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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jimnic on Friday 30 January 15 03:52 GMT (UK)
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Jane SAUL was the mother of my grandmother. She signed my grandmothers marriage permission as my grandmother was under age. My grandmothers name was Minnie Johnson, nee ;D ;DMcCarthy. I am unable to find any info on Jane SAUL. She was buried as Mrs McCarthy in Tasmania, Australia.
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Was Tasmania the place of your grandmother's marriage?
What other information do you have about the family of your grandmother?
Were there siblings?
Sue
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Do you have the date for the marriage of your Grandmother?
Cheers, JM
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McCARTHY Minnie
JOHNSON Andrew
15 Feb 1906 Reg#722
Church of the Apostles, Launceston
Cando
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Is this your Jane's death
The Examiner, Launceston 4 Jun 1915
McCARTHY.-On the 3rd June, at Launceston, Jane McCarthy, late of Bangor, widow of the late Cornelius McCarthy, aged 53 years. R.I.P.
Cando
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The Mercury, Hobart 24 Mar 1903
Launceston 23 March
The police were informed to-night that Cornelius McCarthy, aged 50, a farmer residing at Bangor, died suddenly this evening. An inquest is to be held to- morrow.
Cando
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There is a marriage for Cornelius MCCARTHY in 1877
This is the death of the young wife of Cornelius MCCARTHY in 1878
Is this the right track I wonder
Sue
EDIT
I have had to remove by edit the links to these events above due to a computer quirk which is putting them into a weird text. will try to get it fixed, but the events should be easily found on Trove. Sorry >:(
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Jane SAUL was the mother of my grandmother. She signed my grandmothers marriage permission as my grandmother was under age.
McCARTHY Minnie
JOHNSON Andrew
15 Feb 1906 Reg#722
Church of the Apostles, Launceston
Cando
If the marriage given by Cando is the correct one then the marriage certificate will also name both of Minnie's parents and give her age and place of birth. Can you give us these details?
Debra :)
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The OP has responded to the thread but pm'd the post to me in error hoping she was answering the correct way and expressed thanks to all.
It is the correct marriage for her grandmother and death for her great grandmother.
Cando
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At Karoola Cemetry , Lilydale Launceston.
Location L 102/C0416
MCCARTHY, Cornelius. Died 23 March 1903. Aged 53 years.
Sp. Jane.
Chn not named.
M CCARTHY, Jane. Died4 June 1915. Aged 53 years .
Sp. Cornelius
Chn not named
Sue
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Another daughter Alice.
Daily Telegraph 3 Jun 1920
In Memoriam
McCARTHY In loving memory of my dear mother, Jane McCarthy, who passed away on 3rd June, 1915. No one she loved was by her side, To hear her last faint sigh; To whisper just one loving word Before she closed her eyes.' —Inserted by her loving daughter, Alice McCarthy.
We are thinking of you to day, dear mother, we are thinking of the past; Picturing you in memory, Just as we saw you last. — Inserted by her loving daughter, Alice McCarthy.
Cando
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Marriage announcement for a daughter of a chap named Henry BLACKWELL, Sarah Ann. 1879 in Bishopsbourne
BLACKWELL. — On the 6th March, at the Wesleyan Church, Longford, by the Rev. H. J. Lavers, Alexander, second son of James Robertson, of West- bury, to Sarah Ann, daughter of Henry Blackwell, Bishopsbourne. [Victorian papers please copy.l
Henry’s wife died the following year and her name was Jane Saul (BLACKWELL).
Death notice for the wife Jane Saul
DEATHS. BLACKWELL. - On the 29th November, at her residence, Bishopsbourne, Jane Saul, the beloved wife of Henry Blackwell, aged 53 years. (Cornwall and Melbourne papers please copy.)
Jane Saul is an unusual combination of names and I am speculating on the possibility the Jane Saul (MCCARTHY ) wife of Cornelius may have been another daughter of the above couple. There was an only son who died aged 17 in 1866.
