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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: GEN10 on Monday 04 July 05 17:32 BST (UK)
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My 3x ggrandmother Mary Robb poses me a right quandary!
I have a series of questions that I need help with:
Who are Mary's parents?
Who is the father to her first child William Smith?
Why can't I find any records of Mary's birth?
Why can't I find any records of her mother's marriage?
Mary married George Gordon Benzies on the 20th Feb 1862 in the parish of Strichen. On her marriage certificate it states that her parents were, Archibald Robb reputed father, dec? This I presume meant that Mary had no contact with him and didn't know if he was dead or alive. Her mother was Ann Wilson or Willon maiden name Jafferay. It gives her age as 35. This must make her born around 1826, and I can't find a marriage certificate for her either.
On her death certificate it gives her age as 79, this makes her born around 1832. Now I do know that you can't always take the given age for granted. It states that her parent's are Archibald Robb, but her mother is Mary Birnie. I do know that an Archibald Robb and Mary Birnie married in 1849.
When Mary married George Benzies she already had an illegitimate child William Willox Robb (2x g/grandfather) born 1859. On his marriage certificate to Ann Williamson it states that she had been married to Williams father, I know this to be not true, and his name was Robert Smith.
Having run round in circles and totally confused myself, can anyone help me PLEASE!
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Hi,
It's all very intriguing, isn't it. There are two (or three) Archibald Robbs.
One married to Mary Birnie in 1849 in Lonmay, and another to Sophia Shirras in 1856 in Strichen. Even the earliest marriage Mary would only be 13. Was she the offspring of Archibald Robb and Elizabeth Sinclair in Old Deer 1839, even that is too late for both the possible birth dates of Mary. According to the IGI they only had Alexander in 1842.
There is a Mary Ann Yule Jafferay born in Strichen to Ann Jafferay in 1858, but that doesn't fit the dob!
I haven't helped but hopefully someone will come up with the answers or point you in the right direction.
Good hunting,
Grothenwell
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Hi GEN10,
At this stage I haven't had a chance to look for a baby Mary, I feel that she was known as Mary Robb, as we see in the 1841c below....... But she will probably be christened as Mary Jaffrey.
1841 Census
Strichen-Aberdeenshire
Address: New Leeds
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
JAFFREY Robert M 56 Labourer Aberdeenshire
JAFFREY Mary F 63 Aberdeenshire
ROBB Mary F 10 Aberdeenshire
Robert and Mary will most likely be the grandparents.
And this will be the death of Marys mother, I feel......
1874 Ann Jaffrey,,,,,,,,other names....Willox and Fraser....
66yrs Strichen aberdeen 241/00 0009.
Tell us how you go with the certificate.
put in the search the hightened words.
regards
kenjo :)
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Hya Kenjo and Grothenwell thanks for your help.
Kenjo, did what you said using the information that you gave me on Ann Jaffrey. I have the certificate and it gives me alot of answers. Ann's parents were:
Robert Jaffrey Police constable
Elizabeth Fraser Domestic servant.
Her husband is named as William Willox. Occupation: Mason
Ann died at New Leeds, Strichen.
Now!
Mary Robb was born according to Census material at New Leeds.
Mary named her Son William Willox Robb.
Mary's father was named Robert and this is the christian name of the said father of William.
I don't know if the Smith surname was as numerous as it is now, so I wonder if she used it knowing it couldn't be traced
Checked out the OPR's for Mary Robb. Checked under Robb, Jaffrey and then last Willox.
I found nothing that had the remotest match for Robb and Jaffrey but I did find:
Mary Willox 15/4/1833 born Lonmay, father William Willox. No mother is not given.
Ann Jaffrey married William Willox on the 3rd of Feb 1833. It's obvious from Mary's date of birth that Ann was pregnant when she got married. I'm wondering if William knew at the time that Mary was not his daughter and married Ann to give the child a legitimate name?
That's another question that I think will go unanswered.
Gen10
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That's great!
I wonder why ?
When Mary got married she put her age up 7 yrs?(is that right)?
How old was George Benzies.
Also you could get the Parish records out for Strchen and Lonmay and she if there was anything wriitten in the church sessions.
Mary's father was named Robert and this is the christian name of the said father of William.
is this an error?
regards
kenjo,
:) I'm still a little confused
Modified.................
