RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: franh1946 on Tuesday 13 January 15 07:06 GMT (UK)
-
I can't find a previous thread on this particular petition; so forgive me if it's been discussed. I saw it on FreeREG and was surprised to note that there were only 9000 signatures. I was unable to sign but maybe someone here might be interested. Closes 25th March.
"We ask that historic birth marriage & death registers be open to public inspection at county record offices or the National Archives"
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779
-
I can't find a previous thread on this particular petition; so forgive me if it's been discussed. I saw it on FreeREG and was surprised to note that there were only 9000 signatures. I was unable to sign but maybe someone here might be interested. Closes 25th March.
"We ask that historic birth marriage & death registers be open to public inspection at county record offices or the National Archives"
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62779
Thanks for mention the petition but more important than the petition is the campaign.
http://anguline.co.uk/ohrn.html
Everyone no matter where they live in the world can make a difference by emailing a member of the House of Lords (details on the website).
Currently Baroness Scott of Needham Market is attempting to have changes made. Letters and emails to her fellow Lords and indeed to members of the House of Commons will add weight to her attempt and will cause other Lords and members of the Commons to vote in favour of her amendments.
She moved an amendment to the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 in November last year and is currently in talks with interested parties regarding moving this forward.
Forum members in the UK in addition to writing or emailing to members of the House of Lords can also write or email to their Member of Parliament (no matter what party their MP belongs to). Please note due to the filtering system for emails in the House of Lords any identical messages sent to more than six Members of the House of Lords will be deleted.
There is a good chance of success as people in power are interested, we have to show them we the public support this attempt.
If enough of us do that the system will change
Cheers
Guy
-
This subject has indeed cropped up before!
See::
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=681871.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=708930.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=700405.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686389.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=681413.
-
Well, that it good to know! I searched "petition" and got lots of hits but nothing pertinent to this particular one. Should have narrowed (or broadened)my parameters. Thanks, Fran
-
Initial success Deregulation of BMD records passed in the Lords
www.rootschat.com/links/01ex2/
Scroll down to amendment 33a
There has been some movement towards gaining access to BMD records without having to purchase certificates.
The House of Lords passed an Deregulation Bill on the 05/02/2015 which will allow the Registrar General to provide copies on entries of BMDs without the need to purchase certificates.
The deregulation will also allow the records to be made available in a digital form rather than having to wait for paper copies to be posted out.
This is only the first stage in the process but is a very welcome first stage
Cheers
Guy
-
Update on the Deregulation Bill.
The House of Commons today agreed with the House of Lords amendments to allow cheaper and quicker access to BMD records.
Also mentioned in the Commons summing up of the amendments
Registers to be regarded as Historic
Births 100 years
Marriages 75 years
Deaths 50 years
This does not mean the bill has passed into law just yet, there are some other parts of the Bill that have yet to be agreed.
The good news is the proposals about changing the law on access to Birth, Marriage and Death records has been now agreed by both Houses of Parliament.
There is still some way to go however before we can obtain such records so the pressure must be kept up.
Cheers
Guy
-
The Deregulation Bill (the Bill that allows the GRO to supply non certified copies of entries in BMD registers) has passed through all stages of the House of Commons and the House of Lords and is now waiting for Royal Assent.
Royal Assent should be announced in Parliament, for this Bill, on Tuesday 25th of March, along with Royal Assent to all the other Bills passed by Parliament in this session that have not yet received Royal Assent, prior to Prorogation.
Therefore from midnight on the 25th March it will be legal for the GRO to supply non certified copies of entries in Birth, Marriage and Death registers.
How long will it actually take before the GRO start supplying such copies?
The fact that within a few days the above Bill will be law does not mean the GRO will supply non certified copies of entries of registers as required by the new legislation.
Presure must now turn from MPs and Lords to the Registrar General, Paul Pugh and the GRO.
The Campaign to Open Historic Registers has not ended because one battle has been won, we must carry on putting presure on those in authority until they comply with the new law and the intentions of the legislators 179 years ago who intended that the public have a right to receive copies of enters of registers.
It should be noted that when registration started in 1837 the public had a right to view the registers held at the GRO and this right was not withdrawn until 1898 the then Registrar General took it upon himself to close the records held at the GRO even though there was no change in the law to allow for such unilateral action.
This unilateral action has now been in part reversed by the Deregulation Bill which now allows the public to be supplied with non certified copies of the registers once again.
Cheers
Guy
-
Great news Guy, but is that next year? Today is Tueday 24th March
Steve
-
Great news Guy, but is that next year? Today is Tueday 24th March
Steve
No this year 2015.
