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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: copper john on Tuesday 03 February 15 08:46 GMT (UK)
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Francis is my ancestor I have no info on his birth/baptism, born to Maria Brown(nee Searly/Sealy) who was married to an Abraham Brown 2/7/1815 at St Mary at Hill Middlesex, Abraham died 16/3/1817 buried at St Andrews Holborn London. Maria then married James Gorham 13/6/1821 at St martin in the Fields, London. Maria then died 27/4/1822 age 44yrs buried St Mary Abbot church Kensington. James then raised Francis as his own son (could have been?) I have no record of either Maria Searly/Sealy birth or her son Francis birth, note that on her marriage license Maria has added "Brown"to her christian name also on her marriage license.
Need to confirm Francis father if possible no clues anywhere I have looked.
cheers- copper john
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We are really looking for a Francis (Brown or Sealy/Searly) born c1815 to a mother Maria then. ;D
Does it give a place of birth for him other than just London on any census.
Rosie
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Hi Rosie, I can only assume that Maria is the birth mother of Francis as I have no confirming evidence, this is all complicated by Maria's marriage to Abraham then James, all I do know is that Francis went into being a clockmaker with James servicing Kensington palace as a Clockmaker to the Queen and Royal household, James held a Royal Warrant, they lived apart in the 1851 London census although a few houses apart.They both died in 1856 and are buried together in the same plot in the Kensal Green cemetery. The 1851 census notes Francis was born Kensington Middlesex.
Francis married Harriet Brough 4/12/1841 at St James Westminster they had 7 children, this is my ancestry- however who is Francis's blood father?.
Cheers,
copper john.
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Who does Francis name as his father when he marries?
As for who his blood father was, if he was born diring the marriage to Abraham Brown, then thereis really no reason to think it was anyone other than him. Even if for any reason you suspect otherwise, then there will be no way of knowing!
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Who does Francis name as his father when he marries?
James Gorham - Watchmaker
So James Gorham married Maria Brown Searly
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJY1-5QN
According to the marriage record she was a spinster of St Mary Abbott, Kensington. The marriage was by licence
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Interesting, but might only go to show that James Gorham was the only "dad" he could remember, and that James really did take Francis on as if her were his own son. Relationships with step parents vary so much.
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Sorry liz I added this after you posted
So James Gorham married Maria Brown Searly
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJY1-5QN
According to the marriage record she was a spinster of St Mary Abbott, Kensington. The marriage was by licence
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Spinster? So either she wasn't married to Abraham Brown (though OP has a marriage date) or she forgot to mention that she had been married before, or vicar just wrote it down wrong and she was a widow.
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The Licence has her as a spinster, maybe the marriage record followed on from that.
Copper John, how do you know that Maria was married prior to marrying James Gorham
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Hi Liz Rosie, thank you for your input and suggestions still nothing concrete!. Francis' birth/baptism records must be somewhere in either Church/Parish records-or was he an illegitimate baby between James and an unknown mother?, was Maria a single mother when she married Abraham (Francis was born around the period she met and married Abraham) James must have known the circumstances around Maria and Francis when he married her when Francis was around 5-6 yrs old and James accepted "Brown" into Maria's name( she did not use Brown until after Abraham died?).
Was Francis an orphan/waif that Maria and Abraham then James all wanted to foster care?- so many questions with few or no answers. James had a sister Hester b Ashford c1787 married a Thos Spencer had 2 sons Thos b 30/10/1815, Henry b 3/2/1818 Guildford but died 11/6/1835. I could trace Thos line for DNA sample to match with mine- cheers copper john.
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Copper John, how do you know that Maria was married prior to marrying James Gorham
Her marriage to James Gorham shows her as Maria Brown Searly, a Spinster. There is nothing on that record otr the marriage licence to indicate she was previously married. What evidence do you have that she was.
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Hi Rosie, from searching we have found:Maria Searle/Searly married Abraham Brown from banns at St Mary at Hill Middlesex 2/7/1815 no other info ie births etc. have been found apart from a newspaper article in the Salisbury and Winchester Journal 9/7/1821 it reads: lately was married at St Martin in the Field Church Mr James Gorham of Kensington to Miss Maria Brown Searly late of Blandford Dorset.
I have been in touch with the Dorset family history people- they cannot uncover anything re Maria.
Abraham died and was buried 16/3/1817 (cause of death not known) at St Andrews Holborn London.
when Maria married my James Gorham 13/6/1821 she had added Brown into her christian name & on the bann notice 9/6/1821 her maiden name was spelt both Seale and Searle on the same official record, Maria died 27/4/1822 aged 44yrs buried at St Mary Abbot Church Kensington.
Hope this all helps.
cheers copper john
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I am still not sure why you think that Maria Brown Searly was married to anyone else before she married James Gorham. The marriage to James says she is a spinster and the newspaper article you have just quoted calls her Miss. :-\
Anyway, thank you for the additional information re Blandford it may threw up some answers :)
Rosie :)
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Seems it is based in an assumption that Maria Searle who married Abraham Brown (and he then died) is the same person as the Maria Brown Searly who married James Gorman (she a spinster).
Was James Gorman a bachelor, or widower when the married? The reason I ask is that I am just wondering if James was his child all along, from a previous marriage. If Miss Maria Brown Searly whom he married was single and from Dorset, then Francis born 6 or 7 years earlier in London (yes, have I got that right, Francis was bn London?) is more likely to be his child from a previous marriage.
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Can we just go back to basics with this one.
Here is Francis on 1851-
2 Terrace Kensington
Francis Gorham 35 Watchkaker and Registrar of births and deaths bn Kensington
Harriet 34 wife bn Middx St James
James F 8
Robert H 7
Jane H 6
Frederick E 4
Emily E 3
Henry E 1 children all bn Kensington
Harriet Howse 62 widow Mother in law Independent means bn London
Mary Cooper 57 un aunt Annuitant bn London
Elizabeth Cooper 47 un aunt Annuitant bn Windsor, Berks
+ several apprentices
So we can see Francis comes from a reasonably well-to-do family. So Wills may help in tracing the family further back. Also the presence of the 2 spinster aunts with the name Cooper may help.
We also know from his marriage that cert that he names his father as James Gorham.
So - those are the facts. We have also found that a James Gorham married Maria Brown Searly in 1821. Is there anything to a) prove that this James is the same one as is the father of Francis and b) if this James had been married before.
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James was a bachelor when he married Maria.
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Thanks Rosie.
So, was that marriage even the same James Gorham? There are several around!
The Will for James Gorham dying in 1856 can be viewed. He leaves some legacies and then the Residue and remainder of his Estate to the wife of Francis Gorham.
Strange - wife not widow, so when it was written Francis was still alive. And no reference to "my son" Francis.
Is this James a) the same one as married MAria b) the same one as Francis names as father, neither or both!!!
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So, was that marriage even the same James Gorham? There are several around!
Is this James a) the same one as married MAria
This may support that it is the same James - The 1822 burial for a Maria Gorham and the 1856 burial for James both give High Street as the address ;)
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Hi Lizdb & Rosie, I have asked myself all the questions you ask and followed up where I can,we really need to find Francis birth details including his mother's or we keep going around in circles.
I would like to view any 1841 London census including these Gorham's for clues?, we have both at separate addresses in the 1851 census and only a few streets apart for work at Kensington Palace over the road from High St Kensington. I visited there in 2007 I live in Western Australia.
Francis'wife Harriet father was a solicitor living in Bond St and would have offered advice on how to minimise any taxes owing (probate) Francis died at 41yrs -my understanding is that the family-James Francis and Harriet all new of his illness that would lead to his early death which was the same year as James but later on, all my info is on these postings; everything else is conjecture.
cheers copper john
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Francis'wife Harriet father was a solicitor living in Bond St and would have offered advice on how to minimise any taxes owing (probate) Francis died at 41yrs -my understanding is that the family-James Francis and Harriet all new of his illness that would lead to his early death which was the same year as James but later on, all my info is on these postings
Francis died intestate so he clearly wasn't well advised. ::) It looks as though his estate was only £20
What did he die of
To view 1841 census you need a subscription to one of the ppv sites or your local library may have free access to them.
You may never find them in 1841 as parts of the census were missing for Kensington and other areas of London
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019g8/
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I too wondered if Francis was already ill and not expected to live.And yet he himself never made a Will. There are Letters of Administration for Harriett to administer Francis's estate. Maybe it was negligable, as he had not inherited from his father.
I have been looking in 1841, but no success yet.
(Red writing, Rosie, but seems we are thinking along the same lines. I'll post anyway)
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Hi Lizdb/Rosie99, re any estate for James/Francis, we know Francis had 7 children-my dad told me on a few occasions (he died 2007 at 94yrs) that the family had property where Hendon aerodrome now stands(a row of terrace houses) and recalled going there when young, apparently this property was squandered by one of Francis sons after he died so this may be the reason the estate was protected when Francis died?. Death caused by "Congestion of the brain"?this from his death certificate 1856.
Another scenario I had not considered: did James father Francis to a wife prior to Maria or perhaps a illegitimate birth to a loved one who may have died in childbirth?, if the latter then we can forget Maria as the mother of Francis?.I appeal to your London knowledge of websites who may be able to uncover these other possibilities-if they exist at all- any clues please? I appreciate you both trying to help me. No results either from the Hendon people!. Cheers copper john.
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Another scenario I had not considered: did James father Francis to a wife prior to Maria or perhaps a illegitimate birth to a loved one who may have died in childbirth?, i
James was a bachelor according to his marriage to Maria so if Francis was his son he was illegitimate
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Not sure what you mean about the estate being protected when Francis died. Francis left no Will, so made no attempts to protect his estate, small though it was.
However, his father left the residue of his estate to Francis's wife - unusual as you would expect it to be left to Francis's children (ie his grandchildren) even if it was left in trust for them if they were minors. Unusual to leave it all straight to a daughter in law, who could in theory squander it, or remarry and her new husband spend it or leave it to his family, and therefore the direct line would miss out.
If you are saying there was property that in time went to Franciss children ,then looking for Harriets Will may prove interesting. Unlikely to give us clues about Francis's beginnings, but you never know what Wills will throw up till you read them!
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Harriet died in 1887 it seems. And she left no will either. There are Letters of Admin, for a very small estate.
If one of the children did squander the estate, it was never actually his estate to squander, but that of his grandfather then passed to his mother!
But, I would take family stories with a large pinch of salt. Often there is small element of truth, but more often than not it is embellished, altered, applied to the wrong person etc etc!
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I am assuming you already have this :)
https://discoveringclocks.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/james-gorham-1789-1856-a-kensington-clockmaker/
I think Francis was insolvent by 1853 so probably why James left his estate to Francis's wife
Daily News and The Morning post of November 22nd 1853 both have
Insolvent debtors court, Portugal Street
at 11 before Mr Commissioner Murphy -
Bail: James Croft.
Original Prisoners: James Fry, Francis Cooper, John Wilson, Francis Gorham
Small Debts: Stretton v Abbott