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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: goof on Friday 02 January 15 19:16 GMT (UK)
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My g-g-grandmother was Catherine McCorry. She married John Cassells and on 6th August 1855 gave birth to Mary Ann Cassells in Analoist, Shankill. Irish Family History Baptism Records lists the family as Roman Catholic.
Catherine died Oct/Dec. 1909 in Lurgan, the records suggest she was born in 1837.
I would be grateful if anyone could shed more light on her birth, parents, etc.
Thank you.
Geoff.
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Catherine died Oct/Dec. 1909 in Lurgan, the records suggest she was born in 1837.
Are you sure of the name, date and place? I can't see a matching death in civil registration index or GRONI.
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Catherine McCorry age 64 in the 1901 census listed as living in Portmore,Ballinderry , Co Antrim ? It is not far from Aghalee which is just outside Lurgan.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ballinderry/Portmore/1002929/
There is also a will on the www.proni.gov.uk ( no image available)
Administration of the Estate of Catherine McCorry late of Portmore County Antrim Widow who died 22 December 1909 granted at Belfast to Arthur Cormican Farmer.
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Sorry !!! Just re-read your query. Obviously it is not the same person as your Catherine's surname would be Cassells.
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My g-g-grandmother was Catherine McCorry.
Hi Geoff, what is the basis of this? Reading through your previous posts, I know that you had established Mary Ann Cassell's father as John, a soldier. Someone then posted a few potential baptisms (on an online website, maybe 'RootsIreland'?) of which the only one with father John was in 1855 in County Armagh - presumably Catherine McCorry is the mother in this record?
But what else have you to corroborate this? You previously queried the leap from Limerick (where an 1881 census return said Mary Ann was born and where she was married) to Armagh, did you ever resolve this?
What did the 1891 / 1901 / etc. census records say about Mary Ann, what about the death record? Did John Cassells' service record reveal anything?
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Thanks, gaffy for mentioning previous posts. So, here are some bits-
My great-great-grandmother Mary Ann Cassells was born in 1855 in Limerick. This is according to the entry in the 1881 census for England. At this time she was married to David Seaman and lived in Gislingham, Suffolk.
Can anyone help me find my maternal great-grandmother Mary Ann Cassells, born in Limerick, Southern Ireland in 1855. I am unable to find her name in Limerick parish records. ... I cannot trace her birth or marriage. I am told by a genealogist in Limerick that Cassells is an English name, and she suggested her father may have emigrated to Ireland, returning home to Suffolk later, where Mary Ann met David in Gislingham where he was born.
The question of Cassells in Ireland was dealt with in the above topic but I would be very wary of any 'genealogist' who said the father could have come from England merely on the basis of an 'English' surname.
My maternal great-grandmother Mary Ann Cassells was married in 1872 in St.Michael's Church, Limerick and I have a copy of the marriage certificate to David Seaman, an English soldier stationed at New Barracks, Limerick. Mary lived in Mallow Street at the time of her wedding. Her father was John Cassells. However the church archivist says there is no record of her birth/christening. Where do I now start in trying to find her birth? The England census of 1881 states she was born in Limerick in 1855.
Mary Ann Cassells supposed to be born Limerick 1855 and married there in 1872- so the Armagh connection looks rather suspicious.
My maternal great-grandmother was Mary Anne Cassells, the England census of 1881 she appears as born in 1855 in Limerick. I have her marriage certificate for 05/10/1872 when she married David Seaman in St.Michael's Church, Limerick. Her denomination is stated to be Church of Ireland. Her father was John Cassells.
Searching for her birth I can only find a Mary Cassells, father John Cassells, born to Catherine McCorry 06/08/1855, address Analoist, Shankill, Lurgan, Co.Armagh, denomination Roman Catholic.
Not being acquainted with Irish religion, etc., does anyone think that this could be her?
Is there a credible reason for the move from Armagh to Limerick?
You seem to have made the leap from Limerick to Armagh merely on the basis of baptismal records that were posted in the topic previous to this. Not all church records survive and of those do not all are available online.
