RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: redmr2red on Friday 23 January 15 02:53 GMT (UK)
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Open their Web Site and joined http://probatesearch.service.gov.uk
Activated my account and did a search. Wonderful it came up with a Will for my GG Grandfather.
Paid my 10 Pounds and waited 10 days. it arrived in 14 days. He died "Intestate" THERE IS NO WILL!!!!! all I got was a one page "Grant".
Feeling cheated ::) I asked for a refund and so far (10 days) I've had no reply. >:( >:(
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Are you sure the entry mentioned the word "will", and not "grant", and/or "administration"? If there is mention of a will, then they should refund your money for being misleading. However, if it only says that probate was granted, that does not mean there was a will. Have you compared the entry to others, to compare the wording?
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Doing a search again yes to word Administration is there. I searched for a Will, how is anyone supposed to know the word Administration means there is no Will.
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Unfortunately, you learned the same way I did; by ordering an admon and being disappointed with what you received.
I don't like your chances of a refund sadly.
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Hi
If you go to the Help section it has a description of the various terminology.
From the Help guide
Administration
A legal document issued by a Probate Registry when a person has died without making a valid will (called intestate) and is issued to an administrator of the estate. This is usually the lawful spouse if any, or nearest blood relative
Andy
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It is a good warning, especially for overseas clients. Not good value for money considering the exchange rates
10 pounds is $30 here, no thanks
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Given the paucity of information on an admon, these entities would look less money-grabbing if perhaps they made the admons freely available, and only charged for wills.
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Given the paucity of information on an admon, these entities would look less money-grabbing if perhaps they made the admons freely available, and only charged for wills.
They cannot do that due to the legal requirements placed on government departments to cover the costs of supplying any document.
Cheers
Guy
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If you are subscribed to the Lost Cousins newsletter, there's an interesting article about the Wills and Probate website
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters/latejan15news.htm#Wills
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This link here is also useful where Dawnsh says:
Only order the document if the calendar specifically says that 'probate' has been granted. Letters of Administration have little or no more information than the calendars give.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709977.0
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That is usually true, but when I got a copy of the letter of administration for my great-grandmother it listed the names of all her children as next of kin and there was one who I had never heard of before, so it was well worth the money.
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My Cousin recently applied for a will for our great grandfather who died in 1950. After 13 days she got a message stating it was ready for download. However upon visiting the relevant page there was nothing to download. She then sent two messages to ask what was happening. Yesterday she got the following response.
The item that you have ordered is not available. All sealed documents issued pre-1963 have been destroyed. HMCTS policy was to retain all sealed documents issued before 1963 for 50 years from the date of issue.
What is a ‘sealed document’?
The sealed wills/grants in the probate index are when property or money in a bank, a trust fund etc are outside the jurisdiction of the country where the will is being proved. For example if the will was being proved in New York then in this case the 'outside' country is England or Wales and the country the will is being proved in is the USA.
I have referred your order to HMCTS so that you will receive a refund for your order.
My points here are why isn't this stated clearly on the website and also an apology would have been nice.
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If you go to this Beta Site and click on help, there is clear information there
Mike
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. . . Yesterday she got the following response.
The item that you have ordered is not available. All sealed documents issued pre-1963 have been destroyed. HMCTS policy was to retain all sealed documents issued before 1963 for 50 years from the date of issue.
What is a ‘sealed document’?
The sealed wills/grants in the probate index are when property or money in a bank, a trust fund etc are outside the jurisdiction of the country where the will is being proved. For example if the will was being proved in New York then in this case the 'outside' country is England or Wales and the country the will is being proved in is the USA.
I have referred your order to HMCTS so that you will receive a refund for your order.
this is interesting. It happened to me, (my daughter actually went in to Holborn) and it wasn't suggested that I get a refund.
Must follow that up!
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I think that the moral of the story is, as ever, to heed the old researchers' adage of making sure that you understand why, how, and for what purpose a document was made before attempting to make use of that document.