I wonder.....when Robert Jaffrey was a Policeman? and not a labourer.
and whether Elizabeth fraser is meant to be Mary fraser, or was Ann an illegitimate child of Robert and an Elizabeth frazer, and then he married a "Mary"
this is 1841c
1841 Census
3 Records found
Place: Strichen-Aberdeenshire Enumeration Address: Whitebuts
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Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
WILLOX William M 35 Mason Aberdeenshire
WILLOX Ann F 25 Aberdeenshire
WILLOX William M 5 Aberdeenshire
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Hya Kenjo
Mary's father was named Robert and this is the christian name of the said father of William.
What I should have said is:
Mary's grandfatherfather is named Robert. Mary named the father of her illegitimate son as Robert Smith. I wondered if she just thought of the name or was there really a "Robert Smith?"
Gen10
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Hya Kenjo
Mary's father was named Robert and this is the christian name of the said father of William.
What I should have said is:
Mary's grandfather's name is Robert and I wondered if she just pulled the name out of thin air so that her son had a father?
I wonder.....when Robert Jaffrey was a Policeman? and not a labourer.
and whether Elizabeth fraser is meant to be Mary fraser, or was Ann an illegitimate child of Robert and an Elizabeth frazer, and then he married a "Mary"
This is something I will have to do more research on. I do know that My William Willox Robb was not born until 1859, I have the birth certificate, so am I right in presuming that the William Willox on the 1841 Census was Mary's brother or half brother?
Thanks for the extract from the 1841 census. Will now go to SP to see if there are any more Willox's born to the same couple.
I still don't understand why on her death certificate it would say that her parents were Mary Birnie and Archibald Robb. None of her family signed for the certificate it was a neighbour who did that.
GEN10
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;D
Sorry darling......just ignore the posting here.....
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Sorry Kenjo
I still don't understand why on her death certificate it would say that her parents were Mary Birnie and Archibald Robb. None of her family signed for the certificate it was a neighbour who did that.
ErrorSPAM
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I am talking about Mary Robbs death certificate and not Ann's.
GEN10
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Do you realise,,,
That I believe there are more errors, than correct. when it comes to deaths, that are informed by grandchildren and neighbours.
You think about it.........
the registrar says who was the deceased's parents. and granddaughter never knew them, grandma never said on her death bed.....when you go and register my death..... don't
forget who my parents were......because.....they died 60 yrs ago...
We won't know why the neighbour said what they said.
But in no way can you see it true?
see if you can ignore everything you know now, and workas if it were true ,,,,,,,,,the burnie part and see if it works.
if it is impossible go back to what is correct and ignore the birnie part..
what do you think.
or do I talk a load of jibberish twoddle.
kenjo
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Hya
I've taken a look at the birnie side of things and they don't pan out. It does bug me though! Maybe she found out later in life that Mary was her real mother, I doubt it. If Mary Robb can lie on her son/s marriage certificate then I think that she is very good at telling stories.
I have another theory! Maybe she found out that her father Archibald Robb married Mary Birnie. Maybe he was just a young boy when he got Ann pregnant, perhaps below the legal age of consent? It happens! To save any awkward questions Mary Robb just let people think they were her parents. Oh how I wish I had a time machine!
I wonder why ?
When Mary got married she put her age up 7 yrs?(is that right)?
How old was George Benzies
George Gordon Benzies was a pensioner a Chelsea one at that. He served in the 92 Foot Regiment for 20 years. He was pensioned out in 1841 aged 40. I think that Mary latched on to the thought of a regular income in the way of his pension, plus the fact that he was a crofter. She was very obliging to George, she bore him 4 daughters. LOL
He was 59 when he married Mary Robb.
Mind you I will have to scan you a copy of his death certificate. There is so much writing on it, it is barely legible. He died a bloody awful death and I mean that literally! I did wonder at one point if Mary had done him in. Poisoning, drowning, it's got the lot.
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Oh! I can hardly wait!!!! ;D
Post the cert on here. so the girls (they know who they are)can have a gander as well.
How exciting.
I really don't mean to be rude. maybe i need to be struck by lightning.
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how do I do that? Talk me through it
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OK.
scan your cert. then use a program like urfranview?
and save just what is required. save to your desk top. and be sure you know the name. save as JPG. (one thing I forgot to mention, make it smaller than 300kg)
come to this posting and reply ..... under the window you type in, click on the additional options in red....
it will open up and where it says attach
there is an empty space and next to that is a grey box with Browse click on the browse button.
and search for the saved cert on your desktop.
click on it, and then , open. and the name will appear, in the attach box. and then Post.
and then your away.
Be very patient............ and then it will appear slowly....
if an error occurs, the file may be too big.
tell if so , and I will tell you haow to check if it is too big..
