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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Bellejazz on Tuesday 10 February 15 03:11 GMT (UK)
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Hello all,
I'm seeking info on:
Jane Bain (nee McKay)
b abt. 1792 Montrose, Scotland
m: James Bain 1816
widowed between 1832-38
arrived NSW in 1838 on the 'Portland' (aged 46), with son James (17), and daughters Elizabeth (15) & Jane (6).
Older daughters Mary & Henrietta (with husband Alexander Clugston) had arrived the year before - also on the 'Portland'.
There are many descendants of this family so quite a lot of info is available:
- Henrietta & Alex settled in Victoria and had at least 7 kids
- Mary married Samuel Hadcroft, settled in the Milton area of NSW & had at least 9 kids
- James - ? ? ?
- Elizabeth (my 3x ggrandmother) married Thomas Appleby, they settled in the Bega/Bermagui area and had about 100 12 kids
- Jane jnr appears to have died in Sydney in 1888 (aged 57) having never married (reg under maiden name)
However, I've not been able to find any further trace of their mother Jane after her arrival in NSW, so some help with tracking down this elusive woman would be most appreciated!
thanks,
B.
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Re: Jane Bain death 1888
1055/1888 BAIN, JANE; AGE 57 YEARS; DIED SYDNEY; SYDNEY
Probate Packet: http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Item\309892
Jane Bain Date of death 13 June 1888, Granted on 27 July 1888
SMH 14June1888 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13689024
BAIN.—June 13, at her late residence, No. 12, Belmore-street, Surry Hills, Jane, relict of the late John Bain, builder, of Sydney, aged 57 years.
Funeral notice SMH 14 June1888 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13689048
SMH 15 June1888 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28344225
THE FRIENDS of Mr. SAMUEL BAIN are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his beloved MOTHER, the late Mrs. Jane Bain, TOMORROW (Friday) AFTERNOON; to move from her late residence. No. 12, Belmore-street, Surry Hills, at 2 o'clock, to the Waverley Cemetery.
Son's death:
15811/1936 BAIN, SAMUEL FRANCIS; Father-JOHN; Mother-JANE; RYDE
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- Jane jnr appears to have died in Sydney in 1888 (aged 57) having never married (reg under maiden name)
B.
This Jane Bain, aged 57 in 1888 is, I think , not yours.
John and Jane BAIN lived in Sydney and after John Bain died, there were In Memoriam notices placed by his children for many years, notably by Samuel. John died in 1874 and was a scale and weight maker.
Death
20/1874 BAIN John
Aged 63
Died Sydney
Here is his Funeral Notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13329385
The death you have noted was for his wife Jane BAIN
Some of the listed children from the In memoriam are
Jane LINDSAY ( married to Robert LINDSAY)
Ann LAMBLEY
Emma FISHER
John BAIN jnr
Samuel Francis BAIN
Sue
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I'm seeking info on:
........
- Jane jnr appears to have died in Sydney in 1888 (aged 57) having never married (reg under maiden name)
Do you have a copy of that dc? If not, may I suggest you seek out an official transcription.
Cheers, JM
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I'm seeking info on:
Jane Bain (nee McKay)
b abt. 1792 Montrose, Scotland
widowed between 1832-38
arrived NSW in 1838 on the 'Portland' (aged 46)
However, I've not been able to find any further trace of their mother Jane after her arrival in NSW, so some help with tracking down this elusive woman would be most appreciated!
This death looks to be a high possibility:
Jean BAIN age 46yrs 1840
Parish: St Andrew's Scots Church, Presbyterian, SYDNEY
Ref: V18401461 102
Ref: V1840487 103
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- Jane jnr appears to have died in Sydney in 1888 (aged 57) having never married (reg under maiden name)
B.
This Jane Bain, aged 57 in 1888 is, I think , not yours.
John and Jane BAIN lived in Sydney and after John Bain died, there were In Memoriam notices placed by his children for many years, notably by Samuel. John died in 1874 and was a scale and weight maker.
