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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dave taxi on Sunday 21 December 14 17:57 GMT (UK)
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berenice was born on the 21/01/1921 in garndiffaith sth wales she moved to manchester aged about 7 years old and had a baby girl in about 1939 / 1944 ,born out of wedlock , she only lived a year or less. am desperate th find details of her name and where she was buried. i believe it was a paupers grave in manchesters gorton cematry, i want to complete my mothers last wish to find her and plaice flowers from her there.
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May I suggest that you look at the records on FreeBMD. Birth registrations are almost complete for the time period you are searching, whilst death registrations are complete 1930-1949. If you search for both birth and death registrations within the years you think are relevant, you will probably come up with an answer. Birth registrations at this time will give you the mother's maiden name. Burial records for Gorton may be on the burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk website.
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She married in 1940 so presumably the child died before the marriage.
Looking at deaths on freebmd between 1938-1939 there is only one female (Madeline Quinn) and her birth shows a different mothers maiden name. There is a death in 1940 - Teresa Quinn but again her birth shows a different mmn
Have you checked freebmd?
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Can't see a Berenice Quinn birth anywhere.
As you have her birth date can you tell us where it's from.
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Can't see a Berenice Quinn birth anywhere.
She married Broome in 1940 as Berenice M Quinn. www.lancashirebmd.org.uk shows her as Berenice Mark Quinn?? Suspect Mark could be Mary
However - like you - I can't see any birth for her in Wales in 1921. She died in Manchester January 2008 aged 87
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Garndiffaith is three miles north of the town of Pontypool - could this possibly be her? Has there been a name change anywhere? Looks as if she was illegitimate, so possibly her mother married a Quinn?
March quarter 1921
Mark Berenice Mark Pontypool 11a 393
Fits with name on marriage ;)
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I think this must be her
Berenice Mark
mother's name : Mark
Jan-March 1921 Pontypool 11a, 393
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The March qtr 1921 birth ties in with this reply I was just about to post
If she died January 2008 aged 87 and was born in October - she must have been 87 in October 2007 so are you sure she was born 1921?
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Marriage of mother
Marriages Dec 1928
Blodwyn Mark
John Quinn
Manchester S. 8d 328
Which fits with her moving to Manchester aged 7.
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So the illegitimate child who is the subject of the post may not have been born as Quinn
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A possibility but she may have been Blodwyns child
Births June qtr 1936
Mary Quinn mmn Mark Manchester South 8d 249
Deaths June qtr 1936
Mary Quinn age 0 Manchester South 8d 235
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That looks very likely, Carole.
Several possibilities there:
Could the family story have become confused over the years?
Or was she Berenice's child but registered under both names for respectability.
Or could she have been registered as Blodwyn's child even though Berenice had given birth to her?
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There is a possible burial of a Mary Quinn in April 1936 in Southern Cemetery Manchester, it does appear to be a common grave.
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A possibility but she may have been Blodwyns child
Births June qtr 1936
Mary Quinn mmn Mark Manchester South 8d 249
Deaths June qtr 1936
Mary Quinn age 0 Manchester South 8d 235
Could this be a bit more information about that birth from Lancs BMD?
1936
QUINN Mary Manchester Withington Hospital Manchester
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The fact that Berenice was illegitimate and not born as Quinn may not have been known by Dave when he posted.
It would appear that Berenice was his mother so a lot will depend on exactly what information she gave the family about the baby before she died.
Berenice appears to have been under 16yrs old when the child was born as I think she was born in October 1920 - not 1921.
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The 1932 birth would not be to Berenice (b. 1921), so both births to mother Blodwyn?
JUN Q 1932
QUINN Margaret mother MARK Manchester N 8d / 907
JUN Q 1936
QUINN Mary mother MARK Manchester S 8d / 249
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I think Dave is aware that Berenice was born as Mark
See previous post here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=542911.msg4662967#msg4662967
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Well spotted Carole.
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It would have saved a lot of wasted time and effort if we had known the background at the outset ::)
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I think Dave now needs to get Mary's birth certificate, and possibly death certificate, although if the illegitimacy has been covered up in someway it may not help. I cant see any other birth/death that fits.
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Something crossed my mind. I wondered if Berenice gave birth to a stillborn child?
Dave come back and see if can find out that Mary was in fact Blodwyn's child and therefore Berenice's half sister and if you are happy that Mary wasn't the child you were referring to.
If there was a stillbirth the birth records are not online, but we can advise you how to proceed.
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Something crossed my mind. I wondered if Berenice gave birth to a stillborn child?
Dave come back and see if can find out that Mary was in fact Blodwyn's child and therefore Berenice's half sister and if you are happy that Mary wasn't the child you were referring to.
If there was a stillbirth the birth records are not online, but we can advise you how to proceed.
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picture shows berenice broome nee quinn also known as berenice mark quinn at 22 years old holding her daughter, i was informed but its supposed to be in 1940 and she appears to be in uniform, have no idea if its true and no longer can be verified .baby died in its first year i believe after surgery possibly in gorton cemetry in a paupers grave. if she is 22 in picture then its in 1943.
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Berenice married in 1940 so if she was 22 when that photo was taken she had been married for
3 yrs??
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Could it be that rather than being born out of wedlock by mother being unmarried, it was that the unfortunate child was the product of an extra-marital involvement, and the timescale during the War of the husband being abroad meant that there was little or no chance of the child being accepted as the offspring of the husband? That could account for a lot of the secrecy and confusion that appear to surround the origins of the child. Just a theory....
