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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: ClanCumming on Sunday 11 January 15 22:05 GMT (UK)
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Hi fellow searchers. I am looking for any information on the Cumming family from Loch Rannoch-Camghouran. James Cumming (my GG Grandfather) emigrated to Canada in about 1840 or so. The info we have says there is a possibility that his father was Alexander Cumming and his Mother was Flora Cameron. James worked withh the Gilmour Lumber Company in Canada. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks so much...
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Which part of Camghouran, Mid, West or East?
Do you have an approximate age/dob or age at death for James Cumming? Was he married when he emigrated, if so had he children?
Very difficult to find specific Camerons in "Cameron country" without more clues. :-\
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Hi Fifer1947, Thanks so much for your reply. James Cumming was about 30 when he emigrated to Canada and was not married and had no children at that time. He settled in Trenton, Ontario, Canada and married MaryAnn Wilkins Wragg-they had 4 children. Robert Duncan Thomas, James, Flora & Lavinia. Not much help I afraid. Thanks....M
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The most likely candidate for your ancestor James Cumming was living at Wester Carie in the 1841 census. scotlandspeople - 1841 CUMMING, JAMES (Census 376/ 12/ 1) , so that's Logierait parish which had detached sections.
John Cumming, 67, farmer
Susanna Cumming, 74
Margaret Cumming, 35
James Cumming, 26 (not 24 as in the index - some transcribers can't read)
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Susanna Robertson (as separated, she may be a domestic servant and not part of the family)
All were born in Perthshire.
There is no James Cumming of the correct age in the 1851 census, the only one that is close is the Kilmadock entry, and he is the son of Magnus Cumming.
Throth
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Hi,
James was the son of Duncan Cumming and Flora Cameron. Both were residing in Camghouran for their marriage Mar 29, 1807.
Their children's births are not recorded or available in the parish records which is not uncommon for records between 1800 and 1855.
Duncan Cumming had a natural daughter named Sybella born Jan 28, 1801 at Camghouran with a Margaret Cameron - natural meaning out-of-wedlock/illegitimate.
I have not identified Duncan's parents but suspect he was son to Alexander Cumming and Isabel Cumming who were residing in nearby Carie. They had a daughter Sybella (not a common name).
He likely had a brother named James who had a natural daughter Margaret born July 7, 1795 at Camghouran with Christian Cameron. Margaret married Archibald Cameron in 1815. they resided at Camghouran in the 1841/1851/1861 census. She died at Carie Feb 17, 1871.
I have indexed all of the Cummings in the area and assembled some of the trees. Some are here: https://www.mckercher.org/ (https://www.mckercher.org/), the rest (like yours) I have yet to enter as they need more research.
John Cumming and Susan Robertson residing at Carie in the 1841 census was the son of Alexander Cumming and Catherine McDonald I believe. His son James born 1812 resided at Camghouran in 1841/1851 census. James married a Charlotte McKercher. John's sibling Duncan who married Susan Menzies immigrated to Roxborough, Stormont, Ontario (large tree).
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The Cumming families of Rannoch resided in 3 areas:
1 North Shore of Loch Rannoch - Aulich, Craiganour, Torr-a-Chruidh, Lann Breac, Annet and later Killichonan.
2 South Shore of Loch Rannoch - Camghouran and Carie.
3 North of the Tummel - Druimchastle, Blackpark and Bohespic (including Reincluich).
Early records show that some of the Northshore families were originally from Druimchastle. Throth may have better knowledge of the family and the Bohespic area.
An Allan Cumming from a Torr-a-Chruidh family immigrated to Guysborough, Nova Scotia if anyone was wondering where those Cummings came from.
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We were not aware that anyone had started the awesome task of trying to sort out the Cumming families, and you are way ahead of us! The only reason for wandering away from Blair Atholl parish was that some Drumcastle and Drumachuine events were recorded in the Blair Atholl OPR, and then we got 'hooked'.
It is such a pity that the Minister and his Clerk only visited the detached section of the Logierait parish from time to time. Some are in the Fortingall OPR, but a lot never seem to have been recorded.
How many Cumming families, do you think, were living at Aulich? We can't see any of them using the traditional naming patterns, which does not make it easier.
Throth
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The Cumming's at Aulich/Craiganour:
Donald Cumming and Janet Campbell m Dec 21, 1771 - both residing there. No children.
Duncan Cumming and Sarah Robertson m Dec 15, 1758 - he in Aulich and she from Kinloch/Bridgend - 5 children initially born at Craiganour and then Logierait (not sure if Carie or Druimchastle). Daughter Elizabeth died at Killichonan in 1857.
