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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: josey on Wednesday 04 February 15 10:33 GMT (UK)
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Richard Ansell Hayter was born ca 1825 probably in Sunninghill Berkshire, parents Richard Hayter & Sarah Ansell.
I found a webpage - 1860 Christchurch list of people liable to serve in the militia, when he was a farmer in Lower Heathcote - indicating he had emigrated to New Zealand. In the 1861 census his sister Henrietta was in England with a son, Edwin Richard J Hayter, aged 8 born in New Zealand. Perhaps the siblings emigrated together but she decided to go back? Neither are findable on the England 1851 census.
Might I be able to find out if Richard married and when he died?
Thank you, Josey
EDIT: a kind rootschatter found a newspaper advert of 1859 wherein Richard advertised a pregnant sow, imported from Berkshire, for sale.
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Little bit about the son Edwin in case you don't already have it.
He appears in the 1891 London census with a wife Helena 32 and children William 13 Helene 4.
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I had found that census, but thank you.
I have no experience whatsoever researching NZ records :(
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Hi,
A possibility for Edwins birth Registration:
1852/3411
HAYTER
NR
Mother Henrietta
Father Thomas
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/
Leanne
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Richard Ansell Hayter was born ca 1825
Might I be able to find out if Richard married and when he died?
Thank you, Josey
NZBDM Death?
1907/8823 Hayter Richard 81Y
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Thank you both Leanne & GLC, both look good.
Henrietta said she was unmarried in the 1861 census. Would the father Thomas have to have attended the registration for his name to be entered if the Edwin was born illegitimately?
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NZBDM Death?
1907/8823 Hayter Richard 81Y
The above was registered in Christchurch and the last listing for Richard Ansell Hayter in the NZ Electoral Rolls is 1905/6 at Sydenham Chambers , Christchurch. You can search for a marriage here , but I couldn't find one :
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/
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Thank you. NZ records are a new venture for me, that's a useful site.
BTW I have your cat's twin here....
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Lovely cat - I'm afraid we lost Tommy at Christmas . We miss him very much.
Good luck with the NZ records.
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Hi,there are numerous entries in PapersPast for R A Hayter in Christchurch
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=q&r=1&results=1&sf=byDA&r=1&o=100&e=-------100--1----2r+a+hayter--
Cheers Janette
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Wow, thanks. So he missed out on some road tenders - then had to sell all his horses & drays in 1864. 1868 his voting rights were objected to [think he'd lost his farm], in 1871 working at E J Comer's office, turned down for clerk of the Roads Board in 1872, bankrupt in 1876. I wonder what he did for the remaining 30 years of his life?
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In the later Electoral Rolls he's either a bookkeeper or residential accountant.
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Oh, thanks, good to know he had employment - I was imagining him enduring poverty.
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Perhaps the siblings emigrated together ..... Neither are findable on the England 1851 census.
Hi Josey
Indeed they did emigrate together - by the vessel "Isabella Hercus" which arrived at Lyttelton (the port serving the Canterbury region), on 1 March 1851. (That date being the reason you couldn't find them in the 1851 UK census.) ;)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/ih.htm
~ Lu
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Hi again
... just noticed when posting that link for the "Isabella Hercus", that there was a listing for a "William HAYTER" also ???
Before finding that link, I'd earlier come across a newspaper article >
"Lyttelton Times" - 15 March 1851 - Otago > which gave just the names of a "Mr HAYTER and Miss HAYTER" who were amongst the cabin and forecabin passengers aboard that vessel. [I"ll check further to see what I can find for "William Hayter" :
~ Lu
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Perhaps the siblings emigrated together ..... Neither are findable on the England 1851 census.
Hi Josey
Indeed they did emigrate together - by the vessel "Isabella Hercus" which arrived at Lyttelton (the port serving the Canterbury region), on 1 March 1851. (That date being the reason you couldn't find them in the 1851 UK census.) ;)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/ih.htm
~ Lu
Hi Josey
I hadn't fully explored the link above ;D ... but scrolling through the info again, I see there is a note labelled "HAYTER" and refers to Richard having written a diary whilst aboard the "Isabella Hercus".
~ Lu
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Wonderful finds, thank you so much Lucy.
In 1850, Richard & Henrietta's older brother James Samuel died aged 31, & named his 5 siblings as equal co-legatees [kindly enough in birth order!] in his will. I am wondering if Richard & Henrietta used their inheritance to emigrate? They seemed to have been in 'posh' cabins....