Death
20/1874 BAIN John
Aged 63
Died Sydney
Here is his Funeral Notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13329385
The death you have noted was for his wife Jane BAIN
Some of the listed children from the In memoriam are
Jane LINDSAY ( married to Robert LINDSAY)
Ann LAMBLEY
Emma FISHER
John BAIN jnr
Samuel Francis BAIN
Sue
ahh, yes Jane, you appear to be correct, that Jane is a Bain by marriage, not birth so not my Jane jnr. then.
(I wonder what did become of Jane jnr then?)
Thanks!
B.
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This death looks to be a high possibility:
Jean BAIN age 46yrs 1840
Parish: St Andrew's Scots Church, Presbyterian, SYDNEY
Ref: V18401461 102
Ref: V1840487 103
I think you're correct, someone on Ancestry has her as Jean aka Jane but I didn't note it as it was only one person and there was no explanation for where Jean came from.
Well that certainly explains why she didn't come up on NSW births, deaths & marriages then!
Goodness, she didn't last long after arriving in the colony did she? :-\
Is there some way of obtaining a certificate/printed copy of this info?
Thanks Merlin.
B.
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Yes, Well found Merlin.
Cheers, JM
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Is there some way of obtaining a certificate/printed copy of this info?
You have three choices...
View the microfilms available at many larger libraries, FHS's & archives:
Vol 102=MFilm 5040 &/or Vol 103=MFilm 5041
Order a transcription from one of the Agents OR copy a from the NSW BDM:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
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Is there some way of obtaining a certificate/printed copy of this info?
You have three choices...
View the microfilms available at many larger libraries, FHS's & archives:
Vol 102=MFilm 5040 &/or Vol 103=MFilm 5041
Order a transcription from one of the Agents OR copy a from the NSW BDM:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
oh yes, I only saw this on that page:
"The NSW Registry of Births Deaths & Marriages has records of births, deaths and marriages in NSW from 1856."
and missed this:
"Early church records from 1788 to 1855 are also available."
I have now ordered the record, I'll come and update if it provides good info :D
B.
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I'm seeking info on:
Jane Bain (nee McKay)
b abt. 1792 Montrose, Scotland
widowed between 1832-38
arrived NSW in 1838 on the 'Portland' (aged 46)
However, I've not been able to find any further trace of their mother Jane after her arrival in NSW, so some help with tracking down this elusive woman would be most appreciated!
This death looks to be a high possibility:
Jean BAIN age 46yrs 1840
Parish: St Andrew's Scots Church, Presbyterian, SYDNEY
Ref: V18401461 102
Ref: V1840487 103
(I wonder what did become of Jane jnr then?)
That 1840 burial info found by Merlin drills down to the last week of September 1840 at the NSW BDM online INDEX website.
Over at the NSW State Records website, there's an INDEX listing for a 9 year old Jane BAIN being committed to the Female Protestant Orphan School 25 September 1840. Here's the live link to that index, where there's the option to purchase the record that the index points to. The record itself should help you to confirm or eliminate if that 9 year old was your Jane's daughter.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-education-and-child-welfare-records/index-to-child-care-and-protection/index-to-child-care-and-protection
Cheers, JM
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I'm seeking info on:
Jane Bain (nee McKay)
b abt. 1792 Montrose, Scotland
widowed between 1832-38
arrived NSW in 1838 on the 'Portland' (aged 46)
However, I've not been able to find any further trace of their mother Jane after her arrival in NSW, so some help with tracking down this elusive woman would be most appreciated!
This death looks to be a high possibility:
Jean BAIN age 46yrs 1840
Parish: St Andrew's Scots Church, Presbyterian, SYDNEY
Ref: V18401461 102
Ref: V1840487 103
(I wonder what did become of Jane jnr then?)
That 1840 burial info found by Merlin drills down to the last week of September 1840 at the NSW BDM online INDEX website.
