RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: tidybooks on Sunday 08 February 15 12:29 GMT (UK)
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See article in the Scotsman,
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01epk/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01epk/)
Hopefully they look after the interests of the genealogists who use this place as well. The building and frontage are synonymous with the east end of Princes Street, hopefully it does not get turned into some modern hotel.
Tom
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I think sense will prevail.
There is nowhere in Edinburgh as accessible for travellers by train/bus. Logically a business plan would have to allow for loss of revenue from visitors who either don't have a car or don't drive.
If visitors lose half the day trying to find parking or have the added expense of further buses or taxi then the day costs becomes considerably more expensive, for some prohibitive.
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Would be shocking if it is closed or was relocated elsewhere :-\ It is a building of national importance, like many others are really. Many changes of a similar nature have taken place in London (for example, the building of the National Archives building in Kew), but Edinburgh is not London (different issues, different dynamics). Hopefully a solution will be found...
Monica
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Often wonder who thinks up these things where they are suggesting placing it is approx. 6 miles west of where it is sited at the moment in the centre of Edinburgh.
It was custom built and beautiful building I dread to think what it would turn into .
midlad
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Let us hope sanity prevails. They have already closed one archive.
Is it possible for people to lobby their MSPs?
I no longer live in Scotland, so I'm not sure who is ultimately responsible for any decision.
The fact that it is so near bus and train links makes it much easier to get to then the likes of Kew.
The atmosphere is very good and most mss readily available.
Sometimes I have had to order up documents, but that really was not a problem.
I have found the staff very helpful
What do the staff think of the proposed change?
Helenor Jones
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They have already closed one archive.
I presume you mean West Register House? That was a great loss - and moving to Sighthill?? When WRH closed it meant one could no longer see original plans; at GRH you have to request a digitisation at least 10 days before your visit; if you really need to see the original at Sighthill you are allowed to book a Wednesday am or pm slot. This is not the 'public access' presumed by the donors of all the record to be a consequence of their deposits. The storage & preservation of the records is after all funded by the general public in one way or another & they are gradually having access reduced and removed.
And why can one only access the digital copy onsite at GRH? Surely a benefit of digitisation [as well as preservation which I fully understand] is that it can be consulted anytime, anywhere? In my opinion access to the records service has deteriorated & looks set to continue to do so.
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Yes that is what I meant. Even when it was open, there were documents which I had to order in advance. I am sorry to hear that the service has deteriorated.
Just imagine, though, in Wales we have to travel to Aberystwyth. The roads are "difficult" and there is no direct public transport link from South Wales. [We have to travel via Swansea up to Shrewsbury and then across - the routes which existed were of course destroyed by dear Mr Beeching!] When we want to use the archive we "save up" our queries and go for a few days mid week.
Our local archive in Carmarthen has been closed to the public for over a year because of "mold".
Access to documents is crucial if we are not to end up with people regurgitating others' research.
I began working in research in 1966, and, although the internet has opened up some documentation it has also, it seems to me, to have been used as an excuse to limit the opening of archives and the use of archival material.
There, rant over.
Hope all goes well in Edinburgh
Helenor Jones
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Here's a link to Thomas Thomson House.
http://www.nas.gov.uk/about/map2.asp
No offence to anyone who lives in Sighthill, but it's a bit of a concrete jungle, miles from the city centre. The only time my wife and I ever go there is to take bulky rubbish items to the recycling tip, which is sensitively positioned next to Edinburgh College. Lucky students. What an environment to study in.
Years ago when I often visited the former Scottish Record Office next-door to the GRO, I occasionally requested a valuation roll and was told they were kept up at Sighthill and I would have to wait 24 hours. I didn't mind, as everything else I needed to look at, e.g. kirk-session and heritors' records, were kept in the SRO and only took minutes to arrive.
