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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: delicatelines on Monday 29 December 14 00:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm having some trouble finding information on my 3x g-grandfather and his ancestors, John Bowey (sometimes splled Bowie) Hardy.
I've found a baptism record for 1828 with his exact name, with the place as St Nicholas in Newcastle, mother listed as Margaret Hardy (or Margaretta, depending on which website used!).
I've also found his marriage in 1846 to Mary Ann Oliver, and the census records from 1851 onwards, including what I believe to be details of his probate record. These all have him living in Cramlington, and working as a butcher. However, I'm having real difficulties in tracing either a 1841 census for him (bearing in mind rounding of ages) or any other information about his parents or siblings etc.
I'm still quite new to this so may be missing something really obvious, so any help would be most appreciated :)
Thanks,
Frances
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Hi
His mother may have married pre-1841 and he may be entered under her new surname
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Outside possibility he is the 13yr old indexed as John Fardy. He is a male servant so not with parents
HO107 Piece 828 Book 15 living in Alwinton - no folio or page number given
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What address was he living at on the marriage certificate?
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Outside possibility he is the 13yr old indexed as John Fardy. He is a male servant so not with parents
HO107 Piece 828 Book 15 living in Alwinton - no folio or page number given
Yes, that could be a possibility - hadn't spotted that. Annoying if it is him as I still have no idea on his parents!
What address was he living at on the marriage certificate?
I've not got a marriage certificate, but I have considered ordering one. Do you know what kind of information a certificate issued at this time would have?
Thanks both for your help :)
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As you already know he was illegitimate, the marriage cert should not show a fathers name and it doesn't. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NP1L-GQ6
See this short transcript on FS. Mary's father is shown but not John's.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N65C-5TC
The witnesses may be siblings of either - or no relation at all.
Being realistic - it's difficult to make a case for buying his marriage cert as I don't think it will help you
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As you already know he was illegitimate, the marriage cert should not show a fathers name and it doesn't. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NP1L-GQ6
See this short transcript on FS. Mary's father is shown but not John's.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N65C-5TC
The witnesses may be siblings of either - or no relation at all.
Being realistic - it's difficult to make a case for buying his marriage cert as I don't think it will help you
Thanks for this. I did know he was illegitimate and I've just located the original baptism record which definitely does not show a father either! I suppose that there's not really a lot else that can be done to trace Margaret and her family either. Thanks for your help anyway!
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Just to put forward a different view, if I were in your shoes I would definitely get the marriage certificate, or even better, order the film of All Saints' marriages through the LDS family history centres (I have assumed you are not within easy reach of Newcastle upon Tyne itself). See www.familysearch.org for how to set up an account and order on line. According to the link provided by Carole the film number is 847909.
Yes, there is a good chance that you will learn nothing new. But you might. The witnesses may be family members who could lead you to another snippet of information. The addresses might be helpful - you just never know until you see it. You might find that young as he is, your ancestor was a widower when he married Mary Ann. If you view the film of the register, there is a tiny chance that perhaps there is some info written there that is crossed out and so did not make it to the certificate you would get from the GRO. I have seen all sorts of notes in registers and those of us with illegitimate ancestors have to collect every scrap of info we can gather.
I accept that some have different views, but although I am relatively new to Rootschat I have been pottering away at my family history for some time and again, if I were in your shoes, I would make sure I had every certificate available for John and his mother. I understand that certs get expensive but it is so easy to go awry if you don't take care and document each step as far as possible. Death certs can also be helpful. An informant on a death certificate can be a clue to a family connection that you may not have been aware of.
It is cheaper to order certs through the General Register Office rather than through commercial sources - apologies if you already knew this. Here is the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
BTW, this link will tell you what you can find on the certs - you have to scroll down a bit
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory
Ordering films of church registers through the LDS is the cheapest option of all, especially as you can pick up other family marriages, but it is slower. If you have a look at the on line film catalogue for Newcastle upon Tyne, there is a film of Bastardy Bonds for Newcastle although from memory it is mostly maintenance orders. These name the mother, the reputed father, and the amount the latter was obliged to pay for his child. Only the tip of the iceberg in terms of illegitimate children, but you might strike it lucky and find some information. Unless the name Bowie has a connection through the mother's side, it may be an indication of the father - just something else to explore and test.
Good luck
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Just to put forward a different view, if I were in your shoes I would definitely get the marriage certificate, or even better, order the film of All Saints' marriages through the LDS family history centres (I have assumed you are not within easy reach of Newcastle upon Tyne itself). See www.familysearch.org for how to set up an account and order on line. According to the link provided by Carole the film number is 847909.
Yes, there is a good chance that you will learn nothing new. But you might. The witnesses may be family members who could lead you to another snippet of information. The addresses might be helpful - you just never know until you see it. You might find that young as he is, your ancestor was a widower when he married Mary Ann. If you view the film of the register, there is a tiny chance that perhaps there is some info written there that is crossed out and so did not make it to the certificate you would get from the GRO. I have seen all sorts of notes in registers and those of us with illegitimate ancestors have to collect every scrap of info we can gather.