Here is the thread with that information
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711689.0
How long would the voyage have taken?
I suspect William is John William, the youngest sibling - I couldn't find him in 1851 either.
The diary is now in Christchurch museum, according to the article.
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The "Isabella Hercus" departed Plymouth on 24 October 1850 ... arrived at Lyttelton, Canterbury on 1 March 1851.
"Posh Cabins" ... yes, says they travelled in the Fore Cabin, so would seem they paid a premium for such berths (and possibly this was funded from their inheritance ? ).
~ Lu
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Hi Josey
I'm not sure how interested you are in Edwin HAYTER, the son of Henrietta HAYTER, ??? ... but I found some rather peculiar information about him.
In the 1861 census his sister Henrietta was in England with a son, Edwin Richard J Hayter, aged 8 born in New Zealand.
Firstly, the 1861 census shows Henrietta's son only as Edwin (i.e. without the additional names).
However because his birth year and birthplace are a very good match for the man in the 1891 census, living at Lambeth/Brixton with a wife Helena and 2 children, I think it's reasonable to assume that this Edwin Richard HAYTER*, is probably the unnamed child born to Henrietta in 1852 in New Zealand.
[Note: * The index at ancestry has this 1891 Edwin, recorded as "Edwin Richard J. HAYTER" ... however on checking the actual census image, it looks more like "Edwin Richd." (with the "d" written above the lower case "h") ... and the upstroke of the letter"H" of the surname HAYTER, looking like it could be a letter "J". You'll see in following posts why I have mentioned this. ;) ]
~ Lu
continues next >>
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So here is the (probable) marriage for the Edwin HAYTER (b. New Zealand abt 1852) who in the 1891 census (Lambeth) had a wife named as Helena.
St. Peters, Walworth, Surrey
6 January 1884
Edwin HAYTER - 30 years* - Widower - occupation: Traveller
Residing at: 30 Sutherland Square
Father: Edwin HAYTER (deceased) - occ: Captain
Helena TAYLOR - 26 - spinster
Father: George TAYLOR - occ: Traveller
Witnesses: Horatio Gr ...... ? (poss ? Grevillier ?? ) and W. THRIPP (Thrupp ?)
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So above Edwin HAYTER stated to be 30 years ... bc 1854 ??
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Here is the (probable) marriage for the Edwin HAYTER (b. New Zealand abt 1852) who in the 1891 census (Lambeth) had a wife named as Helena.
St. Peters, Walworth, Surrey
6 January 1884
Edwin HAYTER - 30 years* - Widower - occupation: Traveller
Residing at: 30 Sutherland Square
Father: Edwin HAYTER (deceased) - occ: Captain
Helena TAYLOR - 26 - spinster
Father: George TAYLOR - occ: Traveller
Witnesses: Horatio Gr ...... ? (poss ? Grevillier ?? ) and W. THRIPP (Thrupp ?)
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So above Edwin HAYTER stated to be 30 years ... bc 1854 ??
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The Edwin HAYTER who married Helena TAYLOR in 1884 (Walworth, Surrey) also claimed to be a "widower".
And there was this earlier marriage in 1874 ?
St Pancras Church, Middlesex -- 11 February 1874
Edwin Richard William HAYTER - full age - bachelor - occ: Publican
of 37 Judd Street
Father: Richard HAYTER (deceased) - occ: Mariner
Editha Almira MARRIOTT - spinster - full age - of 57 Judd Street
Father: Charles Valentine MARRIOTT - Whitesmith (deceased)
Witnesses: A. J. MARRIOTT and Elizabeth Rookes ? MARRIOTT
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[Note: No real way of being certain from above info whether this is the same man who later married in 1884 - different father's name ... but occupations - "Captain" and "Mariner" are perhaps similar ? ]
However there is further info to follow which makes me think this E.R.W. HAYTER is the man who appears in 1891 with wife Helena. ??
~ Lu
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"Ruapehu" to Wellington, New Zealand - departed Port of London, England - 13 September 1893
E.R.W. HAYTER - occupation: Compositor - Married - aged 40 years [bc 1853 ]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Just looked again at the passenger list for above and E.R.W. HAYTER appears to be on the same ticket number, as the following people :
G.G.* IRONS - 40 years - Occupation: Printer
[* Looks like "G.G." but having done some "spade work" I think this man was one "Charles Clarke IRONS" who was an Artist (wood engraver ... later an author ). ]
- W. E. IRONS - male - aged 8 years
- S.C. IRONS - male - aged 10 years
So, a printer / a compositor ... was it some kind of partnership ?? maybe ERW working for this man ??
