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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Gill S on Tuesday 16 December 14 03:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for information on the Smyth / Smythe family in England, specifically Victor. He married my great aunt Grace Escott in 1926. He was a well known horse trainer prior to 1960. I think he had a son Paul Caithness Smyth but I don't have any details for him. I would appreciate any help in tracing living relatives. I'm also trying to find information the Escott family. They were also involved with racing/ training horses. :D
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I can see that Grace Married Victor H Smyth in 1926 ... registered at Steyning,Sussex. We are not allowed to post details of living people on the forum....so you would need to correspond by private message re any details of living descendants.
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I have sent you a pm ;)
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Graces father was Harry Escott,,,a well known horse trainer...lots of references to him on google. Are you looking to also trace the family back ?
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I think Harry's father was Richard and there is a hint that he went AWOL from the Marine and this is possibly why birth certificates can't be found for Harry and his sister Ellen. Ellen emigrated to Vancouver, Canada. Richard Escort was a gunner at Portsmouth and was married to Sarah Gill. Harry Cecil Escort (Harry's son) had a son as well called Harry Hector Pettit Escott but I think he was born in South Africa as there is a baptism certificate that I found online (Cape Town I think).
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Not sure if you already have these details-
Nellie May Amey (daughter of Ellen Escott & Albert Andrews) d.1973
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLBN-6MG
Nellie's marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDZ1-J6K
Her brother Harry Richard Escott Andrews d.1981
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FL15-SG5
Their sister Mabel's marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JD8J-4S3
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Marriage of Grace Escott (groom Victor H. J. Smyth)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZT-JXXS
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I only have the marriage between Victor and Grace. Thanks for the extra information. Much appreciated :)
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Harry Cecil Escott married in Durban South Africa in 1912
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCP-B1P
Son Harry baptised 1918 Cape of Good Hope (this may be the record you'd seen?)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-5G3B
Harry Cecil Escott in 1911 census in England (must have gone to South Africa shortly after)- birthplace given as Lewes, Sussex (c1885)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BR-ZL2
Harry in 1901 census (same birthplace and approx. birth year given)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJ6-9XS
1891 also matches https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:48J1-6T2
Based on all of the above this is likely Harry's birth registration
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2XGK-F14
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Harry Escott married 1884 Annie Pettiy [Pettit]
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2DVR-9Z3
Census records show birthplace as Blandford, Dorset (c1859). Harry died 23 Mar.1948 and residence as 39 Walsingham Rd., Hove, Sussex.
There are LOTS of family trees online (although any information found in them would need to be verified as online trees can be notorious for errors)
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A very big thank you for all this information. I've been searching and running around in circles trying to find information. I can now see where Harry Hector Pettit Escott gets his middle name from - his grandmother Annie Pettit. South African records are not so easy to find online but with all the difficulties in South Africa some people who came from England, went back so it's quite possible that Harry Hector went back with his family. My mother was only 5 when her mother Joan Mary Escott (married name Koers) passed away and I never had the chance to know who were they all were. I will keep searching :)
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I've got some Escotts in my family line ... and they are VERY slippery customers who take a LOT of tying down!!
Here is what I have, from my family narrative, on my great x4 grandfather Thomas Escott (much of which is still fairly conjectural). The narrative itself (which is in a word document) is fully referenced, but the footnotes do not copy-and-paste into this MB. If you think this could be part of your family too, and would like to have the full text with footnotes, PM me with your e-mail address and I will send it to you as a Word document.
Thomas Escott
It appears probable that Thomas Escott, the father of Elizabeth Spooner (nee Escott) was born in about 1808 in Somerset; and I have identified three plausible baptism records which might be his. These are:
1. Thomas Escott, son of Isaac and Joanna, baptised in Nettlecombe on 6 March 1803
2. Thomas Escott, son of Hugh and Margaret, baptised in Dunster on 17 December 1805
3. Thomas Escott, son of Richard and Elizabeth, baptised in Crowcombe on 3 August
1806
Of these three, it is possible to eliminate the second, as he married Elizabeth Bruford in St Decumens on 24 August 1825 , and it appears from the baptismal records of their children Isaac Winpenny Escott (baptised in Timberscombe on 28 January 1827 ), Elizabeth Winpenny Escott (baptised in West Monkton, age 5, on 10 September 1833 ) and Sarah Escott (baptised in West Monkton, age 3, on 10 September 1833 ) that this Thomas Escott was a baker / confectioner; whereas we know that my great x4 grandfather Thomas Escott was a shoe maker.
That does not, however, mean that my great x4 grandfather must necessarily have been one of the other two Thomas Escotts identified above. They are the only two showing up on the digital searchable records to which I have access – but research at the Somerset record office might yet identify further potential candidates.