I accept that some have different views, but although I am relatively new to Rootschat I have been pottering away at my family history for some time and again, if I were in your shoes, I would make sure I had every certificate available for John and his mother. I understand that certs get expensive but it is so easy to go awry if you don't take care and document each step as far as possible. Death certs can also be helpful. An informant on a death certificate can be a clue to a family connection that you may not have been aware of.
It is cheaper to order certs through the General Register Office rather than through commercial sources - apologies if you already knew this. Here is the link
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
BTW, this link will tell you what you can find on the certs - you have to scroll down a bit
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory
Ordering films of church registers through the LDS is the cheapest option of all, especially as you can pick up other family marriages, but it is slower. If you have a look at the on line film catalogue for Newcastle upon Tyne, there is a film of Bastardy Bonds for Newcastle although from memory it is mostly maintenance orders. These name the mother, the reputed father, and the amount the latter was obliged to pay for his child. Only the tip of the iceberg in terms of illegitimate children, but you might strike it lucky and find some information. Unless the name Bowie has a connection through the mother's side, it may be an indication of the father - just something else to explore and test.
Good luck
Thanks for the tips. I'm not too far from Newcastle, but unfortunately don't often get the time to go up and have a search (I'm using the festive period to catch up on some much overdue research!).
I didn't know about the Bastardy Bonds - sounds very interesting, and worth a look! I did wonder that about Bowey/ie - as far as I can see that was the first time it appeared in the family; I certainly haven't seen it on Mary Ann's side.
As a side note, I did some searching on his mother, who is actually recorded as 'Margaretta' on the original baptism record that I located. There is a Margaretta Hardy baptised at the same church in 1804. I can't see the original record (it appears to be on the bottom of a page that has been cut off - frustrating!) I think it's likely that's her (right name, same spelling, and right age) but I have no other proof, just a hunch, and I'm not going to add her without anything further. I'm thinking that ordering some birth and marriage certificates and making some time to comb through the records may be useful in helping solve this mystery!
Frances
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When you say you have seen the original baptism records, are you referring to the Bishops Transcripts on Familysearch?
If so then these are not the original records, they were a separate document copied from the original parish registers and sent to the Bishop. They do not always contain all of the information on the original parish register, so its always advisable to view the original parish register at the records office if at all possible.
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England and Wales Christening Records
This record has info on the parents and grandparents if it should turn out to be the correct Margaretta.
Margaretta Hardy
born 29.01.04
bap 29.04.04
Newcastle upon Tyne
Father Henry
mother Mary Scurr
p/grandfather John Hardy
m/grandfather William Scurr
Vera
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FreeREG has a Henry HARDY/Mary SCORER Marriage 27 July 1799, St Bartholomew, Longbenton
Another Child of Henry/Mary;
WILLIAM Hardy, Christened 18 May 1806, Birth 8 Feb 1806
Father Henry HARDY
Mother Mary SCORAH*, Maternal Grandfather WILLIAM Scorah
(Source Anc.)
Trish :)
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The Northumberland archives reopened yesterday and I checked the baptism register for St Nicholas Newcastle
Film M698 St Nicholas, Newcastle
“1828 Sept 10th John Bowie son of scribbled out, looks like John and possibly Bowie and Margarette/Margaretta HARDY of Wallsend spinster”
and
Film M698 St Nicholas, Newcastle
"1804 Margaretta Hardy b Jan 29th bapt Apr 29th 2nd dau of Hemry HARDY horsekeeper native of Washington Co DUR son of John HARDY by his wife Mary SCORR? dau of William SCURR? native of this parish"
Gen in NBL England
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Hi,
I am also struggling with the same problem - John Bowie Hardy is also my 3 x great grandfather (through my grandmother, Joan Hardy). I live in Newcastle so have have been to the archives but not found anything to help beyond what you or others have posted, but will try and go back when I have time to see if there’s is anything I have missed. I am also finding it strange that I can’t find any John Bowie/ John Hardy or Margaret/ Margaretta Hardy who seem to be likely candidates in the 1841 census (there others with those names but either are clearly other people as they also feature in later censuses or the details don’t match up). I have some photos of his son, William, and family if you would be interested in electronic copies btw
Charlotte
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For elimination purposes;
Possible Marriages;
Nathaniel WEDDLE/Margaret HARDY 7 Jul 1830 Ovingham
Charles OWEN/Margaret HARDIE 04 Oct 1830 Newcastle
Robert DIXON/Margaret HARDY 04 Feb 1837 Newcastle
1841 Census
Nathaniel Weddle, 35
Margret Weddle, 35
Robert Weddle, 9
Margret Weddle, 8
1851/1861 Margaret Weddle is born c 1798/1801 Wooler
1851 Census
Robert Dixon, 56
Margaret Dixon, 44
Margaret Dixon, 7
Hannah Dixon, 4
1851/1861/1881 Margaret Dixon is born c 1808 Haltwhistle
Cant find anything on Charles/Margaret Owen