The two lads W E (Wilfred Edward) and S C (Seffried Charles) IRONS were the sons of Charles Clarke IRONS. They all settled in Christchurch, although C.C. IRONS (who left a wife and other children behind in England in 1893) appears to have returned to London and married again in 1909 ?
~ Lu
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New Zealand Electoral :
1896 - Waikato - Thames roll
HAYTER - Edwin Richard William - Coromandel - Umbrella maker
NZ Marriage
Edwin Richard William HAYTER - Adelaide Mary BEAUMONT -- 1904
Electoral ... continued:
1911 / 1919 / 1925 / 1928 - Canterbury - Lyttelton roll
HAYTER - Edwin Richard William - 16 Denman Street, Sumner (1911 - occ: Gardener)
HAYTER - Adelaide Mary - married
... on later rolls (same address) E.R.W. HAYTER is shown as "retired"
~ Lu
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New Zealand Death
1934 - HAYTER - Edwin Richard William - 82 years [bc 1852 ]
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All absolutely wonderful digging, thank you Lu. A lot of occupations eh :o but co-incidentally Charles [see below] Hayter's daughter Eleanor married into an umbrella making Trowsdale family!!
On the other thread, Maddie found an 1881 census RG11/606/31/2
Lambeth Southville
Edwin Wheeler 28 born New Zealand hawker
Helena W 23 b Liverpool
William 3 b Liverpool
Florrie 2 b Liverpool
I see exactly what you say about the Edwin Richd on the 1861, you are correct. IF the same man could the occupation been falsely given, say by Edwin, for the 1893 voyage make him a more welcome immigrant but reverted to the trade he knew?
Do you think, if the given father Richard is correct for the 1884 marriage, Edwin may have been illegitimate in more than way? OR may Henrietta have become pregnant on the voyage back with the father the captain, or a mariner Edwin on her vessel? Maybe Henrietta never told Edwin who is father really was.
Really don't know who the William who accompanied Richard & Henrietta in 1851 is; I'll look around my Hayter files for someone not present on the 1851; it is possible brother John William died in 1858, having appeared on the 1851 census.
ADDED: I don't think I've mentioned on this thread that Richard Ansell Hayter's father Richard 1780 was elder brother to my 3 x g grandfather Charles Hayter 1787.
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Burial - Bromley Cemetery, Christchurch, NZ
HAYTER - Edward* [sic]
d. 28 November 1934
Buried : Plot 188 / Block 12
* Burial record shows the name of "Edward" rather than Edwin - but date of death of this man is the same as for "Edwin Richard William HAYTER " :
http://heritage.christchurchcitylibraries.com/Cemeteries
~ Lu
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Thank you....again.
I found these 2 marriages for William Hayter on www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz
1889/960 Ann Handlin William Hayter
1895/1684 Hannah Lizzie Harker William James Frederick Hayter
and this death
1916/334 Hayter William 77Y [so born ca 1839]
all to go on the back burner.
Might eventually be able to identify the William of the 1851 voyage.
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My guess is that Henrietta HAYTER when registering the New Zealand birth, probably added a "fictitious" father for the child. If questioned, and that probably didn't happen, then all that needed to be said was that the father was ... "away, working elsewhere" ... "at sea" ... or whatever.
[I do wonder though if she deliberately elected not to add the child's forenames when she registered the birth ? ]
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No, I didn't make any progress with finding out just who the William HAYTER on the 1851 voyage to NZ, was. :(
~ Lu
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Do you think the museum holding Richard's diary and/or the author of the rootsweb page on the Isabella Hercus would be interested in Richard's back story?
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Incidentally, did find a (solitary) tree at ancestry which gave a few details of Edwin Richard William HAYTER. [CUFF family tree ]:
It gave his birthdate as "4 August 1852" at Christchurch. NZ - (although by a process of deduction, (tinkering with dates) it is possible to work out the from the online NZ BDM birth index, the d.o.b. )
The marriage to Adelaide Mary BEAUMONT is said to have taken place at Auckland on 7 July 1904.
The tree also gave the names of parents as :
Richard HAYTER and Henrietta SMART* ???
[* Did I see somewhere that another of the HAYTER daughters married a "SMART" ?? ]
Whether the parental information has been taken from the 1904 marriage certificate, is not known (no sources given).
