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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: aeanorman on Sunday 04 January 15 00:24 GMT (UK)
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Have been trying to discover for a long time if this photo taken of my gg grandfather Robert Hard was taken in Fetterangus. He was born in 1846 to Thomas and Mary Herd. When only quite young he went to sea changing his surname to Hard and came to Australia sometime in the 1880's. He returned to Scotland at least once when this photo was taken. Thomas was a crofter at Easter Toux (16 acres) and a one stage the family lived in the village of Fetterangus.
Any help on this would be wonderful.
Anne
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Hi Anne
Thomas and Mary seem likely to have been in Fetterangus from at least 1895 up to Thomas' death in March 1905.
Scotlands People currently have an offer up 6 January letting you view the index results for Valuation Rolls. You then have to pay 2 units to view the image for an enty. See www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2080 and also www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=708341.0
From the online Valuation Rolls currently available on SP, there seems to be:
1895 Owner & Occupier - Thomas HERD - HOUSE AND GARDEN VILLAGE OF FETTERANGUS, OLD DEER /ABERDEEN COUNTY VR87 / 89 / 796
Two possible entries for wife Mary in 1905:
1905 Tenant & Occupier - Mary HERD, HOUSE FETTERANGUS, OLD DEER BANFF COUNTY VR91 / 83 / 312
1905 Tenant & Occupier - Mary HERD, HOUSE SPECIAL WATER SUPPLY DISTRICT OF FETTERANGUS, OLD DEER ABERDEEN COUNTY VR87 / 99 / 938
Any clues on when your ancestor came home to visit family?
1901 census shows:
Thomas Herd 77 Retired Crofter b. Old Deer, abdnsh
Mary Herd 77 b. Old Deer, abdnsh
Address: Fetterangus Village, Old Deer
Monica :)
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If you search for Fetterangus Parish Church on google maps you'll find that it looks the same as the one in your photo. The streets must have changed as there appears to be houses built directly in front of the church nowadays. Certainly the houses in your photo look like the ones that used to be in Fetterangus (or as the locals call it, Fishie). My great grandparents lived there in the 1900s too.
Regards,
flst
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Thanks Monica and flst, I have checked out the valuation files for Thomas and his son Alexander but must admit I hadn't thought to look under Mary Herd. Mary died in March 1902 and Thomas in March 1905 so not sure the listing would be for her but might still be worth me checking.Think from what my grandmother told me Robert returned early in the 1900's but don't know for sure.
Thanks for your help.
Anne
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Flst, just curious but where are you getting the link showing the church in Fetterangus. My searches have brought up nothing that looks like the building in the photo. Double windows upstairs, single windows either side of the door.
Regards
Malky
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If you look at the mid-Victorian and early 20th century six-inch Ordnance Survey maps at
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.54882&lon=-2.01531&layers=5
the building in the position of the kirk in your photograph is not marked as a kirk, and the old kirk outside the village is shown as in ruins even then.
The only kirk mapped in the village of Fetterangus at any time is on the north side of the street. It is in the second edition of the six-inch map, and in all later maps, but not in the first edition six-inch map. Therefore it was built after the area was surveyed in 1869-70. See
http://www.scottishchurches.org.uk/sites/site/id/10092/name/Fetterangus+Parish+Church%2C+Old+Deer+Old+Deer+Grampian
The absence of any indication on any map of a kirk at the end of the street suggests to me that your original image is not Fetterangus village.
It is obviously a planned village, so it must date from the period between about 1750 and 1850, and the style of the kirk suggests to me that it is towards the end of that period rather than at the beginning. However I don't recognise it so I can't suggest where it might be.
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Not sure about the building being a Kirk. Just as an aside, this is a photo of a property for sale recently on Gaval Street, referred to as the Old Post Office www.aspc.co.uk/search/property/310025/40-42-The-Old-Post-Office--Gaval-Street/Peterhead/
Not good on describing architectural references me :-\, but thought that the turreted windows on this modern photo were very much like the single turret and window on the photo with Robert. Not the same building you would think, we are looking at a single storey originally versus the two storey building described as the 'Old Post Office'. Just thought the turreted area was very similar really.
Anne, didn't know that Robert's mum, Mary, died 1902. With father Thomas also dieing in 1905, that may fit with your family references of Robert coming back early 1900s. Maybe linked to one or both of his parents' deaths?
Some old photos here http://tour-scotland-photographs.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/old-photograph-fetterangus-scotland.html (they look much older than your period).
Monica
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Not sure about the building being a Kirk.
Very interesting images. But if it is the same place, the gable end of the building that looks like a kirk but might not be a kirk has been altered between the taking of the two images.
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Don't think so much it is the same building as there are so many differences (never mind another floor!). Just thought the turreted window style was so similar and maybe a style of the village.
Have tried to find Robert Herd/Hard on shipping manifests to try to help with dates, but no joy so far :-\
Monica
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thought that the turreted windows on this modern photo were very much like the single turret and window on the photo with Robert. Not the same building you would think, we are looking at a single storey originally versus the two storey building described as the 'Old Post Office'. Just thought the turreted area was very similar really.
Yes, but one-and-a-half storey or two-and-a-half storey houses with dormer windows like that are pretty common - neither photo struck me as showing anything in any way remarkable or different.
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Could it be a school? If not, where did he go to school, was it possibly in Mintlaw?