I strongly suspect that my great x4 grandfather Thomas Escott was the Thomas Escott, Cordwainer of Tancred Street, Somerset who was married to Ann Escott. I have not located any record of this marriage (so I do not know Ann’s maiden name), but it would appear that they had at least three children:
F27A: Eliza Escott, born in 1818 and baptised on 6 July 1834 in Taunton
F27B: Jane Escott, born in 1821 and baptised in Taunton on 6 July 1834
E14: Elizabeth Escott, born about 1830, probably in Taunton
By 1843 Ann had died, Thomas had moved to London (although possibly these events took place in the opposite order) and was living at 55 Baldwins Gardens Holborn, and he had a new wife Elizabeth Escott (nee Hollande). The census entries suggest variously that she was born in either Islington or Stepney. I have been unable to find any Elizabeth Holland baptised in Islington who fits the bill, but Stepney provides two plausible candidates: Elizabeth Holland, daughter of Elisha (a mariner) and Mary of John Street, St George in the East, who was born on 17 August 1817 and baptised at St George in the East, Stepney on 3 September 1817 ; and Betty Sarah Holland, daughter of Joseph (a salesman) and Ann of Ratcliff, who was born on 23 June 1811 and baptised at St Dunstan, Stepney on 20 October 1811 .
It is possible that the relevant marriage is that of Thomas Escott to Elizabeth Stone in 1842; however, for this to be so Elizabeth Stone would have to have been a widow, since the birth certificate of Thomas and Elizabeth’s first child gives her maiden name as Hollande. I have not yet managed to find any evidence for this; but it may be worth obtaining this marriage certificate all the same since if it is the correct marriage then it should confirm the identity of Thomas Escott’s father.
Thomas and Ann Escott had at least five further children:
F27d: Walter Henry Escott, born at 55 Baldwins Gardens, Holborn on 29 October 1843
F27e: Henry Vowles Escott, born in Lambeth in 1847
F27f: Frances Eve Escott, born in Islington in 1848
F27g: Arthur George Adam Escott, born in Islington in 1851
F27h: George Charles Escott, born in Lambeth in 1855
It is evident from the children’s places of birth that Thomas and Elizabeth Escott moved around a bit. It also appears probable that they had further children in the 9 year interval between 1834 and 1843, and I have identified eight further children who might have been theirs:
1: Richard Jenkins Escott, born in Shoreditch in 1837
2-4: Triplets Emma, Margaret and Maria Escott, born and died in Bethnal Green in 1838
5. Rose Escott, born in West London in 1839
6. Harriet Escott, born in Stepney in 1840
7. Rhoda Ide Escott, born in West London in 1841
8. Henry Escott, born in Marylebone in 1843
It is highly unlikely that all of these are Thomas and Elizabeth’s children; but equally, it seems reasonably likely that at least some of them may be. It would be necessary to invest in a lot of certificates to find out which, however; and this is not a priority. In theory it should be possible to rule out some of these children (unless they all “belong”), by tracing them in the 1841 and/or 1851 censuses; but I have tried this, and failed to find any of them – so I fear that it will be necessary to invest in a few certificates to say for certain whether all of them were or were not the children of my great x4 grandparents Thomas and Elizabeth Escott.
[continues ... ]
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[... continued]
I have been unable to identify my great x4 grandfather Thomas Escott and his family in the 1841 or 1851 censuses. It is evident from the birth certificate of Walter Henry Escott that in October 1843 Thomas Escott was a shoe maker living at 53 Baldwins Gardens ; and we catch a further brief glimpse of him when his daughter Elizabeth married the widower Edgar Spooner in Clerkenwell on 11 June 1849 , and Elizabeths’ father is named as Thomas Escott, Shoe Maker. Investing in further certificates might help to fill in the details for these missing years. Our next sighting of him in the census, however, is not until the 1861 census.
In the 1861 census we see 53 year old Thomas Escott, a Boot & Shoe Maker born in Taunton, Somerset, living at 1a Cloudesley Place, Islington with his 50 year old wife Elizabeth Escott, his 17 year old son Walter (whose occupation is listed as Porter), his 14 year old son Henry (whose occupation is listed as Errand Boy), his 12 year old daughter Fanny, his 10 year old son Arthur and his 6 year old son George. Fanny, Arthur and George are all listed as Scholars . Apart from Thomas, everyone in the household is said to have been born in Islington.
In the 1871 census, we see 65 year old Thomas Escott, a Bootmaker born in Somersetshire, Bath still living at Cloudesley Place, Islington, Finsbury along with his 59 year old wife Elizabeth, his 20 year old son Arthur (whose occupation is listed as Blacksmith) and his 16 year old son George (whose occupation is listed as Tea Warehouse Boy). Elizabeth is said to have been born in Middlesex, Stepney and both of the sons who are still living at home are said to have been born in Middlesex, Islington .
Thomas Escott was widowed for a second time when Elizabeth Escott died late in 1874 , and in the 1881 census we see Thomas Escott, Widower, 79, a Shoemaker Unemployed born in Bath, Somerset living by himself at 14 Denmark Grove, Islington .
It appears as though my great x4 grandfather lived long enough that he ought to appear on the 1891 census; but I have been unable to find him.
Thomas Escott, age 87, died in Islington late in 1891 . He does not appear to have left a will, or indeed to have had an estate which required a Grant of Letters of Administration .
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Hi,
This looks like the family in 1851,
HO107/1499 f.402 p.23 Islington
* 1 Litterton Terrace
Thomas Head 42 Shoe Maker Somerset Taunton
Elizabeth Wife 40 Middlesex Stepney
Joseph Son 20 " " " Clerkenwell
John Son 17 " " " