners due to be released because of medical problems as family folk lore has it that Uncle Will became diabetic during his incarceration.
Many thanks.
j
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You are welcome. It was IV D/Z which was the camp for poorly folk, probability is that he was first in IVB (hence the info you had) and then transferred to IV D/Z when he became diabetic. IVD is some 200 plus km from IVB and D/Z 20km from IVD
There is some info on STALAG IVD findable on Google. http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/pow/stalag4dz.html is all I've been able to find about IVD/Z
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Thank you very much, it's very kind of you to help
j
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Stalag 1VB was an N.C.O. Camp, but it was also one where POW were initially registered by the Germans.
They were "de loused", given a thorough Medical along with all the necessary injections. Issued with new kit where needed. Photographed and given a POW Identity tag.
Other Ranks were sent to work details where they were needed after this initial registration.
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Thank you, ADM199.
I asked my library if they could get "Prisoners of War, British Army, 1939-1945", but because of their rapidly diminishing budget and the cost of the book, decided not to continue with my request.
There may be some other way to learn how & when he went to Stalag IVB and when he left.
Thank you again
j
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Kdr. der Kriegsgefangenen Im Wk IV (Commander of POW Camps in Military District IV (Dresden).
Stammlager (Other ranks) A to G. B Muelberg, D Neuburxdorf 5Aug40, 1941 in Torgau.
Offizierlager (Officers) A to D. C was the famous Colditz Castle.
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hello
i am new to this site so am still learning how to use it
you seem to be a founatian of knowledge.
i am researching my father's history so i hope you can point me in some direction. i would be very grateful
he was taken prisoner in Tripoli and sent to a n Italian POW camp. he only said that he could see Vesuvius
i have a photograph whicn my mother sent hime..and it came back so i presume information is correct
on the back it says
4346341 pte #garrat ( wrong spelling as his name was GARRATT
campo 87
PIN 3400
i know that he was released from the Italian POW camp when Italy capitulated and sent to a German POW camp before finishing up in Austria in a tree-felling camp
i have detaios of the austrian end, and a going to visit in March.
Cab you give me any pointers about how to fill in some of the gaps.
best regardsw
Maggie Loughran
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According to listings of Italian POW camps, Campo (also PG) 87 was at Benevento, about 60 miles from Vesuvius but the topography is such that a view of one from the other is probably possible. I have been able to find, in Italian, this paper about the camp produced by an Italian academic from Italian Army papers :
https://www.academia.edu/12297014/Il_campo_di_prigionia_di_Benevento (if this link doesn't wotk, it is attached.
(The picture of David Niven is unrelated to the camp)
My Italian is a wee bit rusty but the article references a memoire by a British prisoner Donald I Jones called "Fuga da Salmona" Escape from Salmona (Found on Amazon but expensive, try your local library).
It also references another prisoner Vincent Roberts whose own papers apparently say he was transferred to Stalag IV-D at Torgau in Germany.
There is a listing of your father at Stalag XVII-A at Kaisersteinbruch Austria but you have this I imagine.
Hope this helps and welcome to Rootschat?
MaxD
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Brief extracts from the Italian article:
The article explains that the Italians were not prepared for so many Brits to be taken prisoner at the time of Tobruk and they constructed seven new POW camps, among them this one at Benevento, in the area of Cardoncelli, in the middle of the countryside.
The first 1874 prisoners entered the camp on 1 September 1942 followed by many more during that month. They were mostly English but there were also Canadians, Australians, South Africans, New Zealanders and Indians. The camp commandant was Colonel Amleto Garattini (note the name!!)
The POW Donald I Jones in his book “Escape from Sulmona” explains he first was in a camp in Benghazi , then a brief transit through a camp at Capua followed by 6 weeks "of misery" at Benevento. At the beginning of October 1942 [the party he was in] was marched to the station at Benevento and they were sent 100 miles north to Sulmona.
It is suggested that the reminiscences of Vincent Roberts, taken prisoner at Tobruk and in Benevento for some months, can be found on the internet ???
The only building that still remains of the camp is the hospital building It has since been used for other purposes, including a restaurant but at the time of writing the article (2014) , was unused.