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Returning now to Catherine Cassells-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=341437
The Cassells family in Armagh that you are inquiring about seem to have been Protestant rather than Catholic- another good reason for doubting you are now trying to trace the wrong Mary Ann Cassells.
I still can't see Catherine Cassells in the 1901 census, etc. so please post the links/more details so that we can also see the same details.
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My last excursion into family history was in 2008. Since then I have changed computers and with an incompatible software program I am only now taking up more research.
I cannot remember which particular websites I used back then, so in effect I am starting all over again.
In the meantime there has been so much more information available digitally that my current research is producing more accurate results.
I felt I needed to say all this before replying about the details I have on Catherine McCorry.
DEATH: Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958,General Registry, Custom House, Dublin - Lurgan Oct-Dec 1909, vol1, p510,m/film101,604
GS Film no.0101604, Digital folder no.004201708, Image no.00422.
MARRIAGE: same index, year 1867, volno.16,page no.978, digital folder no.4179383
All the above obtained by using FamilySearch website, and currently looking for her birth details.
Thanks for your interest.
Geoff.
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Your original post on this thread said-
My g-g-grandmother was Catherine McCorry. She married John Cassells and on 6th August 1855 gave birth to Mary Ann Cassells in Analoist, Shankill. Irish Family History Baptism Records lists the family as Roman Catholic.
Catherine died Oct/Dec. 1909 in Lurgan, the records suggest she was born in 1837.
I would be grateful if anyone could shed more light on her birth, parents, etc.
So, I have been searching for Catherine Cassells (using variations in spelling).
Now you've given more details about these marriage and death records-
My last excursion into family history was in 2008. Since then I have changed computers and with an incompatible software program I am only now taking up more research.
I cannot remember which particular websites I used back then, so in effect I am starting all over again.
In the meantime there has been so much more information available digitally that my current research is producing more accurate results.
I felt I needed to say all this before replying about the details I have on Catherine McCorry.
DEATH: Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958,General Registry, Custom House, Dublin - Lurgan Oct-Dec 1909, vol1, p510,m/film101,604
GS Film no.0101604, Digital folder no.004201708, Image no.00422.
MARRIAGE: same index, year 1867, volno.16,page no.978, digital folder no.4179383
The above death record is for a Catherine McCorry NOT Cassells so why on earth would you think this is the woman who was supposed to have married John Cassells?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRN4-WYC
As for the marriage of Catherine McCorry's that you found there is no John Cassells on the same page- the following names appear on that page-
Brides- Catherine M'Corry, Sarah M'Convill, Alice Duffy, Bella M'Gannon
Grooms- William John Murray, John M'Nally, Bernard Ferris, Charles Shanks
Added- the marriage you quoted is for 1876 but you've been trying to trace a Mary Ann Cassells born 1855.
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My last excursion into family history was in 2008. Since then I have changed computers and with an incompatible software program I am only now taking up more research. I cannot remember which particular websites I used back then, so in effect I am starting all over again.
Fair enough, it might help me to quickly retrace your steps. I looked for the 1881 census record for David Seaman and Mary Anne (Cassells) Seaman and children and couldn't find it, was it Gislingham, Suffolk they lived or St Osyth Essex?
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Possibly the correct Mary Ann Seaman in 1911 census- born c1855 Co.Limerick living in Ardleigh, Essex:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWNH-4NS
1901 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9NT-T37
? 1891 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLC3-4N2
1881 census: St Osyth, Essex: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XQZN-B9F
All these records, if I have the correct person, show birthplace as LIMERICK NOT ARMAGH.
Family tree (submitted): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:2:33DY-SKP
Daughter Isabella (b.1874 Scotland not Ireland): https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ7X-981
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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I'm interested in the Catherine McCorry - John Cassells marriage as well as I can't identify their families. While the Cassells in the Lurgan are were virtually all Protestants, there were a few marriages to Catholics.