I will be away all day now. so hopefully when I come back, it will be there.
Good luck.
kenjo ;)
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When Mary married George Benzies she already had an illegitimate child William Willox Robb (2x g/grandfather) born 1859. On his marriage certificate to Ann Williamson it states that she had been married to Williams father, I know this to be not true, and his name was Robert Smith.
I would doubt if Mary actually stated herself, on William's marriage certificate, that she had been married to Robert Smith. It's more likely to have been a mistake on the part of the registrar, an assumption? Registrars copied marriage certificates, they were not filled in by parties involved. Hope I have got that right here!!! ;D
Going back to the 1841 census for Strichen - Jaffrey family. Could this be their marriage:
Robert Jaffrey and Mary George
13th August, 1812
Strichen.
Not going to help, but wondered if you had seen this.
I would go with Kenjo's explanations for Mary and Ann's death certificates. By the time it came to death, informants probably didn't know who parents were. Having said that, it could have been the Alexander Robb who married Mary Birnie, who was your Mary's father.
One thing, if you got those records from ScotlandsPeople, there will be two marriages and three deaths (usually) on the page. Check every surname to see if any mistakes have been made. Seen it happen ::)
Not much help, sorry. Dorothy
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Hya Kenjo
Here is the death certificate for George Gordon Benzies. I hope there is someone out there who can decifer exactly what it says.
Gen10
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George Gordon Benzies
retired crofter and pensioner
married to Mary Robb
he died 15th October
cause of death looks like - loss of blood from wound on left from no doubt..........aided by drowning
then I'm lost, sorry
Ysabeau
What does the writing by the number 26 mean
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Gen10, sorry can't do any better than ysabea. There's a RCE on this cert. If you order a copy from GRO/ScotlandsPeople, then the information should be on the back of the certificate. Not always, but possible. RCEs should be coming online sometime........?????
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Gen10
I know it's not relevant to original posting, but what happened to the widow ?
Ysabeau
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Wow! Isn't this exciting! :o :o
I think it says..part of anyway.....
Loss of blood from wound on left arm, no doubt, attributed? to by no pressure and so did by? drowning
---------contents--------------???? stomach unless it had been ingested immediately before death.
It appears he was saying the amount of water in stomach,,,maybe? ???
kenjo 8)
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Hi,
drowning to judge from............stomach unless it....ingested immediately before death
couple of more words to go......but is it making any sense.
Is there anything this poor man didn't die of ?
Ysabeau
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Oh dear :-\
Loss of blood from wound in left arm no doubt ......... back by
go (going) forward and suddenly drowning to judged from the water found in the stomach unless it had been ingested immediately before death.
back meaning his back - as in a back injury?
to as we would now say - also suddenly drowning
judged from the water - judging from the water found in the stomach he made his conclusions that he either fell into the water or drowned by what he had ingested.
Think this is where the RCE might come in - correction to the cause of death?
No ???
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To everyone
Thanks for all the help you are giving me ;D With this collaboration It will get deciphered.
Ysabeau, his widow lived until 1911. Mary died aged 79 at Legiemuir, Udny, she never married again after that. She didn't have it easy but then again, who did in those days? She lost two daughters in 1881 within 2 months of each other to TB, leaving two other daughters who married and lived to make old bones.
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Hello everyone
Here is what we have managed to decipher on the death certificate at the present time.
Loss of blood from wound on left arm no doubt attributed to by......... pressure and aided by drowning to ......... ......... the ....... ......... .......... the stomach unless it had been ingested .......... .......... before death.
I think I will send for the RCE. Would it have made the newspapers? If it did then I could check them too.
Gen10
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Hi
,
Definitely worth checking the newspapers.......after all they would probably have made background checks themselves if they ran the story
Ysabeau
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don't forget that there was the words "no pressure"
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"no pressure" ?????
Gen10, before you get involved in the expense of ordering the certificate, the RCE could give you further information, or it could give as litle as a change of date, word, etc.
Get back to SP and ask them to decipher what is on the certificate first. GROS will do this for you. Submit a contact form found on their website.
Dorothy
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I've got it ladies - gosh, I don't know what you'd do without me !! ::)
"Loss of blood from wound on left arm no doubt contributed to by exposure and aided by drowning to judge from the water found in the stomach unless it had been ingested immediately before death"
What do you think?
Prue
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Three cheers, Prue ;D ;D ;D Well done. Now change judged to judging and there you have it. Ah well, no poisoning after all ::)
Dorothy
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Oh Prue! ;D
Lucky, you don't charge a consults fee
So not only do you have xray vision,
you also have a crystal ball...
thanks alot ;D
JO
Prue can you decypher, column 2?
sorry GEN10 for taking over.....