Prorogation is part of the procedure that ends parliament before a General Election (which takes place this May). All the Bills which have been passed by both the Lords and the Commons and have not already been given Royal Assent receive Royal Assent on that day.
If there is no timescale set out in the legislation the legislation comes into force at midnight on the day it receives Royal Assent.
The Deregulation Bill does not specify when it becomes law therefore it becomes law at midnight on the 25th March.
This in effect means that from the opening of business on Thursday the 26th March 2015 the public have the right to apply for and receive non certified copies of entries of Births, Marriages and Deaths held by the GRO (note this does not apply to Local Registrar's or to Superintendent Registrar's offices only to the GRO).
Registrars General since at least the start of the 20th century have claimed to have been working towards such access and supply of non certified copies of entries.
I fear that such claims were only made to pacify those who questioned why they were not supplying such copies earlier.
They now (from midnight 25th March 2015) have no excuse not to supply non certified copies of entries in registers.
We will see just how prepared they are and just what their "working towards" has actually put in place.
So far they are answering request for information about such a service by -
"Can you email", or "Can you put your request into writing" and other similar time wasting tactics.
Cheers
Guy
-
It will be interesting to see what effect this bill has in real life.
Perhaps the GRO will simply say "yes, of course you can have a non certified copy. That will be £9.25 please!" which will in effect be no change at all!
Or am I missing something significant?
-
This is good news, but a note of caution. Reading the Deregulation Bill I don't think it grants direct access to the registers, nor does it create any immediate additional right to obtain information from them. For births and deaths it adds to the relevant acts (amongst other provisions):
...
(1) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of enabling the Registrar General-
(a) to carry out, on request, a search to find out whether the Registrar General's certified copies contain a particular entry;
(b) to provide, on request, a record of information contained in an entry in the Registrar General's certified copies, otherwise than in the form of a certified copy.
(2) The regulations may authorise or require the Registrar General to charge a fee of an amount specified in the regulations for carrying out a search or providing a record.
...
In other words, there is no immediate change at midnight. All that has become legal is for the Minister at some future point to publish some regulations increasing access. The bill doesn't stipulate that the Minister should do this - it merely becomes lawful for him or her to do so. If such regulations are made, that access will be in the form of a new search service for which there will be a charge, from which the results will be given in a form other than the traditional certificates.
For marriages and civil partnerships the bar is set slightly higher - it has to be the Secretary of State rather than the Minister who makes the regulations, the regulations have to be a statutory instrument, and they can only be prepared after consultation with the Registrar General.
Therefore whilst this is a step in the right direction it isn't necessarily going to be quick, and it won't be free (I do hope they don't make it £9.25!)
Richard.
-
Hi
I seem to recall that, in response to an FOI request, the GRO said that using plain paper would only be a few pence cheaper than the currently used certificate forms.
Email is another possibility but it wouldn't be any cheaper as a certificate is not created until the printing stage, a scan of the Register entry is printed on a pre-printed blank certificate, that certificate would then need to be scanned in order to email it.
A system similar to that in Scotland would be great but would cost many millions of pounds to set up.
Andy
-
This is good news, but a note of caution. Reading the Deregulation Bill I don't think it grants direct access to the registers, nor does it create any immediate additional right to obtain information from them. For births and deaths it adds to the relevant acts (amongst other provisions):
...
(1) The Minister may make regulations for the purpose of enabling the Registrar General-
(a) to carry out, on request, a search to find out whether the Registrar General's certified copies contain a particular entry;
(b) to provide, on request, a record of information contained in an entry in the Registrar General's certified copies, otherwise than in the form of a certified copy.
(2) The regulations may authorise or require the Registrar General to charge a fee of an amount specified in the regulations for carrying out a search or providing a record.
...
In other words, there is no immediate change at midnight. All that has become legal is for the Minister at some future point to publish some regulations increasing access. The bill doesn't stipulate that the Minister should do this - it merely becomes lawful for him or her to do so. If such regulations are made, that access will be in the form of a new search service for which there will be a charge, from which the results will be given in a form other than the traditional certificates.
For marriages and civil partnerships the bar is set slightly higher - it has to be the Secretary of State rather than the Minister who makes the regulations, the regulations have to be a statutory instrument, and they can only be prepared after consultation with the Registrar General.
Therefore whilst this is a step in the right direction it isn't necessarily going to be quick, and it won't be free (I do hope they don't make it £9.25!)
Richard.
I note you miss out
"(4) The Registrar General may charge such fees as appropriate in relation to making and delivering a copy of a record which is not a certified copy, but such a fee shall be no more than £3.00 per record."
