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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: grandarog on Wednesday 21 January 15 17:38 GMT (UK)
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It has recently been drawn to my attention that a cousin of my wifes grandfather was awarded the Victoria Cross for action in 1914.
He was 27276 Stewart Ernest Fagg. Royal Garrison Artillery. Served from 1907 to 1919.
As the sole survivor of 25 men, due to be shot at dawn the next day. They all escaped from a German stockade. He then took charge and recaptured their own guns and manned them. Despite sustaining the losses of all the others attacked the German positions for 16 days before being rescued by a cavalry advance.
There is a very graphic account of why he was awarded the VC on the link below.
Here is the link:- http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/militaryhospitals.html
Scroll down to the Christmas party picture the story is directly below.
Now comes my anomaly. I can find absolutely no record of him winning the VC on any of the holder sites etc.
Why would this be.
Thanks for any advice or comments . Roger
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Have you seen his medal record at The national Archives Kew. You will find it by inserting as much information as possible, You can buy a copy I think for around £3.
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Heres his medal card - very curious !
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His Army records are on FindMyPast - would it show on them
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Thanks for your suggestions .That is the anomaly.I have his Medal card and have searched all through his records but no mention that tallies with things in the account given in the article.
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What does the detail on the medal card i.e. "clasp and Roses" refer to? Could that be some detail about the VC and its ribbon and clasp etc.? Though it seems unlikely with the highest gallantry award of all I do wonder if a simple administrative error has arisen? i know from when I dealt with personnel how easy it was to write information on the wrong record, or to accidentally miss a record? Do you know the location of the medal?
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Gunner Fagg in the newspaper article is "a giant of a man, tall and broad, with a massive chest and shoulders. .... 'Yes, I am just over six feet.' "
According to the service papers for Stewart E Fagg, on enlistment he was 5'9 3/4", with an expanded chest of 35".
So, are we talking about two different peeps?
STG
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It's a strange one this. The V.C. lists don't mention him. The only mention that I can find re the V.C. is from newspaper stories. It is also stated from a news paper that he was awarded a D.C.M. as well. I do love a mystery.
Regards
Malky
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Gunner Fagg in the newspaper article is "a giant of a man, tall and broad, with a massive chest and shoulders. .... 'Yes, I am just over six feet.' "
According to the service papers for Stewart E Fagg, on enlistment he was 5'9 3/4", with an expanded chest of 35".
So, are we talking about two different peeps?
STG
His date of birth could be very relevant. If he enlisted at 16 (say) could easily have grown 2 1/2 inches in 5 years or so.
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It was 1907 and he was said to be 18yrs 9mths old ... b. Hastow, Sittingbourne, Kent.
STG
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He ws actually 18 when he enlisted Baptised at Iwade Kent 3 Feb 1889 . All the brothers were big lads .Humping guns about in the RGA could certainly have bulked him up a couple of inches.Only one of that name on army records.so am pretty sure same chap. Just beginning to wonder if it was all a bit of Bulls**t at the time to wind up the reporter. I wonder if in fact he was nominated but was never actually awarded.
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In the "wounded" and "effects of wounds" sections on another page, there is absolutely nothing written.
Jus' sayin'
STG
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It's strange, the Liverpool Daily Post carried the story, Dec 31st 1914, The Kent Advertiser carried the story circa early 1915, The Daily Colonist in Victoria, B.C. Canada carried it on the 4th July 1915, so it did the rounds.
Did anyone actually check?
Regards
Malky
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His service papers say, under "medals decorations and annuities" that he got the "1914 Star & Clasp " and the "BW & V Medal".
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Thanks again for all your inputs. Flattybasher9,Were the reports in the other newspapers just taken from the Liverpool one or actually original . As you pointed out, did anyone actually check the facts at the time.I am know beginning to wonder even more if it was all a gungho propaganda exercise. Our 3 known local VC,s are well recorded and remembered in the area .It seems very strange, there seems to be nothing about Stewart anywhere, other than a brief note in the local paper at the time ,which was taken from the Liverpool article by the way is written.They were a well known local family as they were so large .His mother bore 21 children.