As above, I don't think the Mary Cassells m David Seaman was daughter of this couple??, [their daughter being christened in Lurgan......] though her father was also John Cassells and she was also b about 1855. She was married in Limerick and the English census 1881/1891/1901 all have her as b Limerick.
There was a Catherine Cassells in Annaloist in 1864 in the Griffiths Valuation, the property owned by John McAlinden, who lived nearby.
On the 1901 census of Annaloist there is a John McAlinden with wife Elizabeth McCorry - married in 1866. John's address on the marriage record was Annaloist, Elizabeth's Silverwood and he father John. Both said to be 20yo. May be a clue with another McCorry - McAlinden connection? If Catherine McCorry was married just before birth of daughter Mary Ann, she could be born about 1835 so could fit as sister of Elizabeth.
Also there was a John Castles, married, who I can't find family for who died 1884 aged 60, address Annaloist.
Edit - was in PORTADOWN AND LUTRON? NEWS, SATURDAY, OCT, 4; 1884 SUDDEN DEATH NEAR LURGAN
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Also there was a John Castles who I can't find family for who died 1884 aged 60, address Annaloist.
Looks to have been mis-transcribed - John Cassells - Coroner's Inquest - 29 September 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06310/4809332.pdf
Found dead (or lived) at Derry townland.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/shankill/lurgan/derry/
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On the 1901 census of Annaloist there is John McAlinden with wife Elizabeth McCorry - married in 1866. John's address on the marriage record was Annaloist, Elizabeth's Silverwood and he father John. Both said to be 20yo.
URL Link - 13 February 1866 at St Peter's RC Church, Lurgan.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1866/11520/8236629.pdf
1911 census
House 15 in Annaloist (Brownlows Derry, Armagh)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Brownlows_Derry/Annaloist/334941/
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001652310/
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Thank you, what was the mistranscription? I must have also seen the details in a newspaper article which I can't find now but have copied it:
".......... 29-9-1884
A John Castles of Annaloist was found dead on the Lough Neagh Road at about 10 o'clock yesterday on a lot of grass opposite the demense of JW Greer, Esq, J.P"
Also there was a John Castles who I can't find family for who died 1884 aged 60, address Annaloist.
Looks to have been mis-transcribed - John Cassells - Coroner's Inquest - 29 September 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06310/4809332.pdf
Found dead (or lived) at Derry townland.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/shankill/lurgan/derry/
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Thank you, what was the mistranscription?
If you look at the IrishGenealogy death record for him, the Registrar has written his surname as Cassells but has been entered by the transcriber in the database as Castles.
***Edited to Add***
The date of his death appears to have been written by the Registrar as 27 Septr 1884
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Ah right, common for that variation!
There were very few Castles and no Cassells in Limerick in 1901 so probably not a common name there earlier either? [Only one in the Griffiths Valuation too - a William Castles].
This John [of Limerick] I found could fit as father of Mary Ann b 1855 . He is on a few Ancestry trees but only child I saw was Isabella b 1849
Name John Cassels
Marriage Date 6 Sep 1848
Marriage Place Civil Records, Misc, Ireland [Limerick]
Father James Cassels
Spouse Eliza Alfred
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There were very few Castles and no Cassells in Limerick in 1901 so probably not a common name there earlier either? This John I found could fit as father of Mary Ann b 1855 . He is on a few Ancestry trees but only child I saw was Isabella b 1849
Name John Cassels
Marriage Date 6 Sep 1848
Marriage Place Civil Records, Misc, Ireland [Limerick]
Father James Cassels
Spouse Eliza Alfred
Here's the actual marriage record which gives full details-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1848/09351/5386221.pdf
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This John Castles could be husband of Mary McNally. He was baptised 1827 and lived in Annaloiste. I haven't found any other marriage records for John Castles from 1845-1865
Thank you, what was the mistranscription? I must have also seen the details in a newspaper article which I can't find now but have copied it:
".......... 29-9-1884
A John Castles of Annaloist was found dead on the Lough Neagh Road at about 10 o'clock yesterday on a lot of grass opposite the demense of JW Greer, Esq, J.P"
Also there was a John Castles who I can't find family for who died 1884 aged 60, address Annaloist.