The picture of a long white building is of the camp hospital. The pictures of a tented camp and huts with a line of men are from a similarly constructed camp in Croatia.
MaxD
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Maggie
I believe you have seen the two posts about Campo 87 but you have not indicated whether my work was of use or of interest or indeed whether you want any more assistance.
It would be nice to hear from you.
MaxD
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Sorry Max
yes this is all fascinating, and i am so grateful for your interest and information
i am at the beginning of this journey into tracking down my dad's War history.
Like many, he spoke very little of his story to me.
however so much of what you tell me rings bells. i will certainly follow up on much of what you tell me.
I am going to Austria in March to visit ST. Wolfgang where Dad ended his War Story in a tree felling gang. i have information about the exact spot where the English group were held for about 18months and i believe i can find the very building.
I think Dad spoke to me more about his time there because it was relatively easy compared to his experiences in Germany and Italy. he certainly had very fond memories of his Austrian 'overseer' and i have had contact with the family of this kind Austrian man who at times risked his life to take care of them and make their lives a little easier..
is it possible to find out who the other men were in this gang?
as i said, i am early in this journey and perhaps you have some tips.
many thanks Max, this clearly is a passion for you. there are so many stories still untold.
Best regards
Maggie
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Max
i cant seem to find this book 'Escape from Sulermo' on the internet. is there an ISBN for it ?
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no worries.. i just found the book and have ordered it, thanks Max
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Maggie
Delighted to hear from you. Can we just cross check a bit. You mention St Wolfgang. The top left image on this link shows a road building party of POWs (not sure what nation) at St Wolfgang. which is in the Salzkammergut in the province of Salzburg. https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=roGnlfKD&id=065A905BDB36CCB1938F0AEAB34A694D1739CA52&thid=OIP.roGnlfKDdyBVPVeYfPlq4wEsCd&q=pows+st+wolfgang&simid=608029038839926609&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0
Your father also appears in a POW list in Kaisersteinbruch in the province of Vienna although it doesn't have dates.
I can't though find St Wolfgang named in the comprehensive list of POW camps in Austria. It also doesn't come up in the on line POW lists - do you have any other info regarding his location in Austria??
MaxD
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i have only verbal from dad.. and i have wonderful watercolour PAINTINGS of the house where the were held on SCHWARTZENSEE just up from St Wolfgang
I have contacted The local Toursit information and they have offered s a tour to the area..how lovely is that?
i am confident that i can locate the exact position of the house where they were held.... there are only 3 possible locations..
what do i do with this information Max... i am almost beyond myself !
another thing...
Dad told me that there is a house in St. Wolfgang which Hitler GAVE.. lent to Duke of windsor. he was so definite about this... he told me about this MANY years before it was known that he was a Nazi supporter.
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Brief extracts from the Italian article:
The POW Donald I Jones in his book “Escape from Sulmona” explains he first was in a camp in Benghazi , then a brief transit through a camp at Capua followed by 6 weeks "of misery" at Benevento. At the beginning of October 1942 [the party he was in] was marched to the station at Benevento and they were sent 100 miles north to Sulmona.
MaxD
I wonder if that might have been the camp where my Uncle Richard Oliver Draffan was after he was taken prisoner in North Africa. Uncle Dick was in the DLI and I remember all the concern for Auntie Mary when she had no news from him for some six months. I would only have been about 10 years old at the time. He did escape from an Italian camp but ran into a German patrol when he and some others were about to cross into Switzerland, or so the story goes. If only I had had the sense to talk to him about it in all the many years afterwards. Anyway he spent the remaining war years in a German POW camp.
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same story i have from my dad!
set free from italian POW only to be captured by Germans
Bummer or what?
how did they survive..we need the stories...
these guys came back and DID NOT TELL their stories... why? were they traumatised... or did they just want to get back to a NORMAL life...
i dont really understand it... and now i want to gather their stories and shout it out loud,
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Malcolm
RD (in the list) Draffan DLI is listed in Stalag VII-A in Moosberg an der Isar Bavaria. His number suggest he might have been 16th Battalion, piece about them here http://www.durhamlightinfantry.webs.com/16dlinafricaitaly.htm
Maggie
Looks very much as if he was in more than one camp. Kaisersteinbruch is on the other side of Austria from the Schwarzensee area. Tracing the journeys of WW2 POWs is notoriously difficult. There is a guide here http://www.iwm.org.uk/research/tracing-your-family-history/prisoners-of-war/where-to-find-prisoner-of-war-records and the recent post on this thread will be of interest:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786128.new#new
If you know which battalion of the East Yorks your father was in when captured then you could consider getting the war diaries to see what lead to the capture.