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THANK YOU, THANKYOU!
Well done Pru!
Kenjo I don't think that you are taking over, I was going to ask if anyone could decipher column 2. I know it mentions something about a lair, and the minister of the parish. As for that it is barely illegible. Going to get onto SP today to see if it can be transcribed. I bet Pru's quicker!
GEN10
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Sorry so tardy, I went to bed!! Here we go:
Between 8 & 9 o'c of the 10th and 2pm of the 10th October.
Supposed in a burn in the established Church Manse Strichan, parish of Strichan, and County of Aberdeen, accidentally.
The REverend Charles Stewart
The writing to the left of the actual entry, that's written sideways, is "See reg. of Con. Ents. Vol 1 p.67, November 16th 1877"
Prue 8)
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Oh Prue!,
What a gem, you are... :D
So he did fall into a stream?
Exactly how big is a burn? ........creek, stream, or river?
girls!
someone?
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Hi Kenjo and Pru,
A "burn" is a stream, normally a fast-moving, slippery rock-filled trap for the foolhardy.
I suppose the writing on left applies to the coroners report
Ysabeau
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Message on lefthand side - RCE - Register of Corrected Entries. A Register where any corrections to the certificate are entered 8) 8) 8)
(Look sunglasses - you can tell the sun is shining here today!)
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Sorry GEN10 but have to ask.....why two times of death ???
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Guess no one was around when he died ???
Strichen must have been quite a place in those days. I have a death certificate which says "about 2 p.m. at or near Wardhead" :o
DD
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Mary Robb was my great-great-grandmother and was the 6th wife (at the last count!) of George Gordon Benzies (1803-1877) and I have been doing research on the Benzies line for over 20 years.
The first problem has been over Mary's death certificate of 1911 when she was living at Logiemuir, Udny, Aberdeenshire. The certificate was registered by a neighbour and he may have been unaware of her full family history. The only thing that seems to agree with her death certificate and her marriage certificate to George Gordon Benzies in 1862 is that Archibald Robb was her father and was deceased and he was an agricultural labourer. I personally would put more reliance on the marriage certificate.
To me it seems that Ann Jaffery may be the one who married on 3rd February 1833 to William Willox, which would mean that Mary's biolological father Archibald Robb was dead when she was about 6 years old. I know that when Mary married George Gordon Benzies (whom I will call GGB from hereon) he took in her illegitimate son William Willox Robb, later being brought up by GGB as his son as William Benzies but who married as William Smith. I believe that William Robb/Benzies/Smith's father was Robert Smith of the Gordon Highlanders (then the 92nd Foot). There is some evidence in the Strichen Kirk Session registers to suggest that Mary had 2 other illegitimate children, if (and I stress if) it was the same Mary Robb. I do know that Mary Robb is buried at Udny Green and not at Strichen where GGB should be buried (if anyone knows where, please let me know).
As far as the relationship between Mary and GGB there is evidence (see Lorna Moon, My Secret Mother, by Richard de Mille) that by this GGB was a bit unhappy (not surprising as 5 of his wives had died and 6 of his children). GGB had been widowed for a year when he married Mary. When GGB left the 92nd Foot his pension was small and it has been suggested the regiment did from time to time send him supplies to keep him going. Although GGB was a crofter after leaving the regiment in 1842 (having joined in 1821) he was (it was said) to be a local recruiting agent for the regiment.
The question of GGB's death seems to be an accident, the local magazine The Journal (from Aberdeen) reported GGB as being very sad when he disappeared and his body was not found for nearly a week. There has been a suggestion of suicide but the corrected death entry (after being sent to the Deputy Procurator-Fiscal) talks of cuts at his elbow. This was before Fatal Accident Inquiries were started.
I would be interested in the staement about two of Mary's children who "lived to make old bones", these seem to be my great-grandmother (Isa Ann Benzies and her sister Margaret Benzies). Isa (Isabella) like Margaret worked in a mill in or around Strichen, Isabella at one time ran a boat service to help people cross the loch of Strathbeg near Rathen and Margaret (Maggie) ran a temperance hotel in Strichen for many years. One of Margaret's daughters (Helen Nora Wilson Low, also known as Lorna Moon) ended up in Hollywood working for MGM pictures during the 1920s before Lorna's death in 1930.
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Hi dmatt :D
WoW!