~ Lu
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Do you think the museum holding Richard's diary and/or the author of the rootsweb page on the Isabella Hercus would be interested in Richard's back story?
You could always contact them and ask. :)
I do know that Canterbury Museum accept family history / genealogy material (I still have some to deposit with them).
Richard's diary written during the voyage sound's interesting ? [I was disappointed to see that no one has seemingly transcribed it ? That may have something to do with the fact that if he didn't marry / or leave issue, and consequently nobody is researching his line ?? Pity. :( ]
~ Lu
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I will contact them; I will also offer to transcribe the diary if the museum can send me scans. It would be a lovely thing to do & also have the voyage details available worldwide.
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Also found this, dating from 1879 > ::)
http://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/24764/page/5632/data.pdf
{see right-hand column -- second from bottom}
In the County Court at Berkshire, holden at Windsor, Edwin Richard William HAYTER of 36 Ray Street and Waterside, in the County of Berks, Boat Owner and Letter of Boats on hire ....
[Seems he had a great many occupations during his lifetime ? ] ;)
Also noticed 2 (I think) other, gazetted notices (UK 1875 ?? 1877 ? ) in this name .... a "google" search should find them.
~ Lu
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I will contact them; I will also offer to transcribe the diary if the museum can send me scans. It would be a lovely thing to do & also have the voyage details available worldwide.
Yes, that would be a super idea. :)
~ Lu
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"Ruapehu" to Wellington, New Zealand - departed Port of London, England - 13 September 1893
E.R.W. HAYTER - occupation: Compositor - Married - aged 40 years [bc 1853 ]
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
******
Just looked again at the passenger list for above and E.R.W. HAYTER appears to be on the same ticket number, as the following people :
G.G.* IRONS - 40 years - Occupation: Printer
[* Looks like "G.G." but having done some "spade work" I think this man was one "Charles Clarke IRONS" who was an Artist (wood engraver ... later an author ). ]
- W. E. IRONS - male - aged 8 years
- S.C. IRONS - male - aged 10 years
So, a printer / a compositor ... was it some kind of partnership ?? maybe ERW working for this man ??
The two lads W E (Wilfred Edward) and S C (Seffried Charles) IRONS were the sons of Charles Clarke IRONS. They all settled in Christchurch, although C.C. IRONS (who left a wife and other children behind in England in 1893) appears to have returned to London and married again in 1909 ?
*******
~ Lu
Edited: Ooops ... I goofed up a bit with this post .... but what I've done is just added new information between *****), to the earlier posting I made. ;D
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Hmmm...must have been an unsuccessful partnership if Edwin returned to umbrella making! perhaps it was meant to be a new start for them, full of enthusiasm, which didn't work out.
I can't find a death for Editha Hayter, perhaps Edwin was as much a butterfly in his marriages as he was in his occupation ;D
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[* Did I see somewhere that another of the HAYTER daughters married a "SMART" ?? ]
Whether the parental information has been taken from the 1904 marriage certificate, is not known (no sources given).
Yes, Hannah Ellen Hayter married John Franklin Smart. They had a son William who died young & apparently no further issue. Both died in the 1890s.
I have emailed Canterbury Museum. It would be a fascinating project to transcribe the diaries & I have quite some experience at reading old handwriting.
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Incidentally, did find a (solitary) tree at ancestry which gave a few details of Edwin Richard William HAYTER. [CUFF family tree ]:
I have also found a HAYTER private family tree on ancestry with Edwin Richard William Hayter. I will contact the tree owner who says he was born 1855 in Marylebone ???
The CUFF tree does not come up in my search.
EDIT: Ah now it does if I log into ancestry.com; if I have world membership why doesn't it even if I am logged in [as they do to me by default] to ancestry.co.uk?
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I had a reply from the museum:
I had a look at the diary and it is a 1 volume with 62 hand written pages. As the Museum conservation policy does not permit original manuscript material to be photocopied, I will have to photograph it. Unfortunately this is an expensive process, the cost for a high resolution photograph is NZ$20, so the total cost for the diary will be of NZ$1240 (NZ$20 x 62 photographs).
This cost is prohibitive & I don't know whether it is a digital image of an actual photograph. How can a HR digital photo cost NZ$20 to take? An earlier email reply had suggested there could be an abatement or waiver of the copying fee for exchange for a transcription but no inkling of this in the above reply.
I doubt if this diary is on display & doubt it ever has been read. A transcription would enable anyone to see it anywhere in the world.