Over at the NSW State Records website, there's an INDEX listing for a 9 year old Jane BAIN being committed to the Female Protestant Orphan School 25 September 1840. Here's the live link to that index, where there's the option to purchase the record that the index points to. The record itself should help you to confirm or eliminate if that 9 year old was your Jane's daughter.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-education-and-child-welfare-records/index-to-child-care-and-protection/index-to-child-care-and-protection
Cheers, JM
If it is 'my' Jane I find it quite sad that she ended up in an orphan school when she had 3 older sisters that could have taken her in.
:(
Looks like I'll have to order the record to find out, hopefully it will have her parents names on it.
Thanks JM
B.
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Well I recieved the Orphan School record from NSW yesterday and it states that Jane was:
"Given to her brother in law Alex Clugston by the Governors order dated 14th June 1841 old book folio"
It appears that since the Clugstons were in VIC it may have taken some time after Jane Snr's death to arrange for Alex to go from Vic to NSW to collect Jane Jnr.
I'm still puzzled as to why she didn't end up with one of the siblings that was still in NSW but I guess I'll never know the answer to that, at least she ended up with family eventually though.
Thanks everyone for the help, I would never have untangled this without it :)
B.
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So, in 1841 Alex CLUGSTON became her legal guardian/protector. So she remained in NSW with her sister's family, (the sister who was the wife of Alex Clugston). Afterall, at that time, New South Wales included what is now Victoria. It would have taken some time for all the information to be exchanged simply because the mails went by sea, and the overland routes were not yet fully established.
Cheers, JM
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So, from the NSW SRO online index for Depasturing Licenses, Alex must have moved to Sydney,
Alexander CLUGSTON of Sydney, obtained a licence 30 Sept 1841 for depasturing his stock at Kerro, in the Maneroo district.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/pioneers.htm
Cheers, JM
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So, from the NSW SRO online index for Depasturing Licenses, Alex must have moved to Sydney,
Alexander CLUGSTON of Sydney, obtained a licence 30 Sept 1841 for depasturing his stock at Kerro, in the Maneroo district.
http://www.monaropioneers.com/pioneers.htm
Cheers, JM
How interesting!
That's the region where his wifes other sisters were; my ancestor Elizabeth Bain & husband Thomas Appleby lived in the Canberra area and some of their children raised their families in the Braidwood & Golburn region. Similarly, other sister Mary, married John Ferguson then Samuel Headcroft and raised her family in the Milton & Ulladulla area.
For those not familiar with NSW, most of these places are within about 100kms of each other.
Strange though, I have info that suggests that some of the Clugston children (of which there were at least 11), married and died in Victoria, including Henrietta (Jnr.) who married William Lidner in 1861 (she as 16), and died in Williamstown in 1920.
Perhaps the family did go to NSW but then returned to VIC at some stage?
Thanks,
Belinda.
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That's the region where his wifes other sisters were; my ancestor Elizabeth Bain & husband Thomas Appleby lived in the Canberra area and some of their children raised their families in the Braidwood & Golburn region. Similarly, other sister Mary, married John Ferguson then Samuel Headcroft and raised her family in the Milton & Ulladulla area.
For those not familiar with NSW, most of these places are within about 100kms of each other.
Strange though, I have info that suggests that some of the Clugston children (of which there were at least 11), married and died in Victoria, including Henrietta (Jnr.) who married William Lidner in 1861 (she as 16), and died in Williamstown in 1920.
Perhaps the family did go to NSW but then returned to VIC at some stage?
May I please again mention that the colony of Victoria was NOT formed until 1851 when it was hived off from the colony of New South Wales.
But "British, White" people moved into the Districts that became Victoria in the 1840s particularly after transportation of convicts to NSW effectively ceased in 1840. Then there was a labour shortage and there was a significant economic downturn, caused in part by adverse climate conditions, and in part by poor husbandry of a generation or so dating as early as the encroachment of settlers of the districts referred to by the various NSW Governors as "settled districts" and "outside the settled districts"....