The prevailing wisdom in Edinburgh these days is, if it's a lovely old listed building, turn it into a luxury hotel. That was the fate of the Scotsman building at North Bridge, and the journos were decanted to a new building down near the Scottish parliament. Now that building has been sold too, to some games company, I believe, and the Scotchman has decamped again, to an anonymous office building at Orchard Brae, facing the Dean cemetery, which should concentrate their minds.
A luxury hotel is also the latest fate proposed for the iconic former Royal High School building on Calton Hill, which was once touted as the home of the parliament. Plans and mock-ups have appeared in the local press. I hope something positive is done with it soon as it is apparently in a dire state inside after years of neglect.
Harry
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Rumour in NRH last week said that there had already been hotel companies showing interest in RH and/or NRH.
I will certainly be lobbying my MSP and I urge everyone else who lives in Scotland to do the same. If you're not in Scotland, write to First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. Make the point that making the archives difficult to get to will be detrimental to ancestral tourism.
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I tend to take a different view.
Surely the most important aspect is whether the building is suitable for today's (and future) use as an archive?
That is the overriding question. If the answer is yes then there is no reason to move. If the answer is no, and the building cannot be expanded, then a move is essential.
Only after that question has been answered fully should we look at future use of the building.
That is when questions need to be asked about the importance of both the external structure and the internal structure.
If the building is important both internally and externally then any future use must be sympathetic to that.
If either the internal structure or the external structure is important than the future use must be determined accordingly.
Many of the valued old buildings we have are valued today because of how they have developed over their lifetime, the exceptional few are valued because they have changed little in their lifetime and are still fulfilling the use they were designed for.
Register House was one of the first major government buildings to be constructed in Britain and the earliest purpose-built record repository in Britain.
As such there is no doubt about its importance to the history of Britain which is reflected in its listed building “A” status.
Cheers
Guy
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It is a building of national importance,
Monica
I would like to take issue with this statement.
Make that INTERnational importance!!
I am not surprised that this beautiful historic building has been earmarked for a commercial enterprise - there is much money to be made by it's sale and its prime position is one reason among many.
It should be kept as it is, and it's current use retained, and if expansion is required, then the collection could be split and part of it moved to other premises.
The building would be ruined if it were to be adapted for any other purpose.
Are there any petitions to try to prevent this occurring?
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Surely the most important aspect is whether the building is suitable for today's (and future) use as an archive?
No, I disagree with you. Quite strongly.
The most important thing is preserving convenient access for users. Putting the whole thing in a seedy peripheral industrial estate with a shortage of parking* and poor public transport* would be catastrophic. If people cannot easily get there, they won't go, and if they don't go the demand for the service will fall and that will provide the Powers That Be with a pretext for reducing it still further.
(*How are the staff going to get to work when the nearest bus stop is 10 minutes' walk away, and there's no parking?)
That could mean further reductions in opening times (or ultimately complete closure).
It could mean that archive material is dispersed or even destroyed. Remember djct in an earlier thread here telling us how (s)he was involved in the destruction of various records which no-one throught would be useful, but which would now have been extremely useful and much sought after?
There must be ways of economising that would still maintain city centre access to the material which is most in demand. I understand that it isn't possible to keep everything in the same place, but I don't think that moving lock, stock and barrel to Sighthill, let alone building a new Records centre somewhere out in the sticks, is the answer.
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Other fine buildings in Edinburgh which have been turned to more commercial uses include the former General Post Office (GPO) at the foot of the Bridges, and of course numerous banks and other former financial institutions in George Street, which are now mostly pubs. I was getting hardened to it, but even I was taken aback when I read of plans to convert the former Charlotte Baptist Chapel at the west end of Rose Street into a mega-pub on several floors. As if the "amber mile" didn't have enough pubs as it is! Knowing the Baptist take on strong drink, I'm amazed at them possibly selling out to a pub chain. Unlike most Baptist chapels, it's a fine and striking building.
Harry
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Surely the most important aspect is whether the building is suitable for today's (and future) use as an archive?