In addition for the last 114 years Registrars General have been claiming the only obstacle blocking the way of their providning uncertified copies of BMD entries is the law does not specifically say they may provide uncertified copies.
From midnight on the 25th March changes in the law specifically state the Registrar Genral may supply such copies.
In other words the only block to uncertified copies has been removed.
I don't doubt the Registrar General and the GRO will now dream up other excuses, which is why we have not dropped the campaign to open historic registers.The focus has now changed from targetting MPs and Members of the House of Lords (which has been successful) to now targetting the Registrar General, the GRO and the Home Office Ministers.
As to your point it does not grant direct access to the registers, no one has claimed it does, but it does remove the only block to receiving uncertified copies of entries at a reasonable price.
As I stated earlier I foresee the initial price to be the same as a certificate but once the tendering process is conculded and the entries can be supplied dgitally the price could drop to the £3.00p level or even below that.
Cheers
Guy
-
That is even better news. I can't wait untill they are available for £3 or less!
-
What's the status on this amendment as of January 2016? I have heard little about it since its proposal.
I am looking for a lot of information that is only available from the certificates from the gro, it would save everyone immense amounts of money if we were able to get the information for less than the current 9.25
-
What's the status on this amendment as of January 2016? I have heard little about it since its proposal.
I am looking for a lot of information that is only available from the certificates from the gro, it would save everyone immense amounts of money if we were able to get the information for less than the current 9.25
£3 a pop would be heaven!!! Any updates on this Guy?
-
The latest information I have been given is that officials from the GRO are looking for ways to introduce change taking into account various considerations e.g. financial, legal, technical, impact on local authority budgets etc.
In other words they are doing what they claim to have been doing for the last 100 years.
In practice it seems they are delaying any chance of change for as long as possible.
Until there is a swell of public anger against these delaying tactics nothing will be done for the next 100 years.
There will be no change until people start writing and emailing the GRO asking why since the Registrars General since the start of the 20th century have been looking at ways to open the registers to the public is it taking so long to produce uncertified copies on register entries, this question should also be asked of every member of the House of Lords.
These two actions can be done by every person in the world not just people who live in the UK.
UK residents should email and mail their MP asking why the change is taking so long seeing as if we believe what we have been told over the last 100 years systems are in place to effect the change.
Until now they claimed the only block was legislation.
The legislation has been clarified yet still the GRO officials are making excuses.
When the Registrar General in 1974 decided to put an end to public searches in registers held by Superintendent Registrars they did that overnight.
If that can be done overnight with no regard to the consequences allowing the public to purchase uncertified copies of register entries can also be done quickly.
Royal Asset to the Deregulation Act was announced on 26 March 2015 in the House of Lords witnessed by members of the House of Commons, 9 months have passed and still we are no further forward.
Until the GRO and just as importantly Members of the House of Commons and of the House of Lords find their mailboxes filled with questions about this every day nothing will ever be done.
Cheers
Guy
-
Many years ago I was needing to look at the last census which was nit then available. I read somewhere that you could apply and be given only the minimum info. I wrote in and gave my reasons stating that I was his next of kin etc and was given enough information that helped me at the time. If they can do this then they should change the rules so we can look say after 70 yrs. 50 would be even better but that will never happen.
-
Many years ago I was needing to look at the last census which was nit then available. I read somewhere that you could apply and be given only the minimum info. I wrote in and gave my reasons stating that I was his next of kin etc and was given enough information that helped me at the time. If they can do this then they should change the rules so we can look say after 70 yrs. 50 would be even better but that will never happen.
Yes I totally agree but the powers that be put an end to that.
The PRO (as it was called then) even published a Records Information Leaflet (PRO Finding Aids No. 14) telling the researcher how to apply for the information. They were not frightened to demand a good fee for releasing the information either.
It should also be mentioned that in October 1998 the Advisory Council on Public Records made a statement with the following conclusion
"The Council considered the appropriateness of the closure period of 100 years which applied to the decennial census of population. It concluded that since undertakings of confidentiality had been given in the past by successive governments to people making returns, any reduction in the closure period for censuses up to that taken in 1991 would be a breach of confidence. It also felt, however, that a shorter period, of 80 years for instance, might be appropriate for future censuses."
As later census have contained even more assurances such as not being released for 100 years there is little chance of and census being released “early” and a very good chance of any more census ever being released as the 1921 Census Act as amended prohibits the release of any such information ever.
Cheers
Guy
-
I was very lucky then. it did cost me a loot as you say but at the time I was very grateful for that little bit of information.