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I don't think it's a school. There was, & still is, a school in Fetterangus, so Robert would most likely have gone to it and not Mintlaw. I now think that that photo may not be of Fetterangus, as the church looks different to the one in the photo. On google maps, if you use the street view, search for 8 Ferguson Street & you'll see the church.
flst
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I now think that that photo may not be of Fetterangus, as the church looks different to the one in the photo. On google maps, if you use the street view, search for 8 Ferguson Street & you'll see the church.
There are several photographs of the kirk in the web site I mentioned above. It doesn't look anything like the building in the photographs.
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A little light relief on buildings.... ::)
Can't see his return journey to the Uk, but thought this might be his arrival to Australia:
Robert Hard aged 36 (born c. 1848). Arrived from Glasgow on the 'Otago' into Brisbane on 24 May 1884.
Indexed entry, no more details.
Monica
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Hi Have had the photo brought to my attention and yes this is Fetterangus. Duke Street now but was South street previously. I stay here and the mystery iof the church I can settle. There were 2 churches. The 1 you see in photo has been demolished, location is where the road is to North place.
That is why it doesn't look like the remaining one.
Thanks. Bruce
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Well, I had many more important things but nothing more urgent to do today, and the forecast was for sunshine, so I collected a few errands to do in north-eastern Aberdeenshire, and paid a visit to Fetterangus among others.
Your photograph is indeed taken in Fetterangus. It is from the foot of Duke Street looking north towards the Square. The first of the two photographs attached is of the house outside which Robert Hard is standing in your photo. The next cottage in your photo is a ruin, and the one after that is the second photo attached. I could not replicate the view in your photo because there is now a thick high hedge on the spot where your photo was taken that completely obscures the cottages between Robert Herd and the kirk.
The kirk was a United Presbyterian kirk, formally opened on 9 November 1882. It stood right in the middle of the north side of the Square, at the intersection of North Place, Gaval Street, Duke Street and Ferguson Street. There are various reports of the opening in the Aberdeen Journal. In 1929 most of the United Presbyterian congregations were reunited with the Church of Scotland, which had the other, probably older, kirk on the main street, and the UP kirk became redundant. It was demolished in the 1930s. I think the difference in the windows in your photo and the other one found online (which is also printed, in much better quality, in a booklet called Old Mintlaw and Strichen on sale at the Lighthouse Museum in Fraserburgh) is that the online one is actually looking down North Place, so it shows the other gable of the UP kirk.
This UP kirk is marked, inconspicuously, on the second edition of the Ordnance Survey six-inch map. See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=57.54753&lon=-2.02148&layers=6
I've put some more views of Fetterangus online at http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ9850 but it may be a day or two before they are moderated and available to view.
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So that's why the two different pictures have different structures to the church. They are the two individual gable ends with different windows etc. The original is looking North up Duke Street, and the one from "Tour Scotland" posted by Monica is looking South down North Place, and that explains the downwards slope on the second one. Well done.
Regards
Malky
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So that's why the two different pictures have different structures to the church.
Yes, that's right. Though if you asked me I'd have said that the road in the Robert Herd pic sloped downwards, whereas in fact it slopes slightly upwards.
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Wow, super sleuthing, Forfarian!
Well done. Great to be able to see in your pictures the actual building too. A bit hedgy, but those turreted windows so distinctively poking out!
Monica :)
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A bit hedgy
Far too hedgy, if you ask me! Impossible to get a shot from the same viewpoint :(
I'd hate to have a great thick dark hedge so close to my door and windows blocking out the light.
The question now is, has Anne Norman seen them?
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Anne doesn't seem to have been on RC since Monday. Sure she will be thrilled when she logs back on ;)
Monica
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You have all been a big help in trying to solve my problem. I had looked on different maps and photo sites and couldn't find the correct configuration of street and kirk. Guess that was my problem as I was only thinking of the building at the end of the street as being a church. I had thought it may have been taken in Old Deer but none of that seemed to match either. Will go back to my photo and try and date match the type of photo. Very thin glossy paper pasted on board. That might be the best way of dating the street. Any ideas on who would have taken photos in this area. Was there a photography studio in Old Deer or would someone travel the district from a larger center.
Cheers
Anne
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After posting my last message I started to reread all your messages and realized I had missed some . Thank you, thank you a thousand times over. This is fantastic and I am thrilled to have found such helpful people on the other side of the world .
Cheers
Anne
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This is an alternative view...
Old picture postcard of South/Duke Street.
Maybe 1920's
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What a lovely picture.Thank you so much for sharing it.
flst
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Hello, Anne. I can't help you with the church photo, but was excited to see you mention my great grandmother's family. She was Robert's sister, Anne Gall Herd, and immigrated to New Zealand in 1874 on the same ship as my ggrandfather, George Anderson, from Old Deer whom she married upon arrival. Are you interested in hearing about the New Zealand connection?
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Yes nfmcc I would love to make contact and exchange family details . Have you seen the wedding photo I posted under the title "another photo from the Robert Hard album". It would be amazing if it was Ann Gall. As jet I haven't been able to find out which family member it is getting married. The older couple behind the bride and groom is Thomas and Mary. Look forward to hearing more from you.
Regards Anne
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Hi nfmcc and Anne :)
If nfmcc makes another post or two here on the main forum, he/she can then use the Private Message service (PMs) and be able to receive personal messages and exchange personal info such as emails etc.
Monica