The couple were married in Cornwall
Date 1853 in the district of Pinnock, St. Henry BLACKWELL and Jane Soul (sic) SCOLYER/SCOLYER. Witnesses were Franics BLACKWELL and George HICKS. Henry was blacksmith and a widower. Jane was spinster. Fathers' names are noted.
I have not been able to find any birth records.
jimnic can you possibly post a snip of the signature of the mother Jane Saul?
Sue
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SPARRETT. hi.
tHANX, but BLACKWELL JANE SAUL is NOT the correct one..
jimnic :)
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Sparrett hi
This is the correct one, died in 1915. wife of Cornelius as Mrs McCarthy nee Saul. There is no Marriage cert that DEPT can find..
Barret was the 1st wife of Cornelius, yes. she lived for 1 year only, there is no reason given.
jimnic
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cando. hi.
Thank you 4 the Memorium. I did not have that one.
jimnic
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SPARRETT. hi.
tHANX, but BLACKWELL JANE SAUL is NOT the correct one..
jimnic :)
I did not say she was the correct one.
I speculated yours may be a daughter of the woman Jane Saul BLACKWELL.
However, perhaps you have information which contradicts this possibility.
If you have, please let us know of it.
Sue
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She was buried as Mrs McCarthy in Tasmania, Australia.
Sparrett hi
This is the correct one, died in 1915. wife of Cornelius as Mrs McCarthy nee Saul. There is no Marriage cert that DEPT can find..
jimnic
The name Jane McCARTHY is on the burial register which I have given above.
On what document did you see the unmarried (nee/birth) name of the woman was SAUL?
Was it her death certificate?
Sue
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Hi Sparrett. thanx 4 th info...
I sent 4 her Marriage cert, but they told me there is no record.
I know when she died. I do not know anything else about her. Where did she come from & who was she?? we suspect she may have been part Aboriginal.
Yes Minnie had brothers & sisters. I know all about Minnie.
Barrett (1st married to Julius ) died in child birth we think, but we do not know what happened to the child. jimnic
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hi sparrett.
Saul had to sign 4 Minnies marraige. thats how I know her surname.
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Jane SAUL was the mother of my grandmother. She signed my grandmothers marriage permission as my grandmother was under age. My grandmothers name was Minnie Johnson, nee ;D ;DMcCarthy. I am unable to find any info on Jane SAUL. She was buried as Mrs McCarthy in Tasmania, Australia.
andhi sparrett.
Saul had to sign 4 Minnies marraige. thats how I know her surname.
andAt Karoola Cemetry , Lilydale Launceston.
Location L 102/C0416
MCCARTHY, Cornelius. Died 23 March 1903. Aged 53 years.
Sp. Jane.
Chn not named.
M CCARTHY, Jane. Died4 June 1915. Aged 53 years .
Sp. Cornelius
Chn not named
Sue
and
Jane SAUL was the mother of my grandmother. She signed my grandmothers marriage permission as my grandmother was under age.
McCARTHY Minnie
JOHNSON Andrew
15 Feb 1906 Reg#722
Church of the Apostles, Launceston
Cando
If the marriage given by Cando is the correct one then the marriage certificate will also name both of Minnie's parents and give her age and place of birth. Can you give us these details?
Debra :)
Hi Everyone,
As Minnie was married as MCCARTHY in 1906, and as her mum died as MCCARTHY in 1915, is it possible that Jane SAUL's nee name was NOT SAUL. Surely if Jane gave consent in 1906 for her MCCARTHY daughter (not yet 21 years of age) to marry, Jane would have been giving consent as Jane MCCARTHY..... with MCCARTHY as Jane's known by name, even if there had been no formal marriage?