Suggestions, please as to how to proceed....
Josey
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An update - after some negotiation, the museum kindly rebated the fee by 50% then I suggested that if a single image was taken of each double page it would again reduce the number of required images by 50%. So for a quarter of the original estimate, I now have images of the whole diary, have read it & am starting to transcribe....sadly the diary starts on 24 Oct 1850 when the Isabella Hercus left Plymouth [they had embarked at Gravesend so were already seasick!!] but finishes on Sunday 12 Jan 1851 so there are 7 - 8 weeks missing until they arrived in Lyttleton on 1 Mar 1851.
It appears the party were Richard, Henrietta & William Hayter & Hannah & John Percy + an unnamed 'child' [who was very ill, 'reduced to a skeleton', doctor said 'he would not live even if he survived the voyage' - but the diary ends before we learn its fate; I have looked on findmypast overseas & New Zealand deaths but no Percy for 1850/1851]. I have yet to ascertain who they could be - I wondered if they were the John Percy/Hannah Taylor marriage Sep 1850 at Wandsworth by licence, with child John Percy born Sep 1850 Wandsworth? If so I do not know their connection to the Hayters.
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Hi Josey
So pleased to learn that you were able to negotiate a better deal with the museum.
I think it's wonderful that you have taken on the challenge of transcribing this diary. :)
I, for one, will certainly be interested in reading it.
Yes, I think you have correctly identified the couple and infant (the PERCY's).
I do wonder though (and this is just my take on things), whether Richard was simply reporting on their plight because he spent time with them, sharing as it were, the same cabin space ?
I've found further info for the PERCY's, will add in following posts.
~ Lu
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I have yet to ascertain who they could be - I wondered if they were the John Percy/Hannah Taylor marriage Sep 1850 at Wandsworth by licence, with child John Percy born Sep 1850 Wandsworth? If so I do not know their connection to the Hayters.
Unfortunately there are access problems with our NZBDM online facility at present so I haven't been able to do a thorough check of records.
Not sure if you viewed the marriage record for John PERCY / Hannah TAYLOR ... so will add it here.
St Mary, Battersea, Surrey
11 September 1850
John PERCY - full age - Bachelor - School Master
Father: John PERCY - agriculture
Hannah TAYLOR - spinster (Minor)
Father: George TAYLOR - gardener
Witnesses: Thomas TAYLOR and Maria? (looks like) PORTER
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Was hopeful there might be a baptism record (at poss. St Mary's) for the child but found nothing under PERCY or TAYLOR.
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Eventually found the correct, John PERCY, in New Zealand - and whilst he continued for a time in education, he'd also taken on another occupation ... and moved to another province (Nelson).
[Have yet to find anything for his wife Hannah. ]
From around 1858, there were newspaper birth announcements .. and very sadly, a number of deaths of children of Mr J PERCY (or Mr John PERCY). I found the following burials at Fairfield Cemetery, Nelson :
1854 - Emily Howick PERCY - d. 30 March 1854 - aged 5 months
1858 - John James PERCY - aged 3 years, 8 months (possibly named for a brother ?) d. 27 December 1858.
1863 - Ellen Kate PERCY - d. 11 February - aged 8 months.
1868 - Ernest Noble PERCY - d. 18 October - aged 10 years.
All these burial records marked "child of Mr J PERCY".
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Can't see a family tree for this man, so it may well be that no children survived him ??
Additionally, there was a death notice published in a Nelson newspaper at the same time (1868) as son Ernest, passed away, recording the death of "Mrs Anne PERCY (on 1 June) at Howick, Northumberland, (ENG), the mother of Mr J PERCY of this city."
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John PERCY ... died at Hastings (North Island) NZ, on 1 May 1896, aged 67 years.
A number of newspapers carried briefly-worded tributes to him (none mentioning wife or children though).
Happily the following paper published a quite comprehensive obituary.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Hastings Standard" (Hawkes Bay) - 2 May 1896 - page 2
... John PERCY - born Alnwick, Northumberland - 67 years - trained at Battersea College - one of six (school masters ?) sent to the Colony by the National School Association ... arrived in 1851 :
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John PERCY ... baptism records (2 of) @ familysearch
Born: 5 August 1828 / Baptised : 29 August 1828
Burgher - Northumberland
Parents: John PERCY and Ann TAYLOR
???
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John PERCY ... died at Hastings (North Island) NZ, on 1 May 1896, aged 67 years.
