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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: ShonaE on Tuesday 30 December 14 07:13 GMT (UK)
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Hello, this is my first post. I have ancestors that have come to New Zealand from Scotland aboard the Duchess of Argyle 1842 , The family of Daniel and Mary CAMPBELL from Paisley. can anybody help me as my gt gt gt grandmother was born aboard the ship, but the shipping passenger list I have read online don't mention her and she is not record as born in NZ. Shona
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Hello Shona.
Happy New Year [2015] to you.
You have signed on, and started a discussion on an old thread of mine, that has been parked up on the COMPLETED BOARD, so I'll ask our Moderator how he would like to handle the issue and get your quest on to the active NZ forum board [possibly with a link to this one].
My computer is so old now, that it does not handle well, all the data that new programmes want to throw at it, so I struggle doing follow up research, and many of the old hands on the board, are excellent at helping / offering advice, and have numerous resources at home, at their finger tips, so can quickly advise you.
- Alan.
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Hi ShonaE, and welcome to RootsChat,
As Fresh Fields has suggested, I can split off your post and subsequent replies to form a new topic.
Can you please reply first, though, and let me know if that's ok with you? I don't want you to suddenly see your post disappear.
Spades
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Hi ShonaE,
Here is a link to a transcription of the passenger list.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/DuchessofArgyle.htm
Some background information regarding the voyage.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/VoyageofDuchess.htm
And can you give us the name of your ancestor, please?
Spades
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My ancestors names were listed on the ships manifest as McEwing, Isaac, Janet and Margaret. But their name is McEwan. That Scots accent got misunderstood I guess...
I have great admiration for my ancestors. I noticed that in one post it mentions a few things about the assissted passengers - rations etc. Very interesting, thank you.
Angela ;D
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My ancestors names were Daniel & Mary Campbell, on the ship passenger list it list's them with 2 children, My gt gt gt grandmothers birth cert say's she was born at sea. her name was Sarah Vernon CAMPBELL.
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Topic split and moved to the New Zealand Board.
Moderator
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Hi Shona,
According to the surgeon's report there were seven births during the voyage, so presumably Sarah was amongst them.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/SurgeonDuchess.htm
Just curious, but I'm intrigued to know what information was provided in her birth certificate. Could you provide us with a transcription, please?
Spades
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Hello ShonaE.
Please add me to SPADES request. You can send the info privately to me by PM if you prefer. From what I’ve researched early Auckland records were few and far between before the c. 1855 civil registration Acts of Parliament in NZ, and in the UK, though from memory I think Scotland lead the pack. Auckland herself was just a baby, and only just starting to grow a governing local bureaucracy.
In the NZ Completed thread you entered RootsChat on, I stated:-
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Our families first recorded NZ [Auckland] baptism was in the Free Presbyterian Church at the end of 1843, however oral history would suggest that the newly married man was very keen that his wife should be off loaded as quickly as possible, so as to give birth in a cleaner and fresher place, than the overcrowded ship. As the family had practised patronymic naming in Scotland, it is a good possibility, but no records survive to prove, or disprove the oral history.
We may groan today about conditions, but don’t really know how lucky we are.
End of Quote.
The reason behind those comments was because in November 1979 I went to the B D & M registrar in down town Auckland. I had phoned and made enquiries first, so they were awaiting my visit. I was taken down stairs to a sub- basement room where I was sat at a small table and handed the original “leather bound” registers. I see I have noted in the margin of my pencil notes that, the deaths entries started in 1848. Of the entries that I transcribed, it was not until the 1870’s before Grand Parent details were recorded. Prior to that, in most cases, only the father was named, unless the Mother’s name was recorded in the margin as the person registering the information. A number had the notation Thomas Bradshaw, Messenger, Provincial Hospital.
I did not find birth entries for the first born after my ancestor’s arrival in 1842, and have had to rely on the Free Presbyterian Church records, for the earliest born in the family, that was to become one of Auckland’s Founding pioneering families.
- Alan.
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Hello again ShonaE
Have you had a scroll through these to see if any involve family ? If not it could pay to have a play around with the family names [playing with different options including only initials and or alternate spellings] to see what might be waiting for you in Government records.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/SimpleSearchResults.do
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/SimpleSearchResults.do
- Alan.
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Hi Alan, I have no idea if im replying correctly as yet .. but hear goes, ok so I don't have an actual birth certificate for Sarah Vernon CAMPBELL, but I do have her marriage , death and a birth certificate for 1 of her children. She married Joseph EDWARDS in Auckland, NZ, Oct 10 1862. Her Death certificate, dated 28/09/1918, states she was born "At Sea" about 75 years. Th e birth certificate for her daughter Ethel Edwards states her as Mother, Sarah Vernon Edwards, nee Campbell. place of birth, " On The High Seas", I have searched the B.D.M and no record of birth for her.
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Hi Shona,
Yes, you're replying correctly. :) :)
'On the High Seas' and the lack of a NZ birth certificate certainly implies that Sarah was one of those seven children born during the voyage.
You could look for a passenger diary for the voyage to see if there's a more specific mention.
This is a book called Log of Logs which lists published passenger diaries from early emigration to NZ. I can have a look for the ship on my next visit to National Library in February if you like.
Spades
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Welcome ShonaE
Thanks for your reply.
You are doing just fine. And as you have found the RC forum members, will soon advise with suggestions if they feel you can be better served.
Your lack of official NZ D B & M certification for your earliest arrivals, mirrors my experience as previously explained. If one religious faith was prominent within your early family, it could pay to check out that religions national archives, and a check of the early names on the Auckland Library site, may also find items of interest. The Auckland Free Presbyterian records I mentioned are there. There were all sorts of one off local police and produce census, or jury lists, and of course various forms of voting enrolment and land tenure records.