Cheers, JM PS, I am not finding it easy to read through a couple of the posts on this thread .... the apparent abbreviations and shortened expressions are confuddling me. I find it actually slows my reading down, as I need to pause, go back over and over and sometimes even read the post aloud rather than rely on my grey cells to comprehend. For example ..... "tHANX" I had no idea that would 'translate' to "Thank You" especially as the same poster had previously typed up "Thank You". I am starting to understand that "4" is actually "for" and not "four".... and perhaps "th" is "the" as in 'thanx 4 th info" and not "4th" (JM found it very confusing .... 'thanks 4th info' ) ..... At least I knew "info" as 'information' .... Phew ..... But I have discovered my brain is trained to read 'words' and simply gets itself confuddled ;D ;D when things are 'out of kilter'. I apologise for not being more actively involved in helping on this thread. ::) ::) I have probably been a typiste for too many decades....
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Barret was the 1st wife of Cornelius, yes. she lived for 1 year only, there is no reason given.
jimnic
Yes there is - the death register gives her cause of death as 'childbirth'.
http://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD35-1-47p12j2k
hi sparrett.
Saul had to sign 4 Minnies marraige. thats how I know her surname.
jimnic, are you getting your information from someone else?
Do you have Minnie's marriage certificate? What are the names she gives for her parents and her age and place of birth?
Debra :)
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Yes Minnie had brothers & sisters. I know all about Minnie.
jimnic
What were their names?
Where and when were they born?
Sue
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A couple of online trees seem to think Jane's maiden name was BIRD.
Births all stated to be in Tasmania but I can't find any registrations on my resource.
McCARTHY Minnie -1976
McMARTHY Margaret Maria [Minnie] 1880-1913
McCARTHY John Thomas 1882-1960
McCARTHY Caroline Jane 1885-1970
McCARTHY George Herbert 1889-1960
BUT where is the Alice who inserted an in memoriam notice in 1920?.
Wonder if Cornelius had a Will? I can't get the new Tas archives website to load.
It would be helpful if you would please type up ALL the information on the marriage certificate exactly as it is written. It would also be helpful if you would snip and attach the section of the certificate where Jane' signs.
We can only help you if you answer the questions posed by members of the forum.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Australian Electoral Roll
1903, 1914
McCARTHY Jane Bangor Domestic Duties
McCARTHY John Bangor Farmer
McCARTHY Marion Bangor Domestic Duties
Cando
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Wonder if Cornelius had a Will? I can't get the new Tas archives website to load.
Cheers :)
Cando
No, I don't see one.
There is an inquest proceedings document for him re the burst blood vessel, but seems not digitised .
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Minnie McCarthy was temporarily staying in Launceston Tasmania. Minnie was born in Bangore. Tasmania. Minnie McCarthy married 15 February in 1906 to Andrew Johnson. 21 yrs. Church of the Apostles Minnie even gives her mothers name exactly as Jane ( Saul ) McCarthy. on the Marriage certificate. Minnie’s mother signed the Consent form exactly as Jane (Saul ) McCarthy. Not Bird.
Minnie had 12 Children. Children; Herbert ( Bert ) William Johnson - d 1965.
Andrew James ( William ) 1906 – 1956. Mary Johnson 1908 –
Alice ( Biddy ) Johnson 1909 – 2004. George Henry Johnson 1912 – 1956.
Laurence ( Cobber ) Kenneth Johnson 1917 – 1987 Raymond ( Ray ) Allan Johnson 1919 – 1979.
Ralph Johnson 1921 – 1922. Alfred (Toby ) Ernest Johnson b- 1 Oct 1914. ,Death 1997 in Hobart, Tasmania, Australia. Hazel ( Jane ) Margaret Johnson 1923 – 2008.
Doris Johnson, 1924- 2010 Kathleen Johnson, I do not know where they were born.
I don't know if Andrew had a Will.
Jimnic.
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Minnie McCarthy married 15 February in 1906 to Andrew Johnson. 21 yrs. Church of the Apostles Minnie even gives her mothers name exactly as Jane ( Saul ) McCarthy. on the Marriage certificate. Minnie’s mother signed the Consent form exactly as Jane (Saul ) McCarthy. Jimnic.