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She looks to have a ring on her right hand but I can't see if she has a wedding ring on :-\
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The big problem is the difficulty in finding a birth and death, it is possible that if Berenice was in the forces the child could have been born somewhere else, but what surname did she register her under?
Dave have you any idea of a Christian name?
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Mmm
Harold J Broome
Mother's Maiden Surname:
Mark
Date of Registration:
Apr-May-Jun 1944
Registration district:
Brighton
Inferred County:
Sussex, Isle of Wight
Volume Number:
2b
Page Number:
300
Harold J Broome
Birth Date:
abt 1944
Date of Registration:
Sep 1944
Age at Death:
0
Registration district:
Manchester
Inferred County:
Lancashire
Volume:
8d
Page:
89
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Dave he's buried at Gorton, search here to find the grave.
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cemeteries/1064/burial_records
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I was just going to post the burial.
Well done for checking that birth and death. I had dismissed it because of the Brighton connection.
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It was only the uniform Berenice was wearing that made me think the birth could be anywhere, and luckily Broome is easy to search.
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Really good find but Dave says the child was a girl ??
Dave - was Edwin Broome previously married? There are 2 deaths in Lancashire - one in 1959 born 1893 and another in 1980 b 15.11.1919. The 1893 Edwin was born in Shropshire and the 1919 in Prestwich
The obit for Berenice mentions her as the "loving mother" of 2 sons and a deceased son (not Harold) but I cannot find births for any with a mothers maiden name of Mark or Quinn
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Really good find but Dave says the child was a girl ??
Dave - was Edwin Broome previously married? There are 2 deaths in Lancashire - one in 1959 born 1893 and another in 1980 b 15.11.1919. The 1893 Edwin was born in Shropshire and the 1919 in Prestwich
The obit for Berenice mentions her as the "loving mother" of 2 sons and a deceased son (not Harold) but I cannot find births for any with a mothers maiden name of Mark or Quinn
edwin broome died about march 1980, bernice broome died 25 jan 2008
blodwyn heathcote was quinn nee mark died april 27 1985
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Really good find but Dave says the child was a girl ??
Dave - was Edwin Broome previously married? There are 2 deaths in Lancashire - one in 1959 born 1893 and another in 1980 b 15.11.1919. The 1893 Edwin was born in Shropshire and the 1919 in Prestwich
The obit for Berenice mentions her as the "loving mother" of 2 sons and a deceased son (not Harold) but I cannot find births for any with a mothers maiden name of Mark or Quinn
not sure the sex of berenice broomes my mother baby who died it was never spoke about.
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not sure the sex of berenice broomes my mother baby who died it was never spoke about.
But you said on your first post
had a baby girl in about 1939 / 1944 ,born out of wedlock , she only lived a year or less. am desperate th find details of her name and where she was buried
Are you now saying you don't know the sex of the baby?
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first of all i must congratulate all who have responded to the search for my post for locating berenice broomes son . yes its a son not a daughter, again thankyou, i am sorry for any confusion with my information given to you, after having a serious accident 2 years ago my health and memory have been affected, and i have been forced to retire early. so again i am sorry about any wasted time. harold j broome is my brother its been confirmed and i am awaiting certificates to be delivered. and he is buried in gorton cemetry manchester. and i will scatter my mothers ashes on the plot. together again, THANKYOU.
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Dave So pleased you are sorted. At last your mother and Harold will be back together.
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No worries Dave, I'm glad that jaywit thought out of the box and found that birth and death. Just shows how bits of the puzzle gradually fit together.
I'm so pleased that you can now carry out your mother's wishes.
Have a good Christmas.
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I am so glad that it is sorted for you Dave.
All good wishes
Heywood
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Hi Dave
It all came good in the end and we got the result you wanted. Please let us know the details from Harold's birth cert when it arrives as it will be interesting to see if Edwin is named as his father.
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as far as i am aware mam and dad seperated for approx 2 years , during which time mam had a relationship with a canadian soldier, and after he was sent home to canada. ( she never saw or heard from him again) . dad was a hard lined victorian. as far as i know they never tried for any more children, and after mam was operated on she had to have her womb removed. it was forbiden ever to mentioned again , as i was new born dad saw me as a replacement for mams lost baby, my childhood was loving off mam but harsh off dad , but thats all in the past now.
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as far as i am aware mam and dad seperated for approx 2 years , during which time mam had a relationship with a canadian soldier, and after he was sent home to canada. ( she never saw or heard from him again) . dad was a hard lined victorian. as far as i know they never tried for any more children, and after mam was operated on she had to have her womb removed. it was forbiden ever to mentioned again , as i was new born dad saw me as a replacement for mams lost baby, my childhood was loving off mam but harsh off dad , but thats all in the past now.
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as far as i am aware mam and dad seperated for approx 2 years , during which time mam had a relationship with a canadian soldier, and after he was sent home to canada. ( she never saw or heard from him again) . dad was a hard lined victorian. as far as i know they never tried for any more children, and after mam was operated on she had to have her womb removed. it was forbiden ever to mentioned again , as i was new born dad saw me as a replacement for mams lost baby, my childhood was loving off mam but harsh off dad , but thats all in the past now.
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[harold john broomes birth certificate posted as promised will post death certificate when recieved.
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haroldjamesbroomes birth/death certificatesandgravestoneingoetoncemetry manchester.
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harold james broomes birth/death certificates and gravestone in gorton cemetery manchester.
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Hi Dave
Thanks for the update. Although "she" turned out to be a he at least you can now fulfil your mums last wish and put flowers on his grave.