No, I disagree with you. Quite strongly.
The most important thing is preserving convenient access for users. Putting the whole thing in a seedy peripheral industrial estate with a shortage of parking* and poor public transport* would be catastrophic. If people cannot easily get there, they won't go, and if they don't go the demand for the service will fall and that will provide the Powers That Be with a pretext for reducing it still further.
(*How are the staff going to get to work when the nearest bus stop is 10 minutes' walk away, and there's no parking?)
That could mean further reductions in opening times (or ultimately complete closure).
It could mean that archive material is dispersed or even destroyed. Remember djct in an earlier thread here telling us how (s)he was involved in the destruction of various records which no-one throught would be useful, but which would now have been extremely useful and much sought after?
There must be ways of economising that would still maintain city centre access to the material which is most in demand. I understand that it isn't possible to keep everything in the same place, but I don't think that moving lock, stock and barrel to Sighthill, let alone building a new Records centre somewhere out in the sticks, is the answer.
There is no disagreement there.
I was addressing the use of the building as an archive or the use of the building if it was deemed unsuitable in the 21st century.
The location of a replacement building is a separate issue. One radical idea would be to build an underground archive under part of Queen street gardens, but I would assume the cost would be prohibitive.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi All,
I have just noticed that a petition has been raised, I will add link to it, will all persons interesting in saving the GRO, please sign. Thanks.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01erd/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01erd/)
Tom
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Obviously a very emotive subject.
Yes, it's a beautiful building, there's no argument there, but it is listed and any future plans for an alternative use would be very strictly supervised.
If it is no longer exactly 'fit for purpose', then it's that purpose which should be concerning everyone.
I may be selfish, and I don't apologise for being so, but I'd gladly visit an out of town location whether it's an industrial estate or not. I'm well used to visiting Stirling Archives which is slap bang in the middle of Springkerse Industrial Estate but has ample free parking either directly outside the building or on the roads beside it. It has numerous bus stops around it and is only about a 10 minute walk from the centre of the town.
Personally, I'm not that familiar with Edinburgh, but after having spoken with a few friends who both live and work there, the general opinion is that the proposed new location is extremely easy to get to.
Anne
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It's years since I used to go there regularly, queuing on the steps outside until the place opened, but once we were ushered inside I remember that people who had come from afar, and had pre-booked, were attended to first, which was fair enough. They had come from all over the English-speaking world, especially north America. I imagine a lot of them would have been staying in hotels in or near the centre and Reg. House was within walking distance and easily found. Also, anyone coming into Edinburgh by train just had to climb up Waverley Steps and cross the road. So for accessibility the present site is hard to beat. You don't need to know your way around Edinburgh.
Having said that, I don't know how many people need to visit the place in person these days, with so many genealogical aids available on the internet.
Harry
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As it's been mentioned again, may I perhaps clarify my earlier post?
In the pre-internet era when huge bags of sheriff court records arrived at the depot in Corstorphine, there was simply no facility to keep them, and digitising was many years in the future. The records were in a dreadful state, sometimes covered in pigeon guano, and we had to wear masks when reading them. The rule then was that everything that did not involve land ownership, boundaries and the like was to be destroyed unless it was felt to be of historical importance. Two students were the sole arbiters of this.
My colleagues (both became eminent QCs - I did it for two years) and saved far more for posterity than the rules dictated, but there were hundreds of undefended paternity cases that appeared then to be of no historical interest. Where a case was defended there was usually some useful information in the case papers as to the lives of rural farmworkers, and these were kept.
Unfortunately for those who are now tracing their family tree and might like to know if paternity was ever alleged or determined in a court, it was simply impossible to justify keeping these paper records in an archive of boxes, and we hand to handwrite our own indexes (which were typed up months later without my knowledge so these records are also wildly inaccurate).
I now know and regret that there is no method of comparing court records to parish birth records, but I can fully understand the reason why the guidance we were given was in place over thirty years ago.
