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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: airwest on Saturday 27 December 14 22:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone shed any light on Samuel Bates born Wednesbury England 1857 died Sydney Australia 1941 I believe he was a drummer boy in England and then served in the Sudan wars while living in Australia and is buried in Rookwood Cemetery with his wife Martha
many Thanks
Gail
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Welcome to Rootschat Gail.
Do you have Samuel's death certificate? This should tell you his parent's names and other information to enable you to find him and his family back in England. If he married in Australia, his marriage certificate should give similar details.
Do you know when he emigrated to Australia? Depending on dates you may be able to find him in England on censuses with his family.
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Freebmd has a birth registered in the March quarter of 1857 in West Bromwich (which covers Wednesbury) for a Samuel Bates 6b 661. He appears to be a likely candidate, however you would still need to know the name of your Samuel's father to know if this is the correct birth.
Surprisingly there are very few Samuel Bates born in Staffordshire around this time.
Let me know if you need help ordering certificates. For NSW certificates it is cheaper to use a transcription service rather than purchase a certified copy. I can point you in the right direction if you wish to go ahead with this.
I suspect you may already know a little more about Samuel than you have revealed in your first post - eg. Where did you get the information about his place of birth? His military service? The information about him being a drummer boy?
The more information you can give the better to save others from duplicating what you already know about Samuel. :)
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Looking for Samuel Bates bc 1857 in the 1861 census there are a couple of candidates, so the Free bmd results are perhaps a little misleading.
One which caught my eye due to the fact that he was born and is living in Wednesbury, has parents John and Sarah Jane and a number of siblings. You would need his father's name from one of his Australian certificates to be certain. Perhaps his military papers may also provide clues as to parentage, but I cannot advise how to go about searching for this.
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IF that is the correct family in 1861, then there is a marriage for John Bates with a Sarah Jane Tomlinson on the same page. This marriage is registered in West Bromwich in 1853, which fits in date and place wise so may be the correct marriage as their first child, according to the 1861 census, was born in 1854.
Further research and confirmation of your Samuel's parent's names required before accepting this couple into your tree. :)
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Many Thanks
Your right, I do know a little more I have tracked the family back to 1754. But I was hoping that someone could help guide me in the right direction, regarding him being a drummer boy approx 1869 onward as we are only going by family hearsay and to an exact burial place, as there is conflicting information from Rookwood Cemetery it's self and I can't find a headstone and as the older past generation have passed there is no one to refer back too and being the oldest at 70yrs, its been left to me
Yes, his father's name was John and his mother Sarah and the last trace of Samuel in the census was when he was 13 yrs and next appears when he left for the sudan wars from Australia
All paper work regarding him have disappeared over the years
Thanks for your help
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Do you think he was a drummer boy in the military? I remember an episode of Who Do You Think You Are and I think one of the celebreties' ancestors was a bugler and there were records for him, but
I don't know where you would start finding a drummer in the UK. If he was in a community band or similar it is not likely that there is any record of this.
Was he a drummer in Sudan too?
Perhaps someone on the Armed Forces board may be able to help? :-\
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Re..your Samuel BATES b. ~ 1857
"...when he left for the Sudan wars from Australia"
The NSW Infantry Contingent for the Sudan left Sydney Mar 1885. Samuel would have been aged late 20s. The military connection might not be correct.
(my correction....I thought you were saying he was drummer boy in Sudan)
Further to burial place....where is his wife buried......and what is the conflicting information from Rookwood please?
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SMH 20 May 1941
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17765533?
...Samuel BATES....Sudan Contingent........
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Hi
I have no idea if he was a drummer boy only family recollections they thought he may have been and he did leave from Australia in 1885 age 27 service number 17 with the colonial forces and left Australia in Feb 1885
his wife and he are buried together in Rookwood anglican cemetery I have been given two different plot numbers the first one proved wrong and the second one seems to fit the bill but there is no headstone to verify it
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It is worth checking, but family stories such as this can lead you on a wild goose chase.
And if you do discover he was a drummer boy at some stage in his youth, it will probably not add anything significant to his life story. Might he have even belonged to a Colliery Band? Do you know what his occupation was before joining the military?
Is it just curiosity on your part to look into this family story or is there more to it?
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I wonder if it would be worth contacting these people to see if they can give you some ideas on where to search:
http://blackcountryhistory.org/subjects/
You might need to define a time frame to search for Samuel in the UK, so it might be useful if you knew when he came to Australia. :) Do you know?
As the family worked in the Tube Works and in 1871 aged 13, Samuel was a labourer there, and the family had many children, they were probably living in employer provided housing living hand to mouth. Unless well off or criminal there is unlikely to be any newspaper reports or paper trail of any sort for this family. I would stick my neck out and say that a drummer boy is not likely to get a mention anywhere, unless the band won competitions perhaps. ;) But this is out of my area of expertise and others may know differently.