Batman's purchase of what became Melbourne dates from June 1835. The Henty brothers earlier settlement at Portland dates from 1834. Of course there's Hume and Hovell's expedition to Corio Bay which was (from school days memory) about 1824 and Thomas Livingstone Mitchell's Australia Felix is from the 1830s.... (Fingers crossed I am remembering these names and years)....
So there's the spreading of British focused settlements radiating out from Sydney Town throughout the years before Gold Fever hit the news in 1851 in both colonies .... and then the rapid population growth brought shiploads and shiploads of people seeking their own immediate fortunes....
I think Canberra to Milton is about 200 Kms, and may I please also gently note that there were no motor cars, no macadamised roads, and there was and still is the Great Dividing Range of Mountains to be crossed from "Canberry" to Braidwood, from Goulburn to Milton, etc etc. Oxen wagons usually travelled at about 12 miles per day. Yass Plains to Milton is about 240 kms.
Cheers, JM
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In your CLUGSTON family tree, have you identified this woman, Jane CLUGSTON?
Is it possible Jane used the CLUGSTON family name?
1529/1860 KELLY James
CLUGSTON Jane
COOMA
Sue
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May I please again mention that the colony of Victoria was NOT formed until 1851 when it was hived off from the colony of New South Wales.
But "British, White" people moved into the Districts that became Victoria in the 1840s particularly after transportation of convicts to NSW effectively ceased in 1840. Then there was a labour shortage and there was a significant economic downturn, caused in part by adverse climate conditions, and in part by poor husbandry of a generation or so dating as early as the encroachment of settlers of the districts referred to by the various NSW Governors as "settled districts" and "outside the settled districts"....
Batman's purchase of what became Melbourne dates from June 1835. The Henty brothers earlier settlement at Portland dates from 1834. Of course there's Hume and Hovell's expedition to Corio Bay which was (from school days memory) about 1824 and Thomas Livingstone Mitchell's Australia Felix is from the 1830s.... (Fingers crossed I am remembering these names and years)....
So there's the spreading of British focused settlements radiating out from Sydney Town throughout the years before Gold Fever hit the news in 1851 in both colonies .... and then the rapid population growth brought shiploads and shiploads of people seeking their own immediate fortunes....
I think Canberra to Milton is about 200 Kms, and may I please also gently note that there were no motor cars, no macadamised roads, and there was and still is the Great Dividing Range of Mountains to be crossed from "Canberry" to Braidwood, from Goulburn to Milton, etc etc. Oxen wagons usually travelled at about 12 miles per day. Yass Plains to Milton is about 240 kms.
Cheers, JM
Well yes, I am aware of those facts about the colonies of Vic & NSW, I'm merely speaking in modern geographic terms for simplicity.
Your point about modern roads and ox travel is noted. I was aware of this having a husband who has been a historian and worked in the museum industry for several decades; much of that time spent with horse drawn and early motor vehicles, so some of his enthusiasm has rubbed off over the years. ;)
The fact remains however that despite the tyranny of distance and difficulties of travel, Bain/Appleby family members did live in these places, and the Clugstons did appear to have started out in "NSW" before travelling to "VIC" and then apparently returning to "NSW".
Thanks,
B.
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Who was Alexander CLUGSTONE, holding the Publican's Licence for the Commercial Hotel SYDNEY in 1840, 1841, 1842.... was he not Jane's guardian?
Cheers, JM
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In your CLUGSTON family tree, have you identified this woman, Jane CLUGSTON?
Is it possible Jane used the CLUGSTON family name?
1529/1860 KELLY James
CLUGSTON Jane
COOMA
Sue
Henrietta and Alex Clugstons youngest child was Jane but she wasn't even born until 1860 so that can't possibly be her.
Could maybe, possibly be Jane Bain?