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I'm not sure who thinks that Sighthill Industrial Estate is easy to get to, unless you happen to live close to the Calder Road and are happy to walk in all weathers. There are buses past one end of it, and trams past the other, but no public transport that passes close to Thomas Thomson House. Also, there is already a shortage of parking in the industrial estate, and trying to get out of it in the rush hour is a nightmare.
Who says that GRH isn't fit for purpose? It is superbly fit for use by the public. It's a magnificent and impressive setting for the search rooms, conveniently sited for locals and visitors to access by bus, tram or train.
The genealogical aids on the internet are just the very tip of the iceberg. There are literally tons of documents available in the National Records over and above the BMDs on the Scotland's People web site.
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I can fully understand the reason why the guidance we were given was in place over thirty years ago.
Don't misunderstand me, I am not blaming you or anyone else. Attitudes change, and things 30+ years ago were different. I am merely pointing out that with hindsight (which is, as we all know, a wonderful thing) the guidance would not now be the same as it was then.
We just have to try not to make similar mistakes again.
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One thing's for sure - we can put forward our own personal points of view till the cows come home but whatever happens, we'll all just have to like it or lump it. ;D
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One thing's for sure - we can put forward our own personal points of view till the cows come home but whatever happens, we'll all just have to like it or lump it. ;D
Sadly, yes. But if enough of us write to our MSPs, and enough people from outside Scotland write to La Sturgeon, it just might help.
I have written to my MSP, and signed the change.org petition, even though I know it will result in further bombardment with requests to sign petitions about matters not relevant to me.
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Thank you for the link to the petition Tom. I will sign.
I understand that there are valid concerns on many levels regarding this. I am particularly concerned about the fabric of the building and it's (future) intended purpose.
I understand that it is a listed building and as such there are restrictions on what can and can't be done, but turning this into a hotel, which is presumably the most likely scenario, must, by the nature of hotel layout and facilities required, substantially alter the interior.
:-\
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If the GRO are moving from register House - it is a joke to suggest Sighthill - if it moves there has to be very intregated transport links, especially when a high proportion of users are older - it has to stay central
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it is a joke to suggest Sighthill
If only it were a joke. It's a potential disaster. :(
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Thank you for the link to the petition Tom. I have signed.
I have also sent it to others who may be interested. :-\
Who is/are the ultimate decision maker?
The Scottish Government? Edinburgh Council? Edinburgh Planning Committee? UK Government? Or some other entity?
Thanks
Helenor Jones
ps o/t The spell check really does not like my name! :'(
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Thank you for the link to the petition Tom. I have signed.
I have also sent it to others who may be interested. :-\
Who is/are the ultimate decision maker? The Scottish Government? Edinburgh Council? Edinburgh Planning Committee? UK Government? Or some other entity?
Thanks
Helenor Jones
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Who is/are the ultimate decision maker?
There are basically two decisions to be made. One would be to relocate the National Records and close and dispose of the building. That decision will be made by the Scottish Government.
The other would be to decide what then happens to the building. Any planning applications for change of use would be determined by the City of Edinburgh Council, who may choose to delegate the decision to either the Planning Committee or to council officals. There might be comments on the plans from other entities, for example Historic Scotland, which deals with listed buildings and is an arm of the Scottish Government, and heritage organisations such as the Cockburn Association or the Saltire Society.
There would be little point in contesting a planning application if the Scottish Government had already decided to close and dispose of the building.
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Thank you - then it makes sense for me to write to the Scottish Government as I now live outside Scotland.
Helenor Jones
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Further to Edinburgh City Council not being worthy custodians of fine old buildings, they don't even know what they own …
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/historic-landmark-lost-by-council-blunder-1-3691381
Harry
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Further to Edinburgh City Council not being worthy custodians of fine old buildings
It's probably safer in the hands of the Faculty of Advocates then!