Good to get the names of the children ;D
So, we see from your statement above that after all, SAUL was the middle name of the mother, NOT her surname at any time.
It is an important difference.
It is still quite possible her MAIDEN SURname was BIRD.
Her MAIDEN SURname was not requested at her daughter's marriage .
ADDING, Are you able to tell us the names of the Brothers and sisters you say Mnnie MCCARTHY had?
Sue
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I wonder if SAUL was Jane's mother's nee name? Perhaps we could look for a marriage of BIRD=SAUL ...... and perhaps a birth of a Jane BIRD, circa 1860 (With variations for Jane ;D )
Cheers, JM
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I could be way off track, and perhaps too far into the 20th Century, but co-incidence of names, cemetery, denomination, etc .... :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/51468890 23 March 1928
KAROOLA.
Mr. Charles Carolas Bird, who died in Launceston on Friday, was one of the first settlers on the second river in the Lilydale district, he having resided there continuously for 52 years.
Deceased,who was much respected, was the only son of the late Mr. Jas. Bird of Mowbray, Launceston. The burial took place in the Catholic Cemetery at Karoola on Sunday. Father O'Connor conducted the service in the church, and at the graveside.
The chief mourners were all the survivors of the family, five sons and three daughters. and a
great many near relatives. Mrs. Bird died four years ago. She was the second daughter of the late Cornelius McCarthy, formerly of the Westbury district.
Cheers, JM
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The family were Roman Catholics and if it hasn't been done already I would suggest that you request a search for Minnie's baptism via the Hobart Archdiocese Archives.
http://hobart.catholic.org.au/content/archives
"Genealogical researchers are advised to send their enquiries by mail or email. Original baptism and marriage registers are not available to researchers but details can be provided from a computer database. The current fee for each search is $25. Monies received help towards conservation work on fragile registers."
Catholic baptisms usually contain the names of sponsors which can sometimes be a clue to other family members. They might also make mention of Aboriginality if indeed this was the case.
I would though confirm with them that their 'computer database' contains ALL the information from the register, and as Jane and Cornelius appear not to have married I would also give them all the other possible surnames that Minnie might have been recorded under.
Her age at burial suggests that she was born around 1891, but perhaps with their database they might not need to have an exact year.
http://www.launceston.tas.gov.au/lcc/index.php?c=30&burial_record=33849
Jane and Cornelius have a headstone - do you know what the inscription says?
http://eheritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/resources/fullimagedf27.html?ID=LFH_09798&ImageNum=1
Of all the family trees I have looked at, not one person has noted where they got the name BIRD from in connection to Jane. As JM has noted, Cornelius's daughter Sarah married Charles BIRD, and (I think) his son John married Mary Ann BIRD, but I don't see what the connection is to Jane.
Debra :)
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There are very few SAULs in Tasmania and most seem to be related to Charles and Lilly who arrived in Tas around 1883 from Victoria. All of their children are accounted for.
Debra :)
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http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/search/results?qu=charles+bird&rw=24
Marriage Charles BIRD/Sarah McCARTHY
Sue
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Minnie McCarthy was temporarily staying in Launceston Tasmania. Minnie was born in Bangore. Tasmania. Minnie McCarthy married 15 February in 1906 to Andrew Johnson. 21 yrs. Church of the Apostles Minnie even gives her mothers name exactly as Jane ( Saul ) McCarthy. on the Marriage certificate. Minnie’s mother signed the Consent form exactly as Jane (Saul ) McCarthy. Not Bird.
Hi there,
I am wondering if there's been a mis-transcription of the Clergy's writing. Afterall, it was the clergyman who recorded the details given by the bride and the groom, and it was the clergyman who recorded the name of the person giving consent for the bride to marry. In that era, registers .... civil and parish ..... were all recorded in longhand, and sometimes some of the writing can be difficult to read.
By closely inspecting the actual record, is it possible that " (Saul) " could be better transcribed as " Sarah "
McCARTHY Minnie
JOHNSON Andrew
15 Feb 1906 Reg#722
Church of the Apostles, Launceston
and
jimnic can you possibly post a snip of the signature of the mother Jane Saul?