> link to Hastings Cemetery database.
http://cemeterybase.hdc.govt.nz
It says alongside of John's listing that a headstone photo is available ... click on the link though, and it returns "No image available". ["The "photo available" thing, is a bit of a problem with this database - I've found previously that only a handful ever return an image. Grrr. ]
A number of other PERCY's are buried at this cemetery - one named as "Hannah Isabella" d. 1901, who was also a "school teacher". I don't think she is related. Seems to have been a spinster - don't have her age (yet), but she was survived by her mother (and a sister, who was executor of her will).
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Hannah TAYLOR ... (m. John PERCY - 11 September 1850 - St Mary's, Battersea, Surrey)
Hannah was described as a "minor" on the marriage cert.
Possibly this is her baptism ?
St. Mary's, Battersea -- Baptism : 21 November 1830
Hannah TAYLOR
Born: 18 October 1830
Parents: Sarah and George TAYLOR (gardener) , Battersea.
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What a glorious amount of information to log on to!! Thank you so much Lucy2, I am convinced you have the right Percys & also feel your suggestion of them only being cabin sharers may be also correct. How sad for Hannah to lose all her children. At one point only a week or so into the voyage she says she would prefer to starve in England than be on the ship!!
I found a marriage bond for John & Hannah; it stated that her father George was dead & that her mother Sarah was unmarried (presumably not remarried) so took responsibility for Hannah as she was an minor.
I need to work out who William is [called Bill sometimes in the diary & obviously an adult as he occasionally smokes a cigar or pipe :)].
Thank you again for your research & insight. I will pm you.
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Lucy2, you earlier gave this website which has been very useful:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/ih.htm
I have read it again & gives a 12 Oct 1900 obituary from The Star for a William Smart
At an early age he was articled to Messrs Cubitt and Co., the famous builders, and under them had the supervision of a portion of the building of the new Covent Garden Theatre in the forties. He afterwards emigrated to New Zealand with his brother, the late Mr John Franklin Smart, arriving in Lyttelton in the ship Isabella Hercus, on March 1, 1851.
However, there are NO Smarts listed in the passenger list....AND John Franklin Smart was the husband of Hannah Ellen Hayter [Richard's sister]. They married in 1847 & I have only found them in 1861 [childless in Brighton], 1881 & 1891 [in Bristol] in the censuses - they usefully always used their middle initial. I have them as having a son William baptised in Stepney in Nov 1849 who died young though no death or burial found yet [BUT could he have been the baby or child in the diary?] & no further issue. AND could the William, John & Hannah mentioned in the diary actually all be Smarts? With John & Hannah returning to England with Henrietta [and Edwin] sometime before 1861?
These are only thoughts, but is strange there are no Smarts on the list but also that John Percy has no wife either predeceased or mentioned in his obituary.
I can't get into NZ bmds at the moment to see if there is an infant/child Smart death between 1851 & 1861 nor are there passenger lists for incoming ships to the UK 1851 - 1861.
I think I ought to try to see the original film of the passenger list to check for any mis-transcription. Richard writes about the suicide of a young woman called Franklinham whose name is noted as
Flreckingham on the passenger list. I cannot find her death on British nationals died Overseas, but I know this list, like the military bmds, is likely to be incomplete.
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Hi Josey
Thanks for your PM, which I will respond to shortly ... and also will endeavour to assist on the thread, with some of the newer queries you have.
Still somewhat hampered by having the NZBDM site not operational (hopefully it will be back up and running by tomorrow).
"No SMART's on 1851 passenger list". Mmm ... I do wonder if the STUART people (William and John) are in fact the SMART brothers ??? I can see how bad writing might have seen the name transcribed as "Stuart". (More letters of course in "Stuart" but both names end in "...ART". ) ??
And you do have verification (from William SMART's obit) that he arrived per the "Isabella Hercus" with his brother John.
I tend to think that the groups listed in the Cabin and Forecabin, were all persons who paid their own fares to the Colony. The "Isabella Hercus" was amongst the first six ships which brought the earliest emigrants to the province of Canterbury (a new venture for the Canterbury Association). To help offset the cost to the provincial government, passengers who were prepared to pay full fares, also sailed on these ships. [ I can see that Archives New Zealand in Christchurch, hold quite a lot of files in relation to this 1851 voyage ... but it may well only contain info on "the emigrants" (i.e. those persons whose fares were paid in full or part by the provincial government.) Anyway I'll get back to you about this once I've had a closer look at the file references. ]
The "Bill" referred to in Richard's diary, might of course be William SMART ??