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Looking at the link given by Harry, I followed by reading an article on the "creeping demolition of the East End" which had been published on 2nd February 2015.
One of the comments was:
Unesco are looking to remove Edinburgh as a World Heritage Site and we seem to be doing everything in our power to assist them. All listed buildings should be safe from greedy developers & an apparently uncaring council. Losing Unesco status would be disastrous for Edinburgh, so to all the people involved who can only see £ signs, I would ask you to think very carefully.
An unsympathetic/ modern development of Register House would no doubt influence any such decision. Perhaps a point to be made in any letter to MSP or Government?
Helenor
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There are basically two decisions to be made. One would be to relocate the National Records and close and dispose of the building. That decision will be made by the Scottish Government.
The problem is that most of the comments on the petition site agree with the solution being offered by the Scottish government that the records need to be housed in one building.
The problem is the two "Register House" buildings were nearing capacity in the 1980s, that is why Thomas Tomson House was built.
If people want ease of access the records must all be housed in one location which rules out Register House.
The other would be to decide what then happens to the building. Any planning applications for change of use would be determined by the City of Edinburgh Council, who may choose to delegate the decision to either the Planning Committee or to council officals. There might be comments on the plans from other entities, for example Historic Scotland, which deals with listed buildings and is an arm of the Scottish Government, and heritage organisations such as the Cockburn Association or the Saltire Society.
There would be little point in contesting a planning application if the Scottish Government had already decided to close and dispose of the building.
Any change of use for the building should, must be in keeping with the existing structure of the building and its value to the nation as a historic building.
Cheers
Guy
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Further to Edinburgh City Council not being worthy custodians of fine old buildings
It's probably safer in the hands of the Faculty of Advocates then!
The same thought occurred to me. The Edinburgh legal fraternity have an honourable history of scholarship and preserving the best of the past. Lord Cockburn was an outspoken critic of civic vandalism in his own day, and he was the inspiration behind the founding of the Cockburn Association. The Faculty of Advocates library was the forerunner of the National Library of Scotland.
Harry
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If people want ease of access the records must all be housed in one location which rules out Register House.
It depend what you mean by 'easy access'.
I entirely concur that it is desirable to have all the records stored under one roof, but that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is that access to the records should be provided in a place that is easy for customers to get to.
At the moment I can have any document I like brought to me in a convenient city centre location which happens to be in an inspiring and historic building. In the same building I can also access a huge range of digitised information that doesn't involve physical storage on the spot. That is what I call 'easy access'.
Thomas Thomson House, being far more difficult for customers to get to, can never offer 'easy access', no matter what systems are introduced for handling the material.
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At the moment I can have any document I like brought to me in a convenient city centre location which happens to be in an inspiring and historic building.
And when you need a break you can pop next-door to the Guildford Arms, one of the most unspoilt and atmospheric pubs in the centre of Edinburgh (pray God it doesn't belong to the council).
Harry
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Any change of use for the building should, must be in keeping with the existing structure of the building and its value to the nation as a historic building.
Cheers
Guy
Of course, but the mere fact of changing it's purpose must entail substantial alterations, particularly internally, no matter whose hoops they jump through to gain the necessary permissions.
(I think it reasonable, if expansion is required, to have some records in other city centre locations or even slightly further from the centre with easy accessibility or shuttle bus running between buildings.)
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It depend what you mean by 'easy access'.
I entirely concur that it is desirable to have all the records stored under one roof, but that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is that access to the records should be provided in a place that is easy for customers to get to.
At the moment I can have any document I like brought to me in a convenient city centre location which happens to be in an inspiring and historic building. In the same building I can also access a huge range of digitised information that doesn't involve physical storage on the spot. That is what I call 'easy access'.
Thomas Thomson House, being far more difficult for customers to get to, can never offer 'easy access', no matter what systems are introduced for handling the material.
Why do you say Thomas Thomson House is not easy to get to?
That surely depends what mode of transport is being used and where the customers are coming from.
