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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: jennywren001 on Sunday 08 February 15 17:24 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
William Easton married Isabella Wallace in 1846 the banns were called in Logie Pert and Montrose. Second marriage for both of them - Isabella was the widow of John Rae. William's wife Elizabeth Wallace died sometime between 1842 and 1846. I'm assuming Isabella was not Elizabeth's sister as this kind of union was not permitted by the church at that date. Is that a safe assumption to make? Or better - is that a measured consideration to take - no safe assumptions ever I fear....
Jen
PS Monica I've scoffed all the virtual cake but it must be good stuff as I'm 25 pages in ;D
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Nothing to do with Scotland, but I believe I've got at least a couple of instances - in the forbidden period - where the widower married his dead wife's sister. Or maybe it's just coincidence that two women with the same surname had a father with the same forename and occupation :o :o :o
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I also have an instance of a widower marrying their wife's sister as well, but at a later date.
flst
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Hi Everyone,
William Easton married Isabella Wallace in 1846 the banns were called in Logie Pert and Montrose. Second marriage for both of them - Isabella was the widow of John Rae. William's wife Elizabeth Wallace died sometime between 1842 and 1846. I'm assuming Isabella was not Elizabeth's sister as this kind of union was not permitted by the church at that date. Is that a safe assumption to make? Or better - is that a measured consideration to take - no safe assumptions ever I fear....
Jen
PS Monica I've scoffed all the virtual cake but it must be good stuff as I'm 25 pages in ;D
The law changed in 1907 in England to allow the sister of a dead wife to marry the widower.
Not sure about Scotland which in general was much more "liberal" in recognising marriages in a variety of forms
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceased_Wife%27s_Sister%27s_Marriage_Act_1907
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Although not Scorland, I also have several instances of a man marrying his late wife's sister, often these marriage occurred in places where the couple were unknown. Having said that, I have one couple going to London to do the deed, another in the next parish, where they may well have been known, and a third married after banns in their home village parish where they had lived all their lives.
These were all in the mid 1850's.
Jebber
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Thank you deebel. Trying to remember the date when it became legal for these parties to marry in England at least. Haven't seen a corresponding date for Scotland. May be different?
Monica
PS: Jen, the weather is cold and miserable. Enjoy your research before weather gets warmer and other things detract :)
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Can't see anything referred to that type of marriage here www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
Could it have fallen under "irregular marriages"?
Lots of experts here on Scottish law on the Scottish RC pages.... Hopefully someone can add the appropriate detail.
Monica
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I have an instance in my own family in Cambridge, my grandmother's older sister married and subsequently died; her widower remarried and his second wife also died. He then married my grandmother's younger sister as his third attempt. She always insisted there were no skeletons in her side of the family; but she was a witness at this wedding! All 1890s to 1900s so forbidden period.
More recently in the 1970s and 1980s, a friend of mine did it twice, serially marrying 3 sisters, by that time of course entirely legal.
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Thanks everyone - seems this was a bit of a hot topic in Victorian times.
.... and a third married after banns in their home village parish where they had lived all their lives. These were all in the mid 1850's.
Jebber
That's what I was afraid of Jebber I could see this happening in larger towns but in places where everyone knew you business, I thought it would be picked up by the minister and they'd get a proper telling off.
Jen
Monica - I'm on a mission complete by next weekend then pass to relatives for comment - wish I'd worked this hard at school ::)
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The forbidden degrees of marriage in Scotland between 1567 and 1986 were those contained within Leviticus Chapter 18, based upon the translation in the Geneva Bible of 1562. The bulk of the prohibited degrees covered ascendants and descendants, including aunts
Verse 16 provided "Thou shalt not discover the shame of thy brothers wife: (for) it is thy
brothers shame" Thus, if your brother died you could not marry his widow. However, that did not preclude you marrying your wife's sister, until 1917 when the High Court ruled in H M Advocate v Aikman and Martin 1917 J.C. 8 that that where a relationship between a man and woman is expressed, the corresponding relationship between a woman and a man is implied.
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Redroger, 3 sisters, goodness...regardless of the period!
Monica
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Yes, When I noticed that his wife seemed to have got younger i asked an acquaintance who lived nearer than I did, and got the full detail.
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If my sister in law is reading this, can I assure her that, in the event of my wife dying first, she can forget it!
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The problem with Scottish law on the subject is the Marriage Acts allowed such a union as they were updated but the Incest Act 1567 prohibited it.