John Cumming and Elizabeth McGregor m Feb 25, 1744 - residing at Druimchastle. I believe his son Allan married Christian McFarlane of Aulich Feb 15, 1784 and their later children born at Craiganour. Son John married Mary Cameron Aug 20, 1824 and they are residing at Killichonan in the 1841 census.
John Cumming and Ann Cumming m Mar 2, 1782 - he in Aulich and she from Dall (near Carie). 7 children. John and 3 of his children are residing at Killichonan in the 1841 census.
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I have all of the Fortingall records sorted into Glenlyon, Rannoch and Bolfracks areas, so I can see who was where. The challenge is the overlap with the detached portions of Logierait. Some of the Fortingall records include Logierait births/marriages for Carie/Druimchastle, and some details appear in the Blair Atholl records on your site. It would be exhaustive/expensive to try to go through Logierait records to identify as most Logierait records are for areas far to the east.
There are definitely records missing for Carie/Druimchastle - more so than the usual gaps in Fortingall. There is a George Cumming b 1758 to John Cumming and Catherine Mc? at Carie. He is likely related to the Camghouran family of this thread. No siblings recorded.
The big Blair Atholl Cumming tree is that of Donald Cumming and Janet Stewart (McCombich) m Dec 31, 1779. He was residing at Reincluich or Ruidh Fliuch just NW of Over Bohespic (ruins), she was of the McCombich stewarts of Lawers, Kenmore - she was residing at Cloichrane on the south shore of Loch Tay. His son John married Isabel Irons of Meigle March 1, 1807. They were residing in Auchleeks? in the 1841/1851 census. Daughter Christian married John McEwen of Kenmore - she died at Acharn in 1861. Daughter Margaret married Duncan Crerar of Cloanlawers - she died Acharn in 1883.
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Thanks for your useful information.
In exchange here is one for you .................
The parents of Alexander Cumming in Torr a'Chruie who married Margaret/ Mary/May McGrigor in 1783 were John Cumming and Mary McGrigor
Fortingall OPR 9/7/1758: Alexander, son to John Cumming and Mary McGrigor in Torrchruie was baptised
Siblings: Christian, 13 Apr 1752; Margaret, 24 May 1752 (sic) and Elspet 8 Jul 1756
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The big Blair Atholl Cumming tree is that of Donald Cumming and Janet Stewart (McCombich) m Dec 31, 1779.
The Blair Atholl Kirk Session minutes for 13th December 1778 show that Donald Cumming in Rientluick (Rientsluie of Trinafour) voluntarily appeared, owned guilt with Janet Stewart in Achtarsin in the parish of Fortingall, paid his own fine of 8s 4d Sterling and was ordered to begin his public appearances at Blair, the next Sabbath. On 20th December 1778 Donald Cumming in Rientluick appeared before the Congregation, was publicly rebuked and ordered to appear the following Sunday at Blair. Finally on 21st March 1779 Donald Cumming in Rientluick paid his party's fine of 8s 4d Sterling which was instantly distributed to the poor.
Donald Cumming in (Rientsluie of) Trinafour and Janet Stewart, lately in Trinafour now in Achtarsin of Fortingall parish, had their illegitimate son baptised 2nd December 1778, named Lauchlen.
31st December 1779, Kenmore OPR
Donald Cumming in Riensluick (Rientsluie of Trinafour) and Janet Stewart in Cloichran(?), Kenmore parish, married.
It is assumed that this was the same Janet Stewart, but being employed at a different farm.
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Thanks Throth,
I have set my index to reflect your parents for Alexander. The parents may not fit because of naming pattern of his children. His father may be a Duncan. Hard to be definitive.
I emailed you my Cumming Index, so you can review/compare.
Thanks for the Kirk Session.
I think Janet Stewart is the same - they just had the first child out of wedlock.
I think this is Rientluick:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.0&lat=56.74331&lon=-4.10380&layers=5&b=1 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.0&lat=56.74331&lon=-4.10380&layers=5&b=1)
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As far as we can tell from the limited number of Baptismal entries, the Cummings were not all that bothered about the traditional naming pattern which makes life a little more difficult when trying to trace branches.
And yes, that is what we are calling Rientsluie of Trinafour. We have passed it many time but never wandered up to look at it. There can only be footings for a cruck-framed house as nothing is visible from the road, as you can see if you use Google maps. It must have been at the edge of the Trinafour land.
Throth
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Strange names.
Ruidh isn't in Am Faclair Beag, Dwelly or MacAlpine, but it redirects to ruith, meaning a chase, race, run, flow, flux, speed etc. Fliuch means wet. So the implication is of a very wet place.
Having a bit of difficulty envisaging how it transliterates to Rientluick/Rientsluie :) I can see that it would lose the f because the noun is feminine, but not where the n and s came from.