Compared to Princess Street Sighthill has easier access for those coming by road being close to the Edinburgh bypass (A720).
It is on Bus routes from the city centre running every 6 minutes.
It is also close to a railway station (Edinburgh Park) though not quite as close as Register House is to Princess St station.
It is even close to Turnhouse Airport if the customers fly in.
Apart from customers who happen to live close enough to Princess Street to walk to Register House, the Sighthill location could be said to be easier to access.
In what way do you think is it far more difficult for customers to get to?
Cheers
Guy
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In what way do you think is it far more difficult for customers to get to?
Because for most people it will involve taking a minimum of two modes of transport whereas they can take one at present, and if they drive it will be difficult to find parking.
At the moment, all trains, trams and most bus services take you to within a couple of minutes' walk of General Register House, and there is parking close by in the St James' Centre.
Yes, there is Edinburgh Park Station, but (stating the obvious) the only trains that stop there are the ones that happen to be using that line, so if you come from anywhere other than Glasgow Queen Street or somewhere on that route you will have to change trains. If you come from anywhere north of Edinburgh that means going to Haymarket and doubling back. And (according to Traveline) it's 7 minutes' walk from Edinburgh Park to TTH. That's a fair old distance if it's pouring rain or a blizzard.
Yes, there is a bus service, but unless you happen to live somewhere alongside those particular routes, you will have to change buses somewhere along the way, and pay double the fare of course. And (according to both Traveline and Lothian Buses web site) it is still at least 5 minutes' walk from the bus stops to TTH - still plenty of time to get soaked in bad weather.
I know lots of users of GRH (and NRH) who come into Edinburgh almost daily, by public transport, specifically to visit the National Records of Scotland and/or Scotland's People Centre, and who would find it very much more difficult to get to TTH.
It's rather ironic that the bus services that go nearest to Thomas Thomson House include some of the ones that drop you almost on the doorstep of GRH.
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Because for most people it will involve taking a minimum of two modes of transport whereas they can take one at present, and if they drive it will be difficult to find parking.
There is on free on street parking outside the Thomas Tomson House (TTH) whereas parking at St James Centre costs £9.00 for 3 to 5 hours.
In addition it is far easier to get to TTH by car as it is on the outskirts of the city, close to the ring road (A720)junction with the M8 giving excellent road access.
At the moment, all trains, trams and most bus services take you to within a couple of minutes' walk of General Register House, and there is parking close by in the St James' Centre.
Yes, there is Edinburgh Park Station, but (stating the obvious) the only trains that stop there are the ones that happen to be using that line, so if you come from anywhere other than Glasgow Queen Street or somewhere on that route you will have to change trains. If you come from anywhere north of Edinburgh that means going to Haymarket and doubling back. And (according to Traveline) it's 7 minutes' walk from Edinburgh Park to TTH. That's a fair old distance if it's pouring rain or a blizzard.
Yes, there is a bus service, but unless you happen to live somewhere alongside those particular routes, you will have to change buses somewhere along the way, and pay double the fare of course. And (according to both Traveline and Lothian Buses web site) it is still at least 5 minutes' walk from the bus stops to TTH - still plenty of time to get soaked in bad weather.
There is a bus stop directly across the road from the gates of the TTH and the trams and trains about 5 minutes walk away. When compared with access to the National Archives at Kew, TTH is in an excellent location. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01erk/
I know lots of users of GRH (and NRH) who come into Edinburgh almost daily, by public transport, specifically to visit the National Records of Scotland and/or Scotland's People Centre, and who would find it very much more difficult to get to TTH.
It's rather ironic that the bus services that go nearest to Thomas Thomson House include some of the ones that drop you almost on the doorstep of GRH.
We must bear in mind that the current buildings have reached capacity which is why TTH was built. The situation is going to get worse as more and more records will be stored away from Register House and a move is therefore inevitable.