Digitisation has given us all access to a vast range of documents, in an instant, that would previously have taken a lifetime to track down. Compared to the amateur genealogists of our parents' and grandparents' generation, we are exceedingly lucky in what we have available to us. BUT free availability of information is a double-edged sword. We can turn up a record online ever so easily. Finding out what it is, and why and how it was made, may be a little more difficult.
TUTORIAL ON WILLS, PROBATES AND GRANTS OF LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION (Part 1)
Until 1858, the administration of wills and estates was a matter for the ecclesiastical courts, not the civil courts. The procedures which they adopted were largely adopted from 1858 onwards, so there is an essential continuity of terminology, processes and documents. All that changes it the court that administers the process, and the archive you have to consult to obtain copy documents.
A Will, or "Last Will and Testament", is a document in which a person dictates how they wish their worldly possessions to be distributed after their deaths. Traditionally it was made by a person on their death bed, but in recent years it has become much more common for people to make a will "just in case" at an early age, and to review it from time to time. In part this is because with the coming of the railways and the motor car, sudden death in catastrophic circumstances, with no time to make a will, became much more common (or, at least, people became much more apprehensive of it).
It is all very well and good MAKING a will ... but there needs to be SOMEBODY who will actually carry out your wishes and put them into effect (or "execute the will") after you have died. These people are normally named in the will and are called the "executors". You can have a single executor, or you can have more than one executors.
When you die, the executors have a right to possess your property and to deal with it, BUT ONLY FOR THE PURPOSES OF EXECUTING THE WILL. This right arises FROM THE WILL ITSELF, and in the case of a simple estate, where all of the deceased's property is in the form of chattels or cash which can simply be picked up, taken away and distributed, there is actually no need for the executors to go to Court for a Grant of Probate. They are entitled, by virtue of the Will itself, simply to take the goods and money and distribute them in accordance with the terms of the will.
In practice, however, very few estates are this simple. Most people have a bank account or other property which is held by a third party in some way or another, and where this is the case although the executors are ENTITLED to demand the property be given to them, the bank or other party will be understandably reluctant to hand it over unless the executors can prove their right to the property. The simplest way to do this is to obtain a Grant of Probate, which is a formal document sealed by the Court, notifying the world at large that (a) the deceased has died; (b) the deceased made a will; and (c) the person(s) to whom the Grant is made are entitled, under the will, to administer the deceased's estate.
In order to persuade the Court to make such a Grant, it is necessary for the executors to prove to the Court that (a) the deceased has died; (b) that the deceased made a will; and (c) that the person(s) seeking the Grant is/are the executors named in the will. This is normally done by simple administrative processes, with the executors making sworn declarations to this effect, exhibiting the death certificate and the will, and stating that so far as they are aware this is the last will that the deceased made. In cases where there is a dispute, however, then the Court can hold a full hearing, and the witnesses to the will may be called to give evidence to the Court about the manner in which the will was made and signed, whether the deceased was under any form of duress, whether he or she appeared to be of sound mind, or whatever, depending upon the circumstances of the case.
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TUTORIAL ON WILLS, PROBATES AND GRANTS OF LETTERS OF ADMINISTRATION (Part 2)
Just because a person is named in a will as an executor, that does not mean that they have to execute the will, or take out a Grant of Probate. I could, if I wished, make a will appointing David Cameron and the Archbishop of Canterbury as my executors - but they would not be obliged to accept that appointment.
If the executors named in the will are not willing to act, then there is a bit of an impasse. There are beneficiaries under the will who want to get their hands on the money, and possibly creditors wanting to be paid, but there is nobody with a legal right (apart from the named executors, who are not willing to act) to take possession of the property and to settle the deceased's debts and distribute the remaining estate in accordance with the will. To break this impasse, certain people are entitled to apply to the Court for a Grant entitling them to act instead of the Executors. There is a strictly defined hierarcy, and nobody on a lower rung of that hierarchy is entitled to the Grant unless they can show, not only that the executors are unwilling of unable to act, but that everybody on higher rungs of the hierarchy is also unwilling or unable to act.