Looks to have been mis-transcribed - John Cassells - Coroner's Inquest - 29 September 1884
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1884/06310/4809332.pdf
Found dead (or lived) at Derry townland.
https://www.townlands.ie/armagh/oneilland-east/shankill/lurgan/derry/
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This John Castles could be husband of Mary McNally. He was baptised 1827 and lived in Annaloiste. I haven't found any other marriage records for John Castles from 1845-1865
A bit unclear who the 'This John Castles......' is referring to.
Is it to the marriage certificate found by Aghadowey or to the extracts fro various posts in your post. Could have been clarified by inserting (below) if you were referrring to the extracts in your post.
Have we heard about Mary McNally before?
And just for a bit of info: here in NZ there is a definite & distinct difference in the way we pronounce Castles and Cassel/ls, mainly in the the double 's' in Cassells is pronounced like the way you would pronounce the Irish shortform name of Cass, for Catherine or Cassandra. The Cas/sel/l families I know would be very surprised to hear their name pronounced as Castle.
Is it the spelling or the pronunciation that is interchangeable?
PS Aha poster is Australian and my Australian born, NZ resident Gt Grandmother apparently pronounced Castle as Casstle, passed it on to her children and then sometimes her grandchildren like my mother and her brothers. They sometimes came out with what others regarded as an Australian pronunciation despite never having lived there and despite the last memebr of the family having left Aus at the age of 28. This Casstle pronunciation does definetely sound more like Cassels.
All spellings should be investigated though we cannot say, with certainty, that they are all pronounced the same.
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Castles evolved from or was frequently used interchangably for Cassells by those writing the info.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Brownlows_Derry/Annaloist/1024021/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Brownlows_Derry/Annaloist/334945/
A protestant Robert was son of a John https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1855/09494/5441025.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/North_Street/1026039/
wife's death as Castles https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05775/4632783.pdf
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Shanreagh
local accents can be strong in the area: Unlocking Our Sound Heritage / The Blacksmith of the Pound / Taghnevan Allotments
from https://lurgantownscapeheritage.com/lurgan-stories/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65984249
on the links in my previous comment they all marked X rather than signing (someone else filled in Francis' 1901)
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Shanreagh
local accents can be strong in the area: Unlocking Our Sound Heritage / The Blacksmith of the Pound / Taghnevan Allotments
from https://lurgantownscapeheritage.com/lurgan-stories/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65984249
on the links in my previous comment they all marked X rather than signing (someone else filled in Francis' 1901)
I'm not doubting the power of accents.
What I was pointing out that we look at spellings. These can be weird, wonderful, alliterative, then on emigration these accents/spellings are passed through the ears and hands of other emigrants now in positions of recording details from applicants who are illierate.
But we should not be beguiled into thinking that generally in Ireland Castle is pronounced Casstle. Castle and Cassells might be often used for each other but mostly that are not pronounced the same. In the north McLoughlin is not said the same as McLachlan though it is reputed to be the 'same' name' and in my own family Calahan is not pronounced the same as Callaghan. Some Callaghans pronounce the G others don't.
But in searching for names we would look for both.
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In Ulster, Castles and Cassells are generally both pronounced as you would Cassells.
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Castles evolved from or was frequently used interchangably for Cassells by those writing the info.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Brownlows_Derry/Annaloist/1024021/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Brownlows_Derry/Annaloist/334945/
A protestant Robert was son of a John https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1855/09494/5441025.pdf
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/North_Street/1026039/
wife's death as Castles https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1900/05775/4632783.pdf
Most of those have evolved from others filling out the forms the first 'Cassells' signature should really be 'PP' Cassells as by the 1911 we are in no doubt that the 1901 form has been signed as completed by another.
The point is spelling though. Happy to encourage looking at all sorts of alternative spellings but not that these spellings are all pronounced in the same way.