Leaving a very dubious situation from 1567 until 1977
Cheers
Guy
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Interesting subject. Did it also work the other way? A widow marrying her dead husband's brother? Kit
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In the Scottish fishing villages it was common to marry relatives. I had a great-uncle who was married 3 times, and all his wives were related to him, the 2nd and 3rd ones being sisters (and his 2nd cousins). I was told that when his 2nd wife, Annie, died, her sister Lizzie came along from the next village to keep house for him, but of course tongues started wagging, and one day Annie and Lizzie's old mother came to the house and said, 'John, wad ye no' tak Lizzie tae wife?', which he duly did.
I know of another fisherman in the same village who was married twice, and his wives weren't related, but they were both called Janet Brown. I suppose it saved him having to memorise another name.
Harry
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Here's another interesting example from my own family. My mother came from Crail in Fife, and I was born in my granny's house there. My maternal grandfather in Crail had a cousin who was married twice, and this man's second wife was the daughter of one of his cousins, i.e. his 1st cousin once removed.
Think of one of your cousins, who has children, then imagine marrying your cousin's son or daughter. I'm surprised it was allowed.
Harry
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I can't speak for Scotland, but in England it is perfectly legal for first cousins to marry, so marrying a the offspring of a cousin would certainly be allowed.
Jebber
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My grandmother's parents were first cousins once removed, twice over, because they were both descended from a pair of brothers who married a pair of sisters.
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My grandmother's parents were first cousins once removed, twice over, because they were both descended from a pair of brothers who married a pair of sisters.
That kind of complicated scenario is typical of two fishing villages I had ancestors in - Cellardyke in Fife, and Auchmithie in Angus. I like to think that working out who was related to whom (twice or three times over) helps to regenerate my brain-cells and keep dementia at bay.
Harry
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I like to think that working out who was related to whom (twice or three times over) helps to regenerate my brain-cells and keep dementia at bay.
Quite. And that example is only part of it - the pair of sisters belonged to a family that made quite a habit of marrying cousins.
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There are very many instances in English villages in the 19th century of marriages outside the permitted limits. To such an extent that I am at least my own 4th cousin (which probably accounts for it!) I think in many cases there were far too few couples in a community for the Church rules on relationship to be observed; and it is apparent that many vicars (and Free Church Ministers) turned a blind eye to the requirements.
In towns and cities the rule would have been far easier to evade.
I remember when I was a teenager a friend of mine started a relationship with his niece; they got on well and everything seemed to be progressing. Things were stopped by his mother and the girl's grandmother (same person of course) who as a church person insisted that the relationship was illegal in the eyes of God! The local vicar hadn't noticed.
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..the relationship was illegal in the eyes of God.
And in the eyes of the law too (at least a marriage would be illegal). I don't know whether incest is actually a crime or not.
Edit - just checked, and it is illegal, punishable by up to 2 years in prison
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Thanks, I had realised that but the legal situation is a little more complex. According to a recent letter from Anthony Joseph Emeritus President Jewish Genealogical Society of Great Britain in Family Tree an Uncle /Niece marriage is allowable under Jewish Law; but NOT an Aunt/Nephew marriage. Though an Uncle/Niece marriage is illegal under English Law, if the marriage has taken place overseas the couple can live together in the UK lawfully as husband and wife.
That is one situation clearly shown, i would expect there are others emanating from other faiths.
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Scottish law - you can marry your first cousin and marry your late sisters/brothers spouse
English law - first cousin marriage are discouraged by are legal - marrying you sister/brother spouse was legal up to around 17/18 century - legislation was repealed in the 1950's/60's.
Uncle/niece & aunt/nephew marriage would depend on the blood link for instance if the Uncle or Aunt married into a family there is no blood link.
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Scottish law - you can marry your first cousin and marry your late sisters/brothers spouse
English law - first cousin marriage are discouraged by are legal - marrying you sister/brother spouse was legal up to around 17/18 century - legislation was repealed in the 1950's/60's.
I knew of a case around 60 years ago in Boston where identical twin brothers married identical twin sisters. Hopefully their offspring( if any) did not repeat the process.
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I don't know about the twin thing, but certainly two brothers marrying two sisters was not unknown in my neck of the woods and has happened in my own family.
Harry
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Indeed. I even hav a case of three siblings marrying three siblings. Though as far as I know none of the later generations intermarried.
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Indeed. I even hav a case of three siblings marrying three siblings. Though as far as I know none of the later generations intermarried.
In the fishing villages where the man might be away from home for days at a time, and there were nets to be mended and lines to be baited, a man literally couldn't function without a woman at home, especially if there were young children to look after. So when a wife and mother died her husband might get married again with what seems to us like indecent haste, but it was a case of needs must. And that was when a man might marry his cousin or his late wife's sister, because let's face it he hadn't got the time or the opportunity to go courting a stranger (unless he clicked with a woman in another port, of course). Sentimentality and romance didn't come into it.
Harry
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Just a little more confusion, and not quite the same problem. Widower of sister marries widow of brother.