Unfortunately I cant access trench records for the time or any RGA archives or find any citation in the London Gazette that,s why I am hoping some of you far more experienced researchers on here can sort out the mystery. Roger.
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What does the detail on the medal card i.e. "clasp and Roses" refer to? Could that be some detail about the VC and its ribbon and clasp etc.?
The Long Long trail says this
" Clasp to the 1914 Star
A bar clasp inscribed "5 Aug. to 22 Nov. 1914" was given to all those who qualified for the 1914 Star and who served under fire. Since the same ribbon is used with the 1914-15 Star, holders of the 1914 Star were permitted to wear a small silver rosette on their ribbon when the decoration itself is not worn. On the medal index cards this is usually noted as the "Clasp and Roses" or "C&R" .It was necessary to apply for the issue of the clasp. "
I did try looking for a War Diary for the Royal Garrison Artillery on The National Archives site but I came up blank. You have to try different search terms.
On the medal and Award Roll it only gives the application for the Clasp and Roses.
He has the whole page to himself and it is headed 8th Divisional Ammunition Column RGA
Reference to the Clasp and Roses gives a date 14 April1921 = so the date he applied for the C and R? This one comes up using his first initial and surname.
There is a separate entry on the Medal and Award Roll for the Victory and British medals but nothing there you don't already know. This one comes up using his first full name and surname
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If and a big if He was actually awarded the VC he certainly deserved it if the press report is true.
He certainly achieved a lot in the 52 days recorded spent in France between 5/11/1914 and 27/12/1914. According to his story ,during that time he was wounded and stayed at his post for 16 days which resulted in the VC. He was then Casevaced to Harwich Uk and again returned to France (according to press report) Later shot in the foot and again Casevaced to Uk where he gave the interview to the Liverpool Daily Post in Alderhay Hospital ,which was published on 31/12 1914.
There is nothing on his service record to support this except that he was in France for the 52 days. No mention of any wounds or actions etc.
The fact it is recorded in his records he had trouble with the big toe on his left foot later in the war and had the toe nail removed and there are remarks that the foot was still stiff ,give some credence that he may well have been shot years earlier as alleged. Any one else found anything to corraborate the story as truth yet please. It looks like we may have a nasty skeleton in the family cupboard here! :-[
Thanks for all your help Roger.
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"Flattybasher9,Were the reports in the other newspapers just taken from the Liverpool one or actually original"
They seemingly were. The Canadian one is worth a read. It goes into the detail that he was shot 7 times.
"had been wounded •seven times- In the right side, but only one of the wounds was serious.
• Thaf is how Gunner Fagg won the V.C, and won It grandly"
I also note that the papers spell his forename "Stuart".
On the link, scroll down to "16"
Headder :- THE DAILY COLONIST, VI CTORIA, B.C., SUXDAV, JULY 4. 1915. .»
It's about two thirds down the page. It's worth a read.
https://archive.org/stream/dailycolonist57y177uvic/dailycolonist57y177uvic_djvu.txt
Was this just morale boosting propoganda, allowed by the powers that be ??
I am beginning to think that perhaps, it was.
Regards
Malky
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Just to check you have the right man. I found the following 2 quotes:
Gunner Stuart FAGG of the Royal Field Artillery, who was recently awarded the Victoria Cross is one of three sons of the late Mr Henry FAGG and Mrs FAGG of Thornton Farm, Eastry, who are serving their country in the present war. Brother of Mrs Albert BOURNE of Kearsney.
FAGG STUART %% VC? EASTRY ONE OF 7 SONS(ONE OF 21 CHILDREN)BORN FUNTON IWADE MOTHER LIVES AT EASTRY.
So obviously some confusion? ;D
Another thought?
If he served for 52 days, November and December 1914, would a Victoria CRoss have been awarded before 31st December 1914?