Good luck.
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I see that the family are still in Wednesbury in 1881, minus Samuel so he must have emigrated alone by that time, or is elsewhere in the UK. Father John is out of employment and there are more children, so perhaps Samuel was escaping a difficult life? All assumptions of course. ;)
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Hi Ruskie
I know he worked in the gas tube works as a labourer at age 13 in 1871 and supposedly left the to join the army. He arrived in Australia in 1878 at about 20yrs .
I suppose it's a mixture of both curiosity and to find out what moulded the man who is part of my immediate family that stares down at me from the bookcase
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Thanks Ruskie
I can't believe how quickly you found all that info that has taken me months
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Perhaps you could investigate what newspapers were around at the time as your family may have got a mention in local Wednesbury newspapers. Maybe worth a try?
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Good thought its worth a try! :
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Samuel BATES, Service No. 17, enlisted 18 Feb 1885, aged 27 years. He was a married man, born Wednesbury, England. His occupation was Blacksmith.
http://203.6.144.30/people/rolls/R1440889/
Hi
I have no idea if he was a drummer boy only family recollections they thought he may have been and he did leave from Australia in 1885 age 27 service number 17 with the colonial forces and left Australia in Feb 1885
his wife and he are buried together in Rookwood anglican cemetery I have been given two different plot numbers the first one proved wrong and the second one seems to fit the bill but there is no headstone to verify it
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13578100 SMH 21 Feb 1885, Samuel BATES medical exam for his enrolment :)
Add
Oath of Allegiance at Paddington Barracks http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111178352 Evening News 19 Feb 1885, so likely Samuel BATES was Sydney based prior to volunteering for the Sudan.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory Free to search Sands Directories covering 1858 to 1933 :)
From NSW State Records Office Archives Investigator index
Samuel BATES, DD 17 May 1941, Probate granted 17 June 1941. NSW Probate files often contain the death cert, the will, the details of the beneficiaries, and sometimes even the marriage cert and birth certs of the children of the marriage.
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Search.aspx
Cheers, JM
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WOW ! Thank you so much !!!!
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I am not able to confirm if the info below IS for your Samuel, so I am speculating that it may be:
NSW Electoral Roll 1913 NEWTOWN, polling at Wilson Street
Alfred BATES, of Copeland Ave, linotyper
Martha BATES, of Copeland Ave, domestic duties
Samuel BATES, of Copeland Ave, railway employee
Samuel BATES married Martha TURNER in July 1884, registered at Balmain. #2100
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
It is possible that the NSW BDM registry has a fully reconciled marriage registration, as this 1884 marriage was in the Sydney Metro area. If so, then the full details about Samuel’s and Martha’s parents will be included on that cert, as well as the ages of both Samuel and Martha, and their places of birth, and their dad’s occupation, and their usual addresses, and their occupations. These details will help you confirm or eliminate this couple. If on the other hand that registration has not been fully reconciled by the NSW BDM, then some, or all of that vital info may not be available from NSW BDM records. NSW BDM website notes this and suggests you seek out the church records. Here’s a thread I prepared some time ago and recently updated to help overcome these elusive blanks. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Blimey !
So much information they did say he worked for the railway at one stage
Is there a site you know of I can research his railway records ?
thank you so much !
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Have you tried the NSW State Records Office? Not all their holdings are listed on their online indexes, as many of their holdings are still being catalogued. I think you may find they have Railway employee records, so perhaps you could make an email enquiry if you cannot locate an online index.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
:) :)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/contact-us
They are very helpful.
Also there's lots of live links at RChat's NSW Resources Board :) here's a link to that board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
Cheers, JM
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"...He arrived in Australia in 1878 "
What is your source for this year please?
Anything here worth a closer look......I cannot see further evidence of this Samuel / Anastasia combination in NSW.
birth
2582 / 1880 Joseph BATES parents Samuel / Anastasia Sydney
2705 / 1882 Herbert J BATES parents Samuel / Anastasia Sydney
death
614 / 1920 Joseph BATES parents Samuel / Anastasia Newtown
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HI
It was Samuel Bates who arrived here by himself and married Martha Turner who he met here not Anastasia
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Hi
This might be the death of Martha.
2092/1930 BATES Martha
Father Aaron
Mother Rebecca
At MARRICKVILLE
A Death notice for Aaron Turner, this Martha's father
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15071622
In 1930 on the Electoral Roll-
Address- Killawera, Horner St. Canterbury
BATES, Samuel. Retired.
BATES, Martha, HD
Sue
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Thanks Sue ,Thats them !!
I'm embarrassed to tell you how long it took me to find out just the basics :-[
Your brilliant !