I did find a Jane Bain that married a William Neilson/Nelson in Victoria (town unknown) in 1857 which I intially though might be a lead but I found someone on Ancestry with this couple in her tree(s), and she has two versions of Jane with each having different people for the parents, neither being James Bain & Jane McKay, just to throw another spanner in the works!
Thanks,
B.
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Who was Alexander CLUGSTONE, holding the Publican's Licence for the Commercial Hotel SYDNEY in 1840, 1841, 1842.... was he not Jane's guardian?
Cheers, JM
Potentially. I'm not sure how/if there's a means of determining that for certain though. I did think Clugston would be a faily rare name but it seems (at least from searching Ancestry) that's not entirely the case so I'm not going to take it for granted, lol.
Thanks,
B.
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Where were the children of Henrietta and Alexander born? There's baptisms in Sydney under both spellings, from 1838 onwards
1838
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDG-R9X
1840
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDG-RZS
1842
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDP-HXW
Dec 1844
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTDZ-R6V
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHJ-81Q
Cheers, JM
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What documents do you hold to show that Alexander and Henrietta were settled in 1840-1841 in what became Victoria?
I can see that there's an Alexander CLUGSTONE arriving in Sydney on the ship Portland in 1837. He came with a wife.
Cheers, JM
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Yes I've just gone and had a look at that and there are children under NSW births deaths and marriages from 1838 - 1844; between BDM and Ancestry I found:
John Clugston b. 1838, Sydney
John Clugston b. 1839, Sydney
James Clugston b. 1839, Sydney
James Clugston b. 1840, Sydney
William Clugston b. 1842, Sydney
Henrietta Clugston b. 1844, Sydney
I can't search VIC BDM directly but on Ancestry Birth & Death indexes I found the following all with parents Alexander & Henrietta:
Margaret Clugston b. 1848, Edwa. (?) Victoria
Robert Clugston b. 1850, Edwa. Victoria
Alexander Clugstone b. 1854, Campbells Creek, Victoria
Mary Ann Clugston b. 1857, Castlemaine, Vic
Jessey Clugston b. 1860, Amehurst, Vic
Along with a death for Henrietta (1860 - VIC) and Alexander Clugston is on the Electoral Rolls at Maldon in 1856.
So they started in Sydney and then came to the VIC goldfields ... and stayed here .... maybe.
My head hurts.
Thanks,
B.
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What documents do you hold to show that Alexander and Henrietta were settled in 1840-1841 in what became Victoria?
I can see that there's an Alexander CLUGSTONE arriving in Sydney on the ship Portland in 1837. He came with a wife.
Cheers, JM
Yes that's them. I've downloaded the document from Ancestry and it says they married on board ship, she was travelling with her sister Mary. The rest of the Bains (Jane jnr, brother James, sister Elizabeth & their mother Jane) came the following year, also on the Portland out of Greenock.
All I had to go on for the "Vic" timeline was an email someone had sent me which I can't locate now :-\ , however it certainly seems that was incorrect intel and that the Clugstons didn't go to "Victoria" until quite some time later.
The only thing I have atm which marks that change in location is the birth of Margaret in 1848 at Edwa. Victoria (wherever that is), and by this stage their ward Jane Bain would have been 16 years old so could have either gone with them or stayed in Sydney.
There wasn't much in the way of a useful lead for a Jane Bain of the right age on the NSW BDM site but there is that 1860 m. of a Jane Clugston to James Kelly in Cooma that Sue found, so that might be my next angle to research.
Thanks,
B.
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Yes, I think you will find they started in Sydney, and then moved south perhaps after Alex may have had an insolvency issue.