The Military Authorities are not noted for speed of action?! ;D ::)
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KGarrard Thanks i have those quotes .Definitely my Grandfathers cousin .Have had all the details of his family and whereabouts etc in our family tree.I did wonder if he had been nominated not awarded and the assumption was he would get it. A little snippet in the 100 years ago section of out local paper mentioned him being feted for winning the VC. as this is a remarkable achievement I was surprised we had not heard of it in the family. Consequent investigation by myself has led to this post.
As Flattybasher9 says and concurs my thoughts this may well have been either a windup by the gunners in hospital to the reporter or the reporter made the whole thing up as a propaganda morale booster. It certainly received a lot of coverage in other papers all seemingly stemming from his story.
Thanks for the link Malky.
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All VC's awarded are mentioned in The London Gazette.
Just looking at an example, it would appear that it took at least 2 months for the paperwork to go through?
(Actions in September, Award end of November)
So, I agree, it looks like propaganda or misinformation?
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Thinking further about it, if the forename "Stuart" was used instead of "Stewart", if anyone had queried it, Stewart could have said it was another Mr Fagg, and not him, leading the questioner to look elsewhere.
Regards
Malky
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Have you read the service records for this man? Service number 27276 RGA. 29 October 1917 he was awaiting trial for conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline. He was given 12 months imprisonment with hard labour. Reduced to the rank of gunner and unexpired portion of his sentence was remitted to date of embarkation 1 Jan 1918.
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Crisane i did wonder if that Court Martial and Verdict was reason enough to have expunged the award and deleted all references to it on records.
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Modified
It is reported, that on orders of King George V, "The power to cancel and restore awards is still included in the Victoria Cross warrant but none has been forfeited since 1908".
So it looks like that the story may have caught up with him.
Regards
Malky
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The whole story doesn't ring true. Why would the Germans plan to shoot 25 at dawn? How did they move the guns ( and ammunition)? Were the horses standing there patiently?
Imber
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Can't find any mention in the London Gazette of "Victoria Cross" and "Fagg" in the same article?! :-\
Which I think goes to prove that it wasn't awarded - and therefore couldn't be cancelled?
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The whole story doesn't ring true. Why would the Germans plan to shoot 25 at dawn? How did they move the guns ( and ammunition)? Were the horses standing there patiently?
Imber
That doesn't sound at all true. Nor does the fact that the Germans relieved them of all their weapons "except their jack knives" Why would they tell them they were to be shot at dawn but leave them with their knives?
I do wonder if the court martial was because the reports of his fantasy had come to light.
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There were only 8 forfietures, and he was not one of them.
Regards
Malky
Never mind, it's been a good research exercise.
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Looks more and more as if my theory of a giant Porkie Pie has been correct all along.
The addition of the award of the DIstinguished Conduct Medal at a later date reported in the Canadian Paper sugests press hype.
Does anyone have access to Court Martial transcripts of the time as that would probably solve the mystery.
If the story is fact not fiction, it must have been recorded in trench diaries at the time . I am sure,no way would a long period of shelling and a final Cavalry advance not be recorded.
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On Wikipedia for the Canadian Victoria Cross it says (heading Criteria) " and, unlike its British counterpart, may be revoked.[14] The ref 14 says the original source is dated 2008
Also Wikipedia
Victoria Cross forfeitures
"The original Royal Warrant involved an expulsion clause that allowed for a recipient's name to be erased from the official register in certain wholly discreditable circumstances and his pension cancelled.[64] King George V felt very strongly that the decoration should never be forfeited and in a letter from his Private Secretary, Lord Stamfordham, on 26 July 1920, his views are forcibly expressed:
The King feels so strongly that, no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his VC on the scaffold.[29]
The power to cancel and restore awards is still included in the Victoria Cross warrant but none has been forfeited since 1908.[29] reference 29 is "Posthumous VCs". National Army Museum. Retrieved 16 June 2007
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a giant Porkie Pie
Agreed. I think he may have been a teller of tall tales.
Oddly, the army file doesn't mention his hospitalisation in December 1914. When he was in Netley in February 1915 (NYD - not yet diagnosed - and flat foot) the first medical comment is "no obvious sign of mental derangement".