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Ruidhe, a sheiling, as in Ryvoan, ruidhe bothain. the sheiling bothy.
Skoosh.
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It may have been a sheiling at one time, which became a permanent residence for a short period of time before everything started to contract again. Many of the settlements north of Woodsheal started off as sheilings. We know that as the occupants claimed that they didn't have to pay the Minister's stipend as originally they had been sheilings.
As for the spelling, well it depended on the Registrars (Session Clerks) and map-makers.
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Thanks. so it's 'wet shieling' then. Attractive name. Not.
Ruidhe isn't in MacAlpine either ???
Still don't see how where an interpolated 'n' or 's' in the transliteration came from.
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Re: McCombich Stewarts
Janet Stewart who married Donald Cumming in 1779 was a McCombich Stewart. The marriage is recorded in Blair Atholl as Stewart and in Kenmore as Combuch.
In the late 1600s a John Colquhoun from Arrochar moved to Kenmore to work under the Lady of Lawers. He married a Janet Murdoch at Lawers in 1703. It is unclear if siblings relocated with him.
An alias of Colquhoun in Arrochar is McCombie, which in this case is recorded in the form of McCombich with various spelling variations. His marriage is recorded as Colquhoun, with his children/descendants as McCombich/Stewart.
John's descendant tree is quite large, with numerous descendants in the Kenmore records with a few families also appearing in Fortingall records in Glenlyon. All later finalized their names as Stewart. They are of course distinct from the other surrounding Stewarts.
Janet was John's granddaughter being the daughter of Duncan Stewart and Janet McVean - born at Lawernacroy, Kenmore in 1758. She was working in Cloichrane, Kenmore at the time of her marriage. She was likely in Trinafour as a female servant when the couple had their first child Lachlan out of wedlock.
There are quite a number of Kenmore/Killin families/individuals moving to or working in Rannoch/Tummel/Foss, so it is not odd to see this kind of movement.
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This just gets more and more complex - the McVean families that we have come across appear as McBeath / McBeth in the Blair Atholl OPRs
Throth
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The McVean spelling form is generally specific to this Killin family:
https://web.archive.org/web/20211225110123/http://www.bobbiev.net/mcvean3.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20211225110123/http://www.bobbiev.net/mcvean3.html)
This is the large family present in Kenmore/Killin. There are also McVean present at Nether Blarish/Drumcharry Fortingall (and also in Dull) - I am not sure if they relate or are of different origin.
Callander/Balquhidder etc use the spelling McBeth/McBeath. McVean is same name, just a variant. McBain also?
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Ruidhe, try Dwelly.
Ryvoan or Ryvoanvore, a sheiling on the estate border, was let as a hill farm to James Grant to prevent encroachments from Glenmore stock.
A soldier in Spain, Grant was probably promised it for signing up. He was shot in the knee then fired his parting shot at the French and somehow made it home to Ryvoan, no doubt there was also a Ryvoanbeg, Wee Ryvoan, at one time.
James built the but & ben and due to family pressures built the faur-ben at the east end as was common. Filled with box beds it became a very famous bothy after the Grant's gave it up. During the war it had occasional use by the Norwegian troops of the Kompani Linge based at Glenmore but due to a fire in the 50s the but & ben was completely destroyed and what remains now is the single room of the faur-ben. Not many visitors got that far hence to be "faur-ben" with somebody means to be well in. ;D
The stones of the house, apart from those used to build the west gable, were carted away to build a climbing wall at Glenmore Lodge.
Somewhat off topic but anybody who was anybody in the Scottish hills, has sat at the fire in Ryvoan. Must get my old ruckie oot and have a sniff! ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
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How great to find this fairly recent entry regarding my ancestors ! I believe Donald & Janet to be my 5 x great grandparents through their daughter Catharine , born around 1781 . She married a Robert McDonald - marriage date not found- and died in 1861 in Pittagowan. That gives me something to work on ! Thanks all !
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This is all that we have, as we are concentrating on the Cumming surname.
Robert MacDonald and Catharine Cumming in Drumachuine
The OPR marriage entry for Catharine Cumming and Robert MacDonald, wright in Drumachuine has not been found, and the name of Catharine's husband comes from her death certificate. The couple seem to have married around 1812 as they had a child baptised the following year, named Robert. Unfortunately, the child seems to have died in infancy as another son Robert was baptised two years later.
8th January 1813, Logierait OPR
Robert, lawful son to Robert MacDonald, wright, and Katharine Cumming in Drumachuine was born January 8th 1813.
21st February 1815, Logierait OPR
Robert, lawful son to Robert MacDonald, wright, and Katharine Cumming in Lynruich of Drumachuine was born February 21st 1815.