Happy hunting,
- Alan.
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Thankyou everyone for your help so far :) A look up in the National Library would be very much appreciated :) I am wondering how Sarah Campbell/Edwards got on in her life without a birth certificate, or were they not necessary back then?
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Hello yet again Shona.
You may have heard it said that you can not be fluent in a second language, until you start thinking in that language, and I look upon research into our NZ pioneers in a similar light. Once you immerse yourself in knowledge of the period you are researching, things start to take shape, and help with your lateral thinking in the search for answers.
You say Sarah Vernon CAMPBELL was b. 1842; m. 1862; d. 1918 so she was in her 50’s before NZ started making progress to women's suffrage. If a woman of that period in NZ was married, she most likely was treated as a chattel, of her husband and very little by the way of assets / property would have been in her name to need, or be mentioned, in legal transactions, deeds. Leases etc. Those that were, were in the main wealthy spinsters or widowed.
When travelling, she and the pre-adult children would have been named on the husbands travelling papers, and they were modest affairs by today’s standards. While there were University degree courses that some women did; the guilds, Masons, etc, certifications in seafaring and steam power plants and steam powered transportation, the internal combustion engine was only just getting a footing [no drivers licence], so licensing was for more mundane things like around hotels / alcohol sales, food handling, and mining claims etc.
In the main women were in the home, nursing, and teaching, Communities were smaller and people had connections, so there was more chances of being known when it came to the likes of seeking jobs in the professions etc.
At the very top of this NZ board you will see advisory threads to assist you, and explain some of the best places to be looking for information in the locality of your search.
The reason for your specific reference to the National Library is not obvious to me, but feel free to ask. Try “Archway” and the on line pages of the leading regional libraries. Also the various Museums have a diverse selection of things old, even down to donated scrap books that happen to contain clippings from long defunct newspapers and periodicals.
All the best.
- Alan.
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Hi Shona E,
I have images of the Duchess of Argyle entry from the book Log of Logs.
Please send me a PM with your email address.
Spades
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Images sent.
Spades
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Hi Shona,
I am wondering how Sarah Campbell/Edwards got on in her life without a birth certificate, or were they not necessary back then?
As Alan says you need to think yourself into the life and times of your ancestors.
Birth Certificates in the last 50 years have become pervasive in officialdom. But remember they are mostly made up of information supplied usually by a parent (or sometimes friend of a parent) with (today) some augmentation from a medical authority. Later the requirement came for a registrar to record whether or not the child was "present " when birth registration was entered.
In the past legal authorities would give less credence to such registration information than to information supplied "under Oath" or by formal "Statutory Declaration".
Each interaction with bureaucracy in the past would collect all the information required for the transaction at hand.
Even your name could and still can be changed by your own whim under common law. Your name is what you call yourself. In the recent past Banks, Employers, Lawyers and Government Departments would record your name and details without reference to past name records. The rot set in when the Old Age Pension came in 1 November 1898. At first proof of age and residence / nationality was provided by appearing at the Magistrates Court. Birth Certificates were often not available (eg born Overseas) and other records such as Baptismal Certificates were often produced. Maori records were not of course like settler records so Maori often missed out.
Other early uses which required proof of Date of Birth were school entry and driver licences.
Many people have come to wrongly regard Birth Certificates as proof of identity but of course there is no necessary link between a person who has a Certificate and the Event and Person described in a Certificate.
Signal
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Just noticed Shona E's post of a year ago, hope its still live.
If Shona is still chasing Sarah Vernon would like to make contact as Sarah Vernons family is on my research list.
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Hello, Yes i am still trying to piece together the Family of Sarah Vernon Campbell, any help would be fantastic ! :)
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Hi Shona
Sarah Vernon is a difficult one to crack. I haven't done it. I do have information that may lead to further research.
In the 1841 census for 15 Canal St, Paisley there is a Campbell family: Daniel (aged 30), Mary(30) and Archibald(9).
0n the passenger list of the Duchess of Argyle there is a Cambell family: Daniel(aged 31), Mary(32), Archibald(10) and Daniel(4).
In the ships surgeons report it says there was 7 births.
On "Denise and Peters" passenger listing it gives the names of the following families having children born at sea: Gollan, Naysmith, McConochie, McDermaid( born & died at sea), Robertson, Wallace and Wilson.
The Auckland Police census of 1844 &1845 has Daniel & Mary living in Fields Lane with 2 children, Daniel being a shoemaker.
The Beresford St Congregational church baptismal register for 1844 has Marion, daughter of Daniel & Mary Campbell.
In the 1849 register of the Free Presbyterian Church the following Campbell family appears:
Archibald born 1842, Paisley
Marion Jane born 1844, Auckland
Children of Daniel from Paisley born 1811 and Mary McKnight his spose born 1809 Paisley.
Daniel born 1838 and Sarah Vernon are missing.
I'll await your comments before continueing. Do you live in NZ?
Bryan
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Hi Bryan, yes i live in New Zealand, Sarah Vernon is my Maternal gt gt gt grandmother. I have a marriage cert that states she married Joseph Edwards in Auckland NZ, 10 October 1862. He was a solider in the 65th Regiment. Her death cert states she was born at sea, she died 1918, Auckland NZ. I have never heard or seen anything to do with a Marion Campbell, Interesting, I also didn't have Marys maiden name, so thankyou for that. :)
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Hi Shona
Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you some original documents.
(Haven't figured how to do personal messaging)
Bryan
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Hi Bryan
Have a look here,it might help
http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
Cheers Janette