Even though, this is not my posting or my tree, what you have written is very impressive, even though, I am confused :-\
There are so many twists and turns, aren't there! ;D
Well Done to you.
from kenjo
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Hi,
Kenjo you're not the only one who is confused............does this mean "GEN10" and "dmatt" are cousins ?
Ysabeau
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Hello all - I'm new to this site. Apologies for butting in on a long-running dialogue. I have a problem that seems to have some things in common with names discussed here and I wondered if anyone could help me with it:
Andrew Scott (born about 1755) and Ann Dunbar (born about 1755) lived at Dartfield, Lonmay. They had two children (that I know of) – Andrew Scott (Sept 10 1775) and James Scott (February 14, 1782).
(I note that in the 1851 census, the occupants at Dartfield are Andrew Jaffrey, his wife Ann, their children Elizabeth, John, Margaret and Andrew, and his widowed mother-in-law (?) Elspet Jaffrey.)
James Scott (February 14, 1782) had an association with Margaret Bissett to produce William Scott (July 27, 1806) – the entry is in the Lonmay Episcopal Register and reads ‘1806, July 27, Margaret Bissett, in Blairmormond, a natural son which she gave to James Scot in Badycairn in this parish, named William’
Margaret Bisset subsequently had an association with William Will (?) and had a daughter Mary Birnie (or possibly Binnie) (April 25, 1827) – the entry in Lonmay Episcopal Register reads ‘1827, April 25, William Will, road[?] labourer a daughter Mary Birnie (Binnie?). Mother’s name, Margaret Bissett, daughter of Alexander Bissett, Blairmormond, Par of Lonmay’
James Scott subsequently married Anne Dunbar on February 21 1808 at Lonmay (although I’m a little worried about this as his mother was allegedly an Ann Dunbar as well) and had two children – Margaret Scott (October 18, 1808) and George Scott (August 29, 1830) – James Scott continued to lived at Baldycairn / Bawdycairn / Badoycairn / etc, Lonmay.
Convoluted relationships but could Mary Birnie (Binnie?) be a candidate for the Mary Robb mentioned here.
Grateful for any information/views
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Hello IanA, no your Mary Birnie is not one of our candidates. It has already been clarified that Mary Robb's mother was Ann Jaffray and her father was James Robb. Ann and James never married. Ann married William Willox and it looks like Ann was pregnant with Mary when she married William. GEN10
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Hi, i am new to roots chat so please forgive any errors on my part.i stumbled on this site and discussion by chance and i am delighted to have done so. like many others the domestic arrangements of my ggg/grandmother mary robb have intrigued and puzzled me particularly the entry on her death cert. having read through the forums comments i am now much more at ease with the idea of misinformation by a neighbor as for GGB who knows i have never found his grave as yet in strichen but will have another look and will also visit udny. Mary's son william my gg/father committed suicide in arbroath, angus 1932 i would be delighted to chat to any of this branch of the family. :)
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Hello Gyp, it's good to hear from you. I often wondered what happened to William and Ann's children.
Mary's son William was my gg grandfather, yes he committed suicide in 1922 Arbroath Angus from coal gas poisoning. His daughter Sarah was my ggrandmother. Which one of the family are you descended from?
As for GGB's grave perhaps it's unmarked because he also committed suicide or perhaps the family couldn't afford a grave stone? I think the latter is more likely.
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hELLO gyp just realised who you were!
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Hi, Gen
I thought you would soon suss me! i am still picking away at this family of ours and still picking up something new every so often i am new to this site and find it very good.
regards.
M.
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My surname is also Robb and my ancestors come from Aberdeenshire, but none of the forenames you mention are the same. I also have a Jaffrey's as ancestors using the foregoing spelling but it has also been spelt Jaffray. If you have not already tried these variations perhaps it would be worth a try. My ancestors all originate from the Methlick, Fyvie, and Auchterless area between about 1700 and 1900.
Good luck with your ongoing enquiries
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Hi, thanks for your comments i agree it is unlikely there is a connection and as for the spellings that could change from census to census :)
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Can anyone help me follow up on the James Scott mentioned?
Newbie!
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My surname is also Robb and my ancestors come from Aberdeenshire, but none of the forenames you mention are the same. I also have a Jaffrey's as ancestors using the foregoing spelling but it has also been spelt Jaffray. If you have not already tried these variations perhaps it would be worth a try. My ancestors all originate from the Methlick, Fyvie, and Auchterless area between about 1700 and 1900.
Good luck with your ongoing enquiries
Hi Traprain, who are your Robb ancestors from Auchterless? My Robb’s came from there as well.