Have a lot more info to add here - it's getting late - so will post further tomorrow.
~ Lu
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... just noticed when posting that link for the "Isabella Hercus", that there was a listing for a "William HAYTER" also ???
Before finding that link, I'd earlier come across a newspaper article >
"Lyttelton Times" - 15 March 1851 - Otago > which gave just the names of a "Mr HAYTER and Miss HAYTER" who were amongst the cabin and forecabin passengers aboard that vessel.
Took another look at the list published in above dated newspaper. Haven't compared it with the full passenger list, (there seems to be a few names missing?? ) but the following persons were some who were mentioned :
Mrs and Mrs STUART
Mr HAYTER
Miss HAYTER
Mr John PERCY
[So, STUART (again) ... one Mr HAYTER (William is missing) ... and no mention of a Mrs. PERCY ??? ]
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...John Franklin Smart was the husband of Hannah Ellen Hayter [Richard's sister]. I have them as having a son William baptised in Stepney in Nov 1849 who died young though no death or burial found yet [BUT could he have been the baby or child in the diary?]
Just my thoughts ... but by the sound of what Richard wrote about the doomed child, it seems that had it been the child of JF and Hannah SMART, then he might have also mentioned that it was his nephew (or niece) ?
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Hi Josey
I can tell you that John Franklin and Hannah Ellen SMART went back to the UK sometime in the late 1850's. [I'll post some references for this tomorrow.]
They also returned to (Christchurch) New Zealand - don't have a precise date - but JF SMART began to appear again in NZ newspapers (supporting an election candidate) in late 1865.
And (happily) found the following, showing when they returned to the UK.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Press" (Christchurch) - 16 April 1874 - page 2 - Shipping
Sailed : APRIL 15 - "Salisbury" - ship - 1113 tons - (Capt.) CLARE - for London.
Passengers: Mr and Mrs J.F. SMART and servant, Mr Martin and Mr Bridges :
~ Lu
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Once again, thank you so much for your successful digging, Lucy2.
All is beginning to fit into place, thanks to you. You have explained the absence of J F & H E Smart from the 1871 UK census, also that Mr & Mrs Stuart are most likely to be Mr & Mrs Smart, also why no wife mentioned in John Percy's obit. William/Bill could indeed be William Smart, although he is not as such named on the rootsweb list but possibly could be the Smart child [I take your point about Richard's not naming a relationship, but from the tone of the diary he seems a rather distant & unemotional man....] although other children under the age of 14 are not named.
So from the rootsweb page we have
Hayter, Henrietta
Hayter, Richard
Hayter, William ?Smart baby
Percy, Hannah ?Smart
Percy, John
Stuart, John ?Smart
Stuart, William ?Smart
& the Lyttleton Times 15 Mar 1851 page as you stated above.
Mrs and Mrs STUART
Mr HAYTER
Miss HAYTER
Mr John PERCY
[So, STUART (again) ... one Mr HAYTER (William is missing) ... and no mention of a Mrs. PERCY ??? ]
Thanks again for your help.
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I found this death on www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz
1854/921 Smart William James 4Y9M
This child would fit exactly the William James born to John Franklin & Hannah Ellen Smart in Sep 1849. Might it be worth buying the details?
In the diary, Richard mentions on Monday 6th Jan 1851 Was awake at 4 o’clock this morning by our going about & the little Infant thumping the Boards exclaiming (I can see land) which I did not believe & not feeling in the least inclined to get up however I was up at 6 bells & found it to be true as I could discern land at a very long distance. . So the 'infant' could talk - would 16 - 17 months be a bit to young to be able to say 'I can see land'? My sons were both late speakers so it seems impossible to me :D
I note William Smart was a builder. Richard's father was an eminent builder & surveyor, so that may be how the families met.
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I found this death on www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz
1854/921 Smart William James 4Y9M
This child would fit exactly the William James born to John Franklin & Hannah Ellen Smart in Sep 1849. Might it be worth buying the details?
I do believe you've found the child. ;)
And from the Christchurch Cemeteries database, this listing.
Barbadoes Street*, Cemetery
Plot 1 - Block (unknown)
William James SMART -- aged 5 years
[* Early records for this particular cemetery are a bit sketchy and above, is the only info given. ]
However by tinkering with dates on the NZBDM site, we are able to deduce "specific dates for events".
This poor wee chap died on 24 June 1854.