NSW State Records Office
Alexander CLUGSTONE of Kent St, Sydney a Publican was sequested 14 Nov 1843 and the certificate issued 11 June 1844.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=10&new=1
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps they had misunderstood that Portland was the name of the ship, and NOT the location, afterall there is Portland, the city in Victoria :)
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31721488 11 Aug 1838 Colonist
BIRTH at Commercial Wharf (Sydney CBD)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/31725006 9 May 1840 Colonist
BIRTH at her residence King St (Sydney CBD)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12875617 9 June 1842 Sydney Herald
BIRTH at her residence, Commercial Hotel, King St (in Sydney CBD)
Off to Port Phillip, by a brig, Mrs A Clugston, two sons and a daughter
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12882890 17 Oct 1845 smh
Cheers, JM
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Have found a tree that states the Jane Clugston that married James Kelly arrived in Australia from Co Armagh in 1856 with her brother Robert and SIL. So don't think this is related to your family.
Cheers Sue
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Have found a tree that states the Jane Clugston that married James Kelly arrived in Australia from Co Armagh in 1856 with her brother Robert and SIL. So don't think this is related to your family.
Cheers Sue
Wow, there's many a submitted tree that has mismashed info :) Likely I have found another .... and this one has uploaded the image from NSW BDM for that very marriage...
My transcription :
23 February 1860
Christchurch
Cooma
James KELLY, Bachelor and Jane CLUGSTON, Spinster
Were married in the Church of England, Cooma
The witnesses were Joseph WOODCROFT & Eliza HARVEY.
Bride, Groom, and Joseph Woodcroft signed, Eliza made her mark
Thomas DRUITT was the Rev’d
It is the older form NSW BDM marriage cert that is uploaded to a submitted tree (Issued 1996).
Now, I am quite concerned :o
I have quite a collection of NSW BDM marriage certs.... and this one seems to have been mangled somewhat ....
There is information ADDED to that image that has NOT been initialled by the NSW BDM. And some of that information is in modern cursive hand, ie possibly added in the last fifteen to twenty years.
The marriage registration does show that the NSW BDM have reconciled their records to the church records, and that that reconciliation was completed in respect of columns 5, 7, 9, 10 from Church Register 1353 under W C L Bayliz on 16.11.36.
So, that reconciliation resulted in the words
“unknown” being added to Column 5, (Birthplace)
“unknown” being added to Column 7 (Ages)
“Unknown” being added to Column 9 (parents)
“unknown” being added to Column 10 (occupations of fathers)
Now, the following alterations to that 1936 reconciliation:
(perhaps the person who obtained the NSW BDM cert went back to Cooma and located the parish register?)
Column 5
(Groom’s birth place, written in very modern post 1960s style handwriting ) Liverpool NSW
(Bride’s birth place same handwriting reads :) Billytemple, Ireland
Col 7
(Groom’s Age) 21
(Bride’s Age) 19 (JM notes, umm…. A person not yet 21 years of age was not yet old enough to give their own consent to marriage, so whoever did these alterations has NOT noted the name of the person giving consent, which will be on at least ONE of the C of E parish registers but NSW BDM has only reconciled to ONE of these, not to two or more)….
Col 9
(Groom’s parents) Michael KELLY and Jane --------------
(Bride’s parents) Thomas CLUGSTON and Jane MARTIN
Col 10
(Groom’s Dad’s occupation) Labourer
(Bride’s Dad’s occupation) Stonemason
The witnesses were Joseph WOODCROFT AND Eliza HARVEY.
Bride, Groom, and Joseph Woodcroft signed, Eliza made her mark
Thomas DRUITT was the Rev’d
Both the Bride and the Groom were from Bunyan (place of residence)
I attach a snip showing two of the changes in modern hand. I am quite certain that style of writing (Liverpool NSW, Billytemple, Ireland) was NOT even taught in NSW until the mid 1960s, and of course NSW BDM employees until post 1970s were basically drawn from NSW residents. ::)
ADD
I think the possible "source" of the (recently added) info is likely from Jane KELLY's death cert, which of course is not first hand info. Perhaps save up some pennies and consider obtaining an official transcription, as these do note the reconciliation process and the actual words on the NSW BDM registration.
Cheers, JM