Cheers, JM
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Good suggestion JM, I was looking at what other names SAUL could look like but didn't think of 'Sarah'.
In my searchings I noticed one name on a document transcribed as 'SAUL' but to me the name looked like 'TAIT', so it is very easy to misunderstand what is written if the handwriting is a bit scrawly.
Minnie’s mother signed the Consent form exactly as Jane (Saul ) McCarthy.
Jimnic.
Jimnic, are there brackets around the name 'Saul' in the original document?
Debra :)
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As JM has noted, Cornelius's daughter Sarah married James BIRD, and (I think) his son John married Mary Ann BIRD, but I don't see what the connection is to Jane.
Debra :)
Sorry, getting myself mixed up here with the two Cornelius McCARTHEYs. Mary Ann and John mentioned above were the chilldren of Cornelius Snr. and it was his son Cornelius Jnr. born 1852 who was Jane's partner.
This is probably Cornelius Jnr.:
McCARTHEY, Given Name Not Recorded
Gender: Male
Father: Cornelius McCARTHEY
Mother: Margaret CLANCY
Date of birth: 12 Jun 1852
Registered at Launceston
Debra :)
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:)
Last evening I got my trusty pen and ink out. In long hand I wrote " Bird" so the B is in the old fashioned style..... so could be mis-read as an old fashioned S with flourishes. I can easily see 'aul' where I wrote "ird" as I did not 'dot' my 'i'.
So "Bird" is a possibility ;D just as "Sarah" is also a possibility and of course "Saul" and Tait" and of course the far more usual mis-reading of the "S" for "L" :)
Cheers, JM
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I have been hoping to learn something about any siblings of Minnie (nee MCCARTHY) ;D
Cando gave a list of children from an online tree, which of course, may or may not be accurate.
Death notice for a daughter of Cornelius and Jane named Sarah SIMMONS 1940 in NSW
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52374442
This notice states she was the daughter of Cornelius and Jane McCARTHY-
But ::)
The NSW death
19364/1940 SIMMONS Sarah
Father CORNELIUS
Mother MARY
At WAVERLEY
She could not have been a child of the first wife of Cornelius whose name was Mary Ann(nee BARRETT) and who died in 1878 because the notice gives an age at death of 47. So she was born around 1893.
This seems to be the NSW marriage
11252/1914 SIMMONS Christopher
MCCARTHY Sarah
At WOOLLAHRA
Sue
ADDING
Her funeral Notice-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17680791
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jane SAUL born ? died 1915. CORNELIUS McCARTHY 1852- 1903.
THEIR CHILDREN.ALICE, JOHN, GEORGE, MARGARET, SARAH, CARRIE, ANN, MARY, MINNIE.
There were several Julius McCarthy provided by the children od Julius & Jane.
Thanks for all your help... jimnic.
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Quote from: sparrett on January 30, 2015, 04:18:22 PM
jimnic can you possibly post a snip of the signature of the mother Jane Saul?
It would help if you could please do the above. It has been mentioned twice on the thread.
Cheers
Cando
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Yes please ;D
From the image of the marriage cert for Minnie in 1906.
Cheers, JM
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I can't work out how to do it. I have scanned it but that is as far as I can get.
besides, I said how it is. I have all the other information.
I think I will close the topic as I can get no further advanced.
jimnic
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Hi, in answer to rereading other messages,
Yes, there are brackets around the nee name. and it is clear.
I know about the Bird name, that is from one of the daughters.
Yes, there is a Julius McCarthy jr. The dates fix that problem.
jimnic
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Hi there,
There is a snip tool on most computers. It is a very effective way of taking a photo of the image on your puter's screen and then uploading the snip as an attachment to your post. Some puters have the tool as one of the menu items under Accessories.
Cheers, JM
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-AU/windows7/products/features/snipping-tool
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Dear majm. I tried attachments.
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majm that got it.......jimnic.