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ShaunJ ,Thanks for that input .can i ask where the info came from.
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.can i ask where the info came from.
It's on his army file which is viewable on both FindMyPast and Ancestry
FindMyPast link : http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007273992%2f00404&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7273992%2f27%2f389 (and see previous image)
On Ancestry it is images 1533 and 1534
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It looks like that the comment "no obvious sign of mental derangement" may relate to the V.C. story having caught up with him.
Regards
Malky
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Thanks ShaunJ I had that .I hadn't worked out that that the squiggle in the left column was Netley.
It would be wonderful if anybody could check the District Court Martial Transcripts for 18 December 1917 when he was sentenced to demotion and one years hard labour ,commuted to Detention and later repealed ,so he could be sent back to the front in France.
As far as I can work out the transcript should be in WO 86 at Kew.They are not on line.
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Just as interest .His brother Arthur Alfred Fagg mentioned in the Canadian Newspaper article emigrated to Canada via the USA in 1914. He had previously been a Stoker in the Royal Navy for years rising to Petty Officer. I have added a bit of the article below.
Quote:-
"The war has brought forth many
stories, of heroism of one kind or an-
other, but It la doubtful If any of those
who have won even the coveted Victoria
Cross have more richly earned their
honour than Gunner Stuart Fagg', of the
Royal Garrlson Artillery, whose brother,
Mr. Arthur Alfred Fagg. is an employee of 8lr
John Jackboii. Mil.St Victoria. Gunner
Fagg is the aon of Mr and Mrs Henry Fagg of
Thornton Farm. Eastry. Kent.
He la one of seven membera of his
family who are aervlng with the coloura.
S1nce earning the V.C., Gunner Fagg haa
again been wounded and haa now been
awarded the Distinguished Conduct
Medal, surely a double distinction which
will fall to few, even of the bravest."
Source:- THE DAILY COLONIST, VI CTORIA, B.C., SUNDAY, JULY 4. 1915
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He does appear on a list of wounded dated 6th January 1915 (27276 Gunner L E Fagg according to the Aberdeen Journal of 23 February 1915).
We know from his army file that he was on home service in UK from 27 December 1914 to 13 September 1915 so this wound was presumably sustained in December 1914.
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Would a member of an Ammunition Column be involved with actually serving the guns? My understanding is that they brought ammo to the gun positions, but normally would be some way behind the guns.
A
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Have you considered contacting the Royal Artillery Museum in Woolwich? If they are anything at all like the Staffordshire Regiment Museum, who I have consulted on a number of occasions, then they will have staff who have a mine of information.
Just a thought :)
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Ainsley...At the time of his Alleged VC he was a fully fledged certified Cpl Bombardia Gunner(He qualified as First Class genner some years previous . I think he was relegated to ammoe carrying when hereturned to the front after his supposed 7 wounds were treated at Harwich. Roger
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Fair enough.
A
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We all have dodgy ancestors or skeletons in the cupboard .In modern jargon his story certainly went viral . An alleged picture of him appeared in a Canadian Newspaper. I dont suppose for a minute it is him .Just some poor soldier dragged into the journalistic licence . As rthe story went from paper to paper it got more and more added even on this one another award of the DCM for more supposed brave heroics .
Source :- The Daily Colonial 04-Jul-1915
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I've no doubt that it is his photo - presumably supplied by brother Arthur
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I have considered that as a possibility ,unfortunately as I don,t have a photo of him to compare we will never know if it is Stewart or not.
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Ernest Fagg VC is a distant cousin I have him recorded on my family tree but have only just found out he was awarded the VC.
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have only just found out he was awarded the VC.
But we don't believe he was awarded the VC. That seems to be just a story that he gave to a reporter.
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He isn't on the definitive list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victoria_Cross_recipients_%28A%E2%80%93F%29
And, if you read this whole thread, you will see that we think he "embellished" a story?!