[Information given on early NZ death certificates is minimal, so at best you might get the name (and possibly address) of the informant (who may be related to the deceased ... or could just be the details of the undertaker who was registering the death.) ]
Couldn't see a death notice for the child.
~ Lu
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Thank you, yes, I think we've identified the 'child' & thank you for finding his burial.
On Tuesday 10th Dec 1850 Richard wrote:
Henrietta could not make herself agreeable with the mess & John & her were always quarrelling therefore we all thought it would be the best way to give her the fifth part of the provisions & let her provide for herself which has been done . I understand 'the mess' to mean the cooking/kitchen/eating arrangements.
So my opinion is that the party of 5 were Richard Ansell Hayter, Henrietta Hayter [Richard's sister], William Smart, John Franklin Smart [William's brother] & Hannah Ellen Smart nee Hayter [John's wife & Richard's sister] + William James Smart, not included in the passenger lists as about 16 months old.
I am well on the way with the transcription & the museum replied to my request for the details of its donation - by a Mrs Bastion in 1983. I wonder if she is a descendant of Edwin R W Hayter? Or of the Irons family Edwin emigrated with? Or even someone who found it in a 2nd hand shop?
Josey
ADDED: There are Irons marriages on www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz
1906/3918 Charles Irons [could be Seffried dropped his first name] to Sabina Fahey
1915/10686 Wilfred Edward Irons to Myra Beatrice Philpott
1930/5866 Male Irons to Female Basstian - Male Irons could be a child of the 1906 marriage & Basstian very similar to Bastion ???
LATER: The only Irons children father Charles mother Sabina 1906 - 1914 are M 1907, F 1908, M 1910, M 1913, none of whom same forename as the Irons who married in 1930.
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Congratulations on finding answers to your mystery, Josey. :) :) 8)
Spades
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Thanks, spades, and all due to help some very helpful rootschatters :D especially Lucy2.
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Hi Josey
Are you still after the burial details for Richard Ansell Hayter? If so, he died 22 Oct 1907 and was buried 25 Oct 1907 in the Sydenham Cemetery, Christchurch, NZ, aged 81, Block 8C plot 46.
He was listed under the spelling HEYTER, variations of surnames is the age old nemesis of Geni's. ???
Cheers, Aussie Bob
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Thank you very much Aussie Bob, that rounds off the story nicely.
The transcription is complete & has been linked to by the kind owner of this page
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/ih.htm
along with the corrections to the passenger list & notes about life after 1851 for the Hayter/Smart party [and Ann Freckingham who committed suicide on the voyage - I did a little family history for her].
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Hi Lucy,
My Mum found your post online re Charles Clarke Irons arriving in NZ on Ruapehu with two sons and forwarded me the link. He is my Great Grandfather. Can you tell me where to find the passenger lists please? I am happy to help if I can but sounds like you know more than me! I haven't researched his line properly yet. I started and got side-tracked, twice!
I'm in Christchurch.
Regards
Amanda
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Hi Amanda
... welcome to RootsChat. :)
I'm not actually related to any of the people being sought in this thread ... just trying to assist with solving the mysteries which crop up in this forum.
I'll need to look back over the thread ... and hopefully can provide you with an answer, shortly.
~ Lu
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Hello again Amanda
Go to the following link (FamilySearch.org website) >
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1609792
Enter "C.C." + "IRONS" in the name boxes - this will take you through to the passenger list for the vessel "Ruapehu" - 1893.
~ Lu
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Are you wanting further help with your IRONS family ?
~ Lu
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I'd love some help, but not sure if I could cope with more information at the moment as I'm doing a different line at present! I have collected a few pieces from Papers Past and have started putting Charles Clarke Irons story together, intending to return to it at a later date. He was quite an interesting fellow, was said to have had afternoon tea with Charles Dickens! I have quite a large digital collection of his art works which are scattered with family around the world. I'd love to find out what else he has left here in NZ, if anything. he did write an ode and song for the Canterbury Jubilee,1850-1900, and I have recently found a catalogue for the Canty Art Society 1904 featuring his name.
Amanda
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Hi
Probably a good idea to just work on one family line at a time. ;)
Not sure if you're a subscriber to the Ancestry.com site ? [I did notice a correction had been made on that site to baptism details for a daughter of Charles C. and Mary IRONS ?? ]
Seems that much of the "spade work" for C.C. IRONS' family tree has already been done - with numerous researchers adding their findings to the Ancestry website.
Happy to endeavour to help though with anything you're having problems with.
~ Lu