MaxD
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Malcolm
RD (in the list) Draffan DLI is listed in Stalag VII-A in Moosberg an der Isar Bavaria. His number suggest he might have been 16th Battalion, piece about them here http://www.durhamlightinfantry.webs.com/16dlinafricaitaly.htm
MaxD
Thank you so much for this Max. I have forwarded this information on to his grandson Richard Draffan and granddaughter Nicola. There was another soldier in the family back in the 13th century - a certain William Wallace whose grandmother Alicia Draffan was also from Lesmahagow (my gt.grandad born there).
The initials R O in the casualty list are for 'Richard Oliver', his first names. We had many Olivers in the family.
First name(s) R O
Last name Draffan
Year 1943
Capture year 1943
Service number 4466424
Rank Lance Corporal
Rank as transcribed L/Cpl
Regiment Durham Light Infantry 16th Bn
Regiment as transcribed Durham Light Infantry
Theatre of war North Africa
Archive reference WO 417/58
PIece description Casualty Lists - Other Ranks 1076 - 1097
Archive The National Archives
Record set British Army Casualty Lists 1939-1945
Category Armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Second world war
Collections from United Kingdom
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Then the link to 16 DLI is relevant and gives a hook to hang further enquiries from.
MaxD
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Then the link to 16 DLI is relevant and gives a hook to hang further enquiries from.
MaxD
Yes it certainly is and many thanks again for finding his camp and the page describing what happened in North Africa. This is he late Forties, early Fifties, with Gran (his mother) - one day with his brother and sisters and myself picnicking by the Thames.
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I see a link has already been added to my website Durham Light Infantry 1920-46 unfortunately its a little outdated and the website has moved to another server/company . The old site has been deleted.
https://durhamlightinfantry1920-46.weebly.com/16-dli-nafrica--italy.html
4466424 L/Cpl Draffen was captured on the 27th February 1943 during the first battle of Sedjenane, February–March 1943. The Italians were responsible for the welfare of the PoWs at this time a file at the National Archives WO21 lists those who came under their jurisdiction unfortunately in Draffens case no camps are listed for him. On liberation prisoners were asked to fill in a `liberation questionnaire`not all did this but he may have? Hope this helps a little.
Jim
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Thank you Jim for your explanation and directing us to your page on the 16th Batallion of the DLI. The story Uncle Dick told us was that they were first attacked by Italians but played dead and the Italians passed them by, but then they were picked up by a German patrol. As it was Italian territory the Germans then handed them over to the Italians.
In the heat of the moment and all the action that was going on maybe he was a bit mixed up.
Just a pity we don't know which Italian camp he was in before he escaped - only to be picked up by another German patrol. I watched the programme about one of the escapes from Italy and have a book about another. Awful times.
Malcolm
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Malcolm,
There is another excellent DLI website which deals with only the 16th Battalion. It is run by Tom Tunney the son of an ex 16 DLI soldier and an authority on the battalion .
On Toms website there is the story of Edward Sefton who was 16th DLI and a prisoner at the same camp. Tom mentions that Sefton kept a list of his friends in the camp and your uncle is amongst them . The links to them are here;-
http://powbooks.atspace.co.uk/page120.html
http://powbooks.atspace.co.uk/page121.html
http://powbooks.atspace.co.uk/page123.html
Page 121 mentions your uncle.
Best Wishes
Jim
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Thank you so much Jim for these pages. I'm passing them on to Richard Draffan and his sister Nicola, grandson and grand-daughter of Uncle Dick. Their dad cousin Derek doesn't use a computer but is still around so he will be happy to get this info about his Dad too.
All the best, Malcolm
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Delighted that Jim appeared on the scene to update the DLI link and to provide that splendid extra info!
MaxD