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Thank you ShaunJ I have not used this site for a long time and have now read all the comments. My local paper The Sittingbourne News Extra ran an article this week which mentioned him being awarded the VC prior to that I had no idea of any mention of a VC while researching the Fagg side of my family history.
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I will contact the news paper to find out where they got the information from regarding Stuart Fagg.
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Thank you ShaunJ I have not used this site for a long time and have now read all the comments. My local paper The Sittingbourne News Extra ran an article this week which mentioned him being awarded the VC prior to that I had no idea of any mention of a VC while researching the Fagg side of my family history.
Actually, NOT being awarded the VC, and having his fantasy escape and go much further than he probably ever intended, and then possibly being court martialled for it is a much more interesting story. I've thoroughly enjoyed following this thread.
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You are right Mike it makes good reading and family history more exciting.
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Bogey man :) ,I have been in touch with Christine at SNE Like all the other papers the article was from the original in the Liverpool paper . Like your branch of the family our lot had no idea . i think it was probable hushed up and not spoken of as the skeleton in the cupboard after he was found out.Roger
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Thank you I will put this one back in the file it was only after reading the article in the paper that made me bring him out as I had never heard of him receiving a VC. Its been interesting.
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Does anyone know where Stewart Ernest Fagg is buried.
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It is reported that he died in Sittingbourne, Kent during the first quarter, in 1968, aged 81.
Regards
Malky
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It is reported that he died in Sittingbourne, Kent during the first quarter, in 1968, aged 81.
Regards
Malky
So I'd try the local paper for a death notice and see if that gives any clues.
STG
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Thank you Malky. I went to our local Council and checked the burial records for Sittingbourne Cemetery he is not buried there. Our Library re-open's today as it has been closed since before Christmas for repairs. I will look through the old newspapers to see if there is any information regarding Stewart, as his story is still much on going.
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I went to our local Council and checked the burial records for Sittingbourne Cemetery he is not buried there.
Gee telling porkies even in death ;D
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Just because the death is registered in Sittingbourne doe's not mean that he was buried there.
Maybe he was buried in Selling, he seems to have lived there at one time.
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. http://www.kentfallen.com/PDF%20reports/SELLING.pdf
and; http://twgpp.org/information.php?id=2314570
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It is reported that he died in Sittingbourne, Kent during the first quarter, in 1968, aged 81.
Regards
Malky
That just says he died in the Sittingbourne Registration District!
See here for a list of the 39 parishes in that district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/sittingbourne.html
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See here for a list of the 39 parishes in that district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/sittingbourne.html
As I said earlier, Selling is in that district so I would check there first.
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Thank you youngtug I will.
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Hi there
Stewart Fagg was my great uncle. My Gfather was Walter Edward Fagg no 13 out of 16. Stewart was no 15. I too would love to know the true story - his heroic deed was also reported in the Kent Advertiser Sat Jan 30 1915 with his photo.
If you have any more family details, not just him I would love to share them and anything I have.
I have met descendants of Frank Datson Fagg no 16.
my email address is (*)
Thank you, Frances Cadman nee fagg
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Hello Frances
Stewart Ernest Fagg was a second cousin of my great grandfather.I would love further information.
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Hi Roger I would love to hear more about this story and any Fagg genealogy in the same line. Stewart is my great uncle. I am researching from New Zealand. Fran Cadman
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Stewart is recorded ( without his V.C. but with a medal index card) at the Lives of the First World War website.
All the chat that has developed would make a marvelous addition as he was not remembered until today! Can I encourage all those who have chimed in to remember him, you only need to sign in to make contribution. I have started the ball rolling.
Here's the link...
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/1184731
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Stewart Ernest Fagg is remembered and recorded he is a distant cousin of mine. He was baptized 3-2-1889 Iwade, Kent. He married In 1915 Woolwich to Dorothy Ivy Bishop born 1891 Faversham, Kent. They had three sons Stuart Victor Fagg born 1919 Lewisham died 1983 Bournmouth, Dorset. John Richard Fagg born 1921 Lewisham, died 8-6-1944 France. Wilfred Arthur Fagg born 20-9-1924 Lewisham, died 2001 Bath. Steward Ernest Fagg died 1968 Sittingbourne, Kent his wife Dorothy Ivy Fagg died 1973 Sittingbourne, Kent. The burial records for Sittingbourne Cemetery which I have researched have no record of him or his wife being buried here in Sittingbourne.