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We are in agreeement that the info was verbal. But l disagree on the pronunciation aspect as a native of Belfast of 50 years and agree with Aghadowey. There is no emphasis on the ss and the t is entirely silent.
Lets leave it there and jointly help Sunnyhill with anything further.
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It may even be argued that the writing and signature of the Francis Cassells in 1901 is no more his own than the 1911 return. The handwriting in 1901 is very clear and well formed whilst the 1911 form was done with Francis making his mark.
In Ulster, and indeed Ireland, it was not uncommon to find variations in spelling of names even amongst literate people. Sometimes different branches of a family finally used different versions of the surname but other times they might have gone back and forth without any consistancy.
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I've never pronounced the t in Castle yet! Are there English speakers who do?
All I'm saying is that there are different ways of pronouncing surnames. The Cassells I know here in NZ would be astonished if you pronounced it the same as Castle. (Actually thinking about it the Cassells here may hark back to England and then Germany than Ireland and so there may have been a difference very early on)
Cassells here in NZ has a long SS sound. My grandmothers name was Cass and she was from the North and said her Cass name differently from the word Castle. Her Australian MiL though did pronounce Castle with a double SS as I think is the common pronunciation now in Aus. Here in NZ the words are spoken differently.
Anyway we are about spelling not accents. All I'm saying is to search spellings but not to assume that different spellings are said the same.......
Then I had a friend xxx Callaghan whose name was said the same way as my Callahans, ie no 'G'
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Sometimes different branches of a family finally used different versions of the surname but other times they might have gone back and forth without any consistancy.
https://archive.org/details/varietiessynony00math/page/n21/mode/2up gives other examples
fairly lighthearted intro then basically variations that Ancestry/Findmypast etc now allow for when we enable.
Specifically to assist them with the written record "Varieties and synonymes of surnames and Christian names in Ireland : for the guidance of registration officers and the public in searching the indexes of births, deaths, and marriages"
pdf version perhaps easier https://ia600908.us.archive.org/31/items/varietiessynonym00math/varietiessynonym00math.pdf
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I was meaning the John Castles found dead next to the the Lough [Neagh] Road could be husband of Mary McNally. Don't think I have found any other death records that could fit the John husband of Mary either. Mary McNally is otherwise not relevant I guess but they married in 1857, her address Annaloist, father Nicholas.
With the pronounciation, I have only ever heard our name and the Castles version pronounced Cass-ells rather than Car - sells by family / Irish people [but we migrated when I was 5] though some people in Australia say Car - sells
This John Castles could be husband of Mary McNally. He was baptised 1827 and lived in Annaloiste. I haven't found any other marriage records for John Castles from 1845-1865
A bit unclear who the 'This John Castles......' is referring to.
Is it to the marriage certificate found by Aghadowey or to the extracts fro various posts in your post. Could have been clarified by inserting (below) if you were referrring to the extracts in your post.
Have we heard about Mary McNally before?
And just for a bit of info: here in NZ there is a definite & distinct difference in the way we pronounce Castles and Cassel/ls, mainly in the the double 's' in Cassells is pronounced like the way you would pronounce the Irish shortform name of Cass, for Catherine or Cassandra. The Cas/sel/l families I know would be very surprised to hear their name pronounced as Castle.
Is it the spelling or the pronunciation that is interchangeable?
PS Aha poster is Australian and my Australian born, NZ resident Gt Grandmother apparently pronounced Castle as Casstle, passed it on to her children and then sometimes her grandchildren like my mother and her brothers. They sometimes came out with what others regarded as an Australian pronunciation despite never having lived there and despite the last memebr of the family having left Aus at the age of 28. This Casstle pronunciation does definetely sound more like Cassels.
All spellings should be investigated though we cannot say, with certainty, that they are all pronounced the same.
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As Catherine McCorry was listed as occupant in the Griffiths Valuation, I assume she was a widow?
So she would not have been wife of the John Cassells d 1884?