This kind of Grant is called a Grant of Letters of Administration with Will Annexed; and to obtain this the Administrator must prove not only the things an executor would need to prove to get a Grant of Probate, they must also prove (1) that the executors named in the will are either unable or unwilling to act; and (2) EITHER that there is nobody with a prior right to seek a Grant of Letters of Administration with Will Annexed; or (2) that everybody with such a prior right is either unable or unwilling to act. The person(s) to whom a Grant of Letters of Administration with Will Annexed is/are made are called Administrators.
Finally, there are situations where there is no known will (or the only known will is for some reason invalid). In this instance the deceased is said to be "intestate" (i.e. they died without a "testament" - recalling that the full name of a will is a "last will and testament"). In this instance, their estate falls to be distributed in accordance with the legal rules which govern the distribution of intestate estates. There is, however, nobody with a right to deal with the property until a Grand of Letters of Adminsitration is made; and the person(s) to whom this Grant is made are called Administrators. The right of the Administrators to deal with the property comprising the deceased's estate arises from the Grant. As with a Grant of Letters of Administration with Will Annexed, there is a strict hierarchy of people who are entitled to apply for a simple grant of Letters of Administration; and for a person lower down the hierarchy to obtain a Grant they need to show EITHER that there is nobody higher up the hierarchy who is entitled to a Grant, or that all such as are entitled are either unwilling or unable to act as Administrators.
So - from 1858 onwards we have three kinds of Grants:
1. A Grant of Probate of a will (or, sometimes, a Grant of Probate of a codicil to a will). This document will have the will or codicil attached to it. It evidences the right of the Executor(s) named in the will to deal with the property in the deceased's estate, in accordance with the terms of the will.
2. A Grant of Letters of Administration will Will Annexed. This document will have a will (and possibly one or more codicil) attached to it. It GRANTS to somebody OTHER than the executor(s) named in the will the right to deal with the property in the deceased's estate, in accordance with the terms of the will. It may also recite the fact that certain other individuals with prior rights to seek a grant are either unable or unwilling to take out a Grant. This would be included to prove that the Administrators named in the Grant were entitled to seek it notwithstanding that there are other people on higher rungs of the hierarchy who have not sought a Grant.
3. A simple Grant of Letters of Administration. This document will not have any will or codicil attached (because it is the document which arises in situations where there is no will). It GRANTS the right to deal with the property in the deceased's estate to the Administrator(s) named in the Grant. It may also recite the fact that certain other individuals with prior rights to seek a grant are either unable or unwilling to take out a Grant. This would be included to prove that the Administrators named in the Grant were entitled to seek it notwithstanding that there are other people on higher rungs of the hierarchy who have not sought a Grant.
An understanding of this needs then to be brought to bear when reading the Probate calendars (strictly, the Calendars of Grants of Probate and Letters of Administration) in order to ascertain what documents are there, and whether they are likely to be useful to your research. If you know the order in which people are entitled to seek a Grant of Letters of Administration, and you find that the person who you expected to take out the Grant is not in fact the person who did, then there will be a reason for this which may be recited in the Grant, or which you may need to investigate separately.
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Hi just received a copy of a grant of administration for my ancestor in 1858
there was no will, so aside from naming the deceased, his mother, when and where she died, and where he was living and what he was doing it adds nothing new.
is there any way to find how he established his connection to the deceased lady to have this granted to him, as we have not found any baptism for him.
He was executor along with his mother to his father's will in 1835.
Looks like another brick wall
Thanks Colin
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There might be extra information if there's an entry in the Death Duty Registers.
You can search for an entry in the Index to the Registers on FindMyPast
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Thanks mate
Here's hoping that they contain more than was online in the admins register
regards Colin
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Well, the Index almost certainly won't but if you find an entry let me know and I'll look it up at Kew
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Thanks for all the helpful advice. ;)