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His/her son is on the "Selling" war memorial. There is a chance that Stewart and Ivy is at Selling also.
Regards
Malky
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Yes thank you I have been meaning to get off the Train at Selling and go and have a look around. I think I need to contact Faversham Library and go through the burial records there.
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I have been following this thread about this man. Sadly the records on WIKI are not accurate, and I found it difficult to correct the errors listed about Ernest Sykes VC. I have checked the three volume Methuen, complete History of the VC and GC published in 2013, and can find no reference to his surname. In terms of annotating his medal card, in the case of Ernest Sykes, the letters VC were added in big bold lettering to the front card.
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Interestingly :-
Register of leavers from the Metropolitan Police, as follows :-
Stewart Ernest Fagg, warrant number 108862. Joined on 26 Jan 1920, and left on 19 April 1920. Last posted to R Division as a PC.
From the National Archives.
Regards
Malky
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Regarding struggling to find a citation in the London Gazette, I sent an email to the Gazette to say I found their website difficult to use, and gave the name of the person I was searching for. I received an email reply with the direct link to the named person. Worth a try.
Tra La La
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So what information was contained in the link?
Regards
Malky
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Malky.
Very interesting information regarding Stewart Ernest Fagg joining the Metropolitan Police.
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For less than 4 months or so. I wonder why??
Regards
Malky
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Malky
I had no idea he joined the Metropolitan Police Force I can now try and find out why he left after such a short time.
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Do I take it the most of you correspondents are relatives or related to a
relative of Stewart Ernest Fagg?
I would love to add more "extended" names to my research. I also plan to be in Kent in July staying
near Sittingbourne.
Francescad
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I woke up at midnight and read every reply. What I cannot work out is why the Germans would want to shoot him and his fellow soldiers. There seems to be no reason and they hopefully should have been treated as regular POW's. Had they been captured after escaping and manning their guns would have been another story!
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Do I take it the most of you correspondents are relatives or related to a
relative of Stewart Ernest Fagg?
I would love to add more "extended" names to my research. I also plan to be in Kent in July staying
near Sittingbourne.
Francescad
I think only 1 or 2 of us are related?
The rest of us just like to help with research! That's how RootsChat works ;D
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Speaking for myself much less than one percent of all my replies to RootsChat are relatives of mine.
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Clasp and roses explanaion
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=680833.0
"Added to the 1914 Star:
Clasp
5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
Often referred to as Clasp and Roses. Instituted in 1919 (Army Order Number 361 published 16 October 1919) and awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery during the above period.[5] When the ribbon bar was worn alone, recipients of the clasp to the medal wore a small silver rosette on the ribbon bar.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Star"
So he most certainly was in danger between these dates 5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
*Right on his medal card it says 5/11/14 as his entry date into his first theatre of war.
"The clasp turns the 1914 Star into a ‘Mons Star’. Soldiers operating in the rear received the 1914 Star without the clasp and roses. The next of kin of men who had died did not receive the roses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mons
It is a gallantry award in its own way "awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery", sounds like a V.C if your were a wet behind the ears reporter working because you were to young to be sent to fight. I don't think he ever qualified for a V.C. We all know V.C.s are given for 'bravery under fire'. Perhaps there was no difference thought of in the first four months of WW1 by the public, even if the military awarded V.Cs in this battle to other celebrated men!
I doubt it was a story made up by Gunner S.E.Fagg, the man is a hero. They marched for miles in retreat under fire, wounded and ordered to return to their enforcement lines nearer Paris. They were also vastly out numbered by the German Army.
The Battle of Mons helped save Paris from invasion in WW1 and was one of Britains first battles. At the time of the newspaper article it would have been big news.