Catharine was a widow by the time of the 1841 census when she and her son were living at Blairfettie in Glen Errochty. Robert MacDonald in Blairfettie married Margaret Gow in Kindrochit (of Struan), 23rd April 1843. She was the daughter of Duncan Gow, joiner, and Elizabeth Gow.
Dwelling Name Age Occupation Birthplace
Blairfettie (2) Robert McDonald 21y ag. labourer Perthshire
Catharine Cumming 55y Perthshire
The 1851 census shows that Catharine was living on her own at Drumcroy but next door to her brother, John Cumming, who was a widower with a family.
Dwelling Name Occupation Related Status Age Birth-place
Drumcroy (9) Catharine McDonald head widow 69y Blair Atholl
The 1861 National Census took place on 7th April by which time Catharine was being cared for by her married son at Pitagowan.
Dwelling Name Occupation Related Status Age Birth-place
Pitagowan (13) Robert McDonald road surfaceman head marr 47y Blair Atholl
Margaret McDonald marr 57y Blair Atholl
William McDonald scholar son u/m 17y Blair Atholl
Catha(r)ine McDonald ag. labourer,former mother widow 82y
Catharine McDonald, pauper and widow of Robert McDonald died at Pitagowan (Blair Atholl), aged 82 years, on 17th June 1861. Her parents were given as Donald Cumming, farmer, and Janet Stewart, both deceased. The informant was Robert McDonald her son.
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Generation 4: The Children of Robert MacDonald and Catharine Cumming in Drumachuine
Name Born Married Date Residence Died
Robert Jan 8 1813 died in infancy . rumachuine d. by 1815
Robert Feb 21 1815 Margaret Gow Apr 23 1843 Blairfettie h. 1888
w. 17 Oct 1875
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Thanks for confirming info…FYI…Robert McDonald b1815 died in 1888, Blair Atholl under the name MacDonald ..his son, William, being the informant. Roberts parents are recorded as Robert MacDonald, saw miller and Catharine Cumming …both deceased.
quote author=Throth link=topic=709837.msg7490857#msg7490857 date=1696694403]
This is all that we have, as we are concentrating on the Cumming surname.
Robert MacDonald and Catharine Cumming in Drumachuine
The OPR marriage entry for Catharine Cumming and Robert MacDonald, wright in Drumachuine has not been found, and the name of Catharine's husband comes from her death certificate. The couple seem to have married around 1812 as they had a child baptised the following year, named Robert. Unfortunately, the child seems to have died in infancy as another son Robert was baptised two years later.
8th January 1813, Logierait OPR
Robert, lawful son to Robert MacDonald, wright, and Katharine Cumming in Drumachuine was born January 8th 1813.
21st February 1815, Logierait OPR
Robert, lawful son to Robert MacDonald, wright, and Katharine Cumming in Lynruich of Drumachuine was born February 21st 1815.
Catharine was a widow by the time of the 1841 census when she and her son were living at Blairfettie in Glen Errochty. Robert MacDonald in Blairfettie married Margaret Gow in Kindrochit (of Struan), 23rd April 1843. She was the daughter of Duncan Gow, joiner, and Elizabeth Gow.
Dwelling Name Age Occupation Birthplace
Blairfettie (2) Robert McDonald 21y ag. labourer Perthshire
Catharine Cumming 55y Perthshire
The 1851 census shows that Catharine was living on her own at Drumcroy but next door to her brother, John Cumming, who was a widower with a family.
Dwelling Name Occupation Related Status Age Birth-place
Drumcroy (9) Catharine McDonald head widow 69y Blair Atholl
The 1861 National Census took place on 7th April by which time Catharine was being cared for by her married son at Pitagowan.
Dwelling Name Occupation Related Status Age Birth-place
Pitagowan (13) Robert McDonald road surfaceman head marr 47y Blair Atholl
Margaret McDonald marr 57y Blair Atholl
William McDonald scholar son u/m 17y Blair Atholl
Catha(r)ine McDonald ag. labourer,former mother widow 82y
Catharine McDonald, pauper and widow of Robert McDonald died at Pitagowan (Blair Atholl), aged 82 years, on 17th June 1861. Her parents were given as Donald Cumming, farmer, and Janet Stewart, both deceased. The informant was Robert McDonald her son.
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Generation 4: The Children of Robert MacDonald and Catharine Cumming in Drumachuine
Name Born Married Date Residence Died
Robert Jan 8 1813 died in infancy . rumachuine d. by 1815
Robert Feb 21 1815 Margaret Gow Apr 23 1843 Blairfettie h. 1888
w. 17 Oct 1875
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