So Joseph Richard marries Catherine Lily and Eliza marries Alfred. Joseph Richard and Eliza die, so Catherine Lily marries Alfred. It took me a while to work it out!
AND - I've just looked at the marriage record of Alfred and Eliza - AND Joseph Richard is a witness :o :o Isn't family history wonderful :-X
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In my home village two sisters called Keay married David Moncrieff and John Gardner respectively. David Moncrieff died, leaving Kate Keay a widow, and Kate's sister who was married to John Gardner died, so Kate Keay married her widowed brother-in-law John Gardner.
Marrying a widower could be a chancy business. In 1807 a widower in Pittenweem called John Meldrum who had either six or seven children married Christian Keay of Cellardyke. She was pregnant at the time, to judge from when their son John Meldrum junior was born. Not long after they were married, John Meldrum senior died, and Christian seems to have panicked at the thought of becoming a single mother with a brood of strange kids to bring up, because she skedaddled back home to Cellardyke, where her son by John was born later that year. I've seen the entry in the Pittenweem kirk-session records where the session clerk records having written to John Meldrum's eldest daughter, who is working away from home, saying that if she consents to come home and look after her younger siblings, the kirk-session will pay her a small weekly wage.
Christian Keay never married again, and in the 1841 census she is lodging with her brother David Keay in Cellardyke - the man who was married to two different wives called Janet Brown.
Harry
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I have 2 sisters, Agnes and Jeanie Laurie, marrying twin brothers, James and Thomas Mulgrew. The girls' brother, James, married another woman, Jeanie, who went on to marry yet another Mulgrew brother, John, when her first husband died!
When Thomas Mulgrew died, Jeanie, went on to remarry and, spookily, married a chap with the same name as my husband!
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I have many instances in my family tree where a man/woman marries the sister/brother of the deceased spouse.
I also have a family where a widowed father and two of his daughters ( from his 1st marriage)... all married siblings!
The relationships are mind boggling..
Stepmother or sister in law?
Sons in law or brothers in law?
Step- mother in law or sister ?
Worse still... all 3 couples had children from the marriages!
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I have 2 sisters, Agnes and Jeanie Laurie, marrying twin brothers, James and Thomas Mulgrew. The girls' brother, James, married another woman, Jeanie, who went on to marry yet another Mulgrew brother, John, when her first husband died!
When Thomas Mulgrew died, Jeanie, went on to remarry and, spookily, married a chap with the same name as my husband!
I can imagine a scenario where (forgive me!) a child of one of these marriages leaves some of his/her DNA at a murder scene, and a whole bunch of their cousins would then be in the frame. There would be a lot of shared Y DNA and also mtDNA.
Harry
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I don't know about the twin thing, but certainly two brothers marrying two sisters was not unknown in my neck of the woods and has happened in my own family.
Harry
My maternal grandparents (all passed) were Brother/Brother marrying Sister/Sister ie Munn/Simpson Rennie married Thelma and then Hillary married Laurel
And I have found 3 more lots going further back
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I've noticed it quite a few times and once or twice with distant relations in my tree, during the period when it wasn't allowed. Though I've noticed its with quite well to do people! Quite morbid but I think marriage was rarely about love back then.
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Remember that at the time concerned there was no welfare state; and marriages were often contracted a very short while after the death of the first wife in order to provide security for the children from the first union. In my paternal tree I have one case where a farmer's wife bore 13 children to her first husband, he died, shed then married by relative and bore him 3 more. He went from farm labourer to farmer in one easy move. This was before women had property rights and on marriage he became the farm owner c1850 Lincolnshire
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I've just discovered this morning that in this instance William Easton did not marry his dead wife's sister. Sometimes you just get lucky. ;D
Yesterday, I finished writing up my Russell branch more than a little disappointed that I had not been able to find Charlotte Easton's grandparents but glad I was done and 'only' facing the editing process ::). Couldn't let it lie...woke up this morning thinking if I get one of Charlotte's sibling's death certificates maybe I'll get a clue - long shot I know and nothing helpful on her brother David's :(. But, sister Betsy who died in 1858 was another matter - her uncle signed her death certificate a William Wallace living in Logie Pert...tracked him back and forwards in the census then found his death certificate which give's his parents and therefore Elizabeth's as Peter (Charlotte has a brother called Peter) Wallace and Elspeth Walker. Isabella Wallace, William's second wife dies in 1863 and her parents are Thomas Wallace and Georgina Hogg so definitely not sisters....
Jen
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Widowed men often *had* to remarry if they wanted to keep their children, as it wasn't acceptable back in the day for a man to raise children on his own. It needed to be done quickly, so a maiden sister-in-law would be a pretty convenient choice.