A video account of the battle of Mons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGtfUwW3ZFI
This man did 12 years service, that is a long time.
Another comment none of the records viewed on the Kent History Forum show his wounds within the dates of the battle of Mons but that doesn't mean he was not wounded at that battle. People seem to think army record keeping is infaliable! I wonder if there are undiscovered hospital records in Britain to be found yet.
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Perhaps a little off topic, but it is very difficult to alter incorrect information added by others to the various Wiki pages. The information for Ernest SYKES VC contained a number of errors, including the date of his heroic deeds which SHOULD read Easter Monday the 9th of April 1917, and his date of birth which SHOULD read the 14th of April 1885. The errors continue to be printed in new (2016) books, and feature on Ancestry, Find My Past and the VC typed list on the website of The National Archives. I am encouraged that the Governments VC Pavement project does accept that his heroic deeds DID happen on the 9th, not the 19th of April 1917. Sadly that is only one arm of the government. Just for the record, and according to the war diaries, the battalion was away from the front on the 19th of April 1917. So 99 years on, there is no common will to get this right. He was aware of the error when he gave press interviews to the Huddersfield Examiner and also to the Manchester Evening News, hence he used the phrase "it was Easter Monday, the 9th of April, and it was snowing ....". any suggestions on how to get through to Ancestry/FindMyPast/TNA would be welcomed.
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I can understand what you are saying Tra La La but maybe Ernest SYKES VC needs his own topic as 'his heroic deeds DID happen on the 9th, not the 19th of April 1917' have nothing to do with Stewart Fagg and The Battle of Mons.
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Another question, have you looked at Stewart Ernest Fagg in the 1911 census for England?
Could he have recievd a foreign VC? One that could be stripped?
The IGI says he was in Gibralta
He was a professional soldier in the RGA?
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Jut curious, but what is "a foreign VC"?
Regards
Malky
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Point taken. I was taking the opportunity to tap into those with an interest in holders of the VC. I did check my 2013 published Methuen three volume, and Fagg and its variations was not listed.
Tra La La
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Stewart Ernest Fagg, a bricklayer,enlisted at Dover into the Royal Artillery (Royal Garrison Artillery) on the 26th September 1907. His enlistment to September 1908 was in the Uk then he served four years in Gibraltar. A very interesting account of Stewart Ernest Fagg, can be found in Bygone Kent Volume 36 No 3
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There was also a lot of false claims regarding been awarded the VC during the First World War. They were usually part of a scam in which they might get better treated to free board and lodgings or financial gain.
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Good evening,
I have been following this with interest. I have just reread the extract from the Mersey Post.
It would seem that not only his VC is an embellishment but the whole story of rescuing the guns as well.
He was a member of the Garrison artillery, they used somewhat larger guns than say the RHA. So how did they get away with them.
If towed by motor vehicles where did they get them and how were they not detected making such a racket.
If pulled by horses where did they find them, how did they harness and hitch up quite a considerable number without being detected. Then move out with quite a convoy again without a sound apparently because they were again not detected.
I hate being a pessimist but i'm afraid I don't believe a bit of it. Has anyone seen his medical record if it survives because it sounds to me like he suffered delusions probably due to shell shock or worse.
John915
PS, RGA were not exactly on the front line either so the Germans who captured them first made their way through the trenches. Then fought for and took the guns then took them back to their position via the front line trenches full of our troops?????
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Just to correct the incorrect detail on Stuarts Records about his size.This a quote from an interview with one of his sisters by a local Sheppey newspaper following the start of the hoax VC story.
Quote"
Mrs Charles Love, of New Hook Farm, is one of the sisters and it was from her lips that a “Guardian” representative gathered a few particulars of her heroic brother one morning this week on the farm. “Well, it is true then,” Mrs Love said, when shown the story here appended. “I had seen one or two references in the papers to my brother Stuart or “Toots” as we call him. He is a brother I have not heard much of lately as he has been abroad on foreign service in Gibraltar, Ireland and elsewhere. As a boy ‘Toots’, as he will be remembered in Eastchurch, was exceptionally big and strong, all his clothes had to be specially made for him. Mr Ellum, our village schoolmaster, took a great interest in him, and although he was regarded as a bit slow at lessons, Mr Ellum said he would get on in life and be a credit to the family. He came here with us on the farm for a time before going to join the Army.