Any slight inconvenience in changing buses or trains must be offset by the fact all the records will be available onsite rather than numbers of records having to be ordered from an out store prior to visiting the archive.
Cheers
Guy
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There is on free on street parking outside the Thomas Tomson House (TTH)
If there are spaces available. Can you imagine the parking problems when (not 'if') say half of the people who use the Scotland's People Centre decide it's easier to drive to TTH than to go by bus or train?
In addition it is far easier to get to TTH by car as it is on the outskirts of the city, close to the ring road (A720)junction with the M8 giving excellent road access.
That depends where you are travelling from. One thing is certain; if this move is made, there will inevitably be a large increase in the proportion of users who do take their cars.
When compared with access to the National Archives at Kew, TTH is in an excellent location.
I have been sedulously avoiding mentioning that, as two blacks don't make a white. I agree wholeheartedly that getting to the National Archives at Kew is extremely inconvenient, even if you start from central London. But just because Kew is awkward to get to doesn't mean that it's all right to make the National Records of Scotland awkward to get to, let alone the Scotland's People Centre.
We must bear in mind that the current buildings have reached capacity which is why TTH was built. The situation is going to get worse as more and more records will be stored away from Register House and a move is therefore inevitable.
I don't query the need for material to be stored outside the city centre. It's the public access that needs to be central. It works fine at the moment. And the largest number of users is probably those using the Scotland's People Centre, which doesn't generally involve producing actual documents as it's all digitised.
Any slight inconvenience in changing buses or trains must be offset by the fact all the records will be available onsite rather than numbers of records having to be ordered from an out store prior to visiting the archive.
The negigible extra inconvenience of ordering documents from my home computer in advance of my visit instead of from the computer in the search room on arrival is completely offset by being able to view them in a convenient city centre location which is, moreover, in an inspiring building. In addition, it means that the documents are ready and waiting for me when I arrive, so I can get straight to work, rather than ordering them on arrival and having to wait for them to be fetched from a remote part of the building.
We are going to have to agree to disagree about this :)
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And when you need a break you can pop next-door to the Guildford Arms, one of the most unspoilt and atmospheric pubs in the centre of Edinburgh (pray God it doesn't belong to the council).
Harry
......or can I suggest the Cafe Royal almost next door to the Guildford. I got the tram from Ingliston Park and Ride about a month ago to St Andrews Square on route to GRO, and had a lovely meal and refreshment, too.
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And when you need a break you can pop next-door to the Guildford Arms, one of the most unspoilt and atmospheric pubs in the centre of Edinburgh (pray God it doesn't belong to the council).
Harry
......or can I suggest the Cafe Royal almost next door to the Guildford. I got the tram from Ingliston Park and Ride about a month ago to St Andrews Square on route to GRO, and had a lovely meal and refreshment, too.
Yes, you would be looking at Sighthill for a very long time before you saw anything resembling the Cafe Royal. Not an oyster in sight.
Harry
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I must admit even looking at the changed Edinburgh from the place I knew in the late 60s brought back memories of the
dives I mean flats I lived in during my time there.
Rose Street, Broughton Place, Arthur Street, etc. the only street that hasn't changed is Abercrombie Place.
Oh well that's life.
Sorry to go off topic with my trip in the past.
Cheers
Guy
PS changed spelling new to knew
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I must admit even looking at the changed Edinburgh from the place I new in the late 60s brought back memories of the dives I mean flats I lived in during my time there.
Rose Street, Broughton Place, Arthur Street, etc. the only street that hasn't changed is Abercrombie Place.
Oh well that's life.
Sorry to go off topic with my trip in the past.
Cheers
Guy
It's by straying off the beaten track that you come across interesting places. My wife belongs to the International Women's Club of Edinburgh and they meet in the Royal Scots club in Abercrombie Place.
Harry
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I lived in Newington, then Jock's Lodge, and latterly Marchmont in the late 60s. They all still look much the same, apart from traffic calming and parking restrictions.