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Thank you :)
I have all the other information.
Having information and knowing whether it is correct is a totally different matter.
Have you considered JM's suggestion to search the parish records for the baptisms of the children to Cornelius and Jane? There are many online trees and all have differing information.
Minnie’s mother signed the Consent form exactly as Jane (Saul ) McCarthy.
It would appear that it isn't actually Jane's signature just her name as giving consent.
Who were the witnesses to the marriage?
Cando
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Yes, Thank you.
May I jot some thoughts down.
Well, I can see various names inside those brackets. The scribe's writing at first glance seems to be 'legible', and it seems to be Saul. Then when I next look, after reading the bride's name .... was given to the Marriage of ....... I read the bracketed name as Lane, and when I showed one of my colleagues who is of the same vintage as me, they read the bracketed names as Laurel, and the bride's given name became their focus
I am not at all convinced that the name in the brackets represents Jane's nee or former surname. But then again, I am not familiar with the paperwork required for a Roman Catholic priest to conduct a marriage in Tasmania. I am NSW centric, but even in that aspect, I am not overly educated in the Roman Catholic Administrative system. So, I cannot say for example that this Consent form was prepared at the same time as the parish register was prepared for the bride and groom to sign. I do note that the wording suggests to me that this Consent form was completed AFTER the marriage ceremony (was given) .... but was that form completed on the day of the marriage, or perhaps days/weeks/ later.
Does the priest forward the details to the Tas BDM on a weekly, monthly or quarterly basis. .... So, could he have delayed completing his administrative responsibilities until the end of the quarter .... So, could he be relying on his memory or reading from his diary notes.
What info has the clergy written on the actual marriage certificate itself?
Cheers, JM
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The minister officiating at the marriage of Minnie, D. F. X BEECHINOR had a long and illustrious career in Tasmania and was most highly esteemed.
Here is a small item about him
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/52394844
Sue
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I agree with Cando, the name as it appears on the document was not written by Jane herself.
Like majm, I am unsure whether it is a nee name or??
However quite possibly it was an interpretation of verbal information, spoken to the officiating person and written as best as good be fathomed.
Literacy rates among the population of the time were low and accents variable.
There was a family names SOWELL which is one of many a possibility!
Sue
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"...jane SAUL born ? died 1915. CORNELIUS McCARTHY 1852- 1903.
THEIR CHILDREN.ALICE, JOHN, GEORGE, MARGARET, SARAH, CARRIE, ANN, MARY, MINNIE".
How have you identified these people to be children of Jane and Cornelius, and siblings of Minnie?
Can you please give a full transcription of the marriage certificate 1906....I cannot see if it has been done here already.
The death certificate for Jane McCARTHY d. 1915 would be useful to you. It should have birthplace, age/s at marriage/s, time in the colony (if born elsewhere), children born.
Children would be counted as number of males / females, alive / deceased.
From TAS BDM Federation Index
birth JOHNSON female 26 Jul 1908 parents Andrew William / Minnie Amelia
This second given name might be useful in locating Minnie.
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First time user, I have read this thread with interest as Jane is my great great grandmother as her daughter Margaret 1880-1913 married James Millwood and their child Cornelius was my grandfather. I have recently done a DNA test and apart from the expected Uk, Scotland, Ireland links there was a 3% link to Central and Eastern China which was a surprise. I have narrowed it down to the McCarthy side by looking at DNA from other members in that lineage and it appears to begin with Jane and Cornelius. I have explored Cornelius's parents and siblings but no evidence of any Chinese DNA through that line so I have to assume it comes from Janes liniage but there is not much info to be found. I have found a birth certificate that may be her which lists her parents as James Bird an Ann Rickett (both convicts) and have also seen a marriage permission document for them. I am not sure if this is her parents? Has anyone else had a DNA test showing the Chinese ties? It doesnt appear in James and Anns other children so I am wondering if I have the right parents? a bit of a road block at this point, anyone else found anything re our mystery Jane?