“Yes Toots was born at Iwade, as most of the family were,” Mrs Love said in answer to my question as to whether Sheppey could claim him for one of her hero sons, but he was brought up at Eastchurch, where his father kept the Castle Hotel for over fifteen years. The family really belongs to Sheppey as we were here before taking the farm at Iwade.
Mrs Love was, of course, greatly pleased to get our confirmation of the news of her heroic brothers deeds, and in the course of the interview mentioned that Stuart is one of five of her brothers serving in the Kings Forces, two being in the Royal Dragoons and another two in the Royal Navy. The good farmers wife spoke with pride at being one of a large family, and mentioned that her husband, Mr Chas Love, who for once was not out with the hounds coursing, as he was busy on the farm with the threshers, also belongs to one of the biggest families in Sheppey. Mr and Mrs Love, of Capel Hill, having had a family of fifteen, most of whom are still living.
Hope this clears up a few doubts.
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Clasp and roses explanaion
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=680833.0
"Added to the 1914 Star:
Clasp
5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
Often referred to as Clasp and Roses. Instituted in 1919 (Army Order Number 361 published 16 October 1919) and awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery during the above period.[5] When the ribbon bar was worn alone, recipients of the clasp to the medal wore a small silver rosette on the ribbon bar.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Star"
So he most certainly was in danger between these dates 5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
*Right on his medal card it says 5/11/14 as his entry date into his first theatre of war.
"The clasp turns the 1914 Star into a ‘Mons Star’. Soldiers operating in the rear received the 1914 Star without the clasp and roses. The next of kin of men who had died did not receive the roses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mons
It is a gallantry award in its own way "awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery", sounds like a V.C if your were a wet behind the ears reporter working because you were to young to be sent to fight. I don't think he ever qualified for a V.C. We all know V.C.s are given for 'bravery under fire'. Perhaps there was no difference thought of in the first four months of WW1 by the public, even if the military awarded V.Cs in this battle to other celebrated men!
I doubt it was a story made up by Gunner S.E.Fagg, the man is a hero. They marched for miles in retreat under fire, wounded and ordered to return to their enforcement lines nearer Paris. They were also vastly out numbered by the German Army.
The Battle of Mons helped save Paris from invasion in WW1 and was one of Britains first battles. At the time of the newspaper article it would have been big news.
A video account of the battle of Mons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGtfUwW3ZFI
This man did 12 years service, that is a long time.
Another comment none of the records viewed on the Kent History Forum show his wounds within the dates of the battle of Mons but that doesn't mean he was not wounded at that battle. People seem to think army record keeping is infaliable! I wonder if there are undiscovered hospital records in Britain to be found yet.
His medal card shows his entry to theatre to be 5 November 1914 and so he could not have been at Mons or even taken part in the subsequent retreat.
Imber
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Contributors to the site "Great War Forum" do not seem to feel that he won the VC.
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/223667-cpl-gunner-stewart-fagg-court-martial/
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If I remember correctly the inscription on the Victoria Cross reads "For valor" not for gallantry. If it was an inexperienced reporter he must have been very inexperienced.
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Just to clear any Confusion for people who have not read through all the pages about Stuart. He did not win the VC .He kept up the pretense until found out and was discredited by his Village and Relations soon after the article appeared in the national and local paper. He was also castigated and virtually condemned by the Village Parson who had organised a party in his honour when he returned from hospital.
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Was there a Charlie (Charles) Fagg related to these Faggs from Faversham? I can't think of his wife's name. They were good friends of my mum and dad, he was from 20 School Road, Faversham. Eric Keem
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Dont have a Charles in the tree.However there are a couple of Frederick Charles one Bn 1911 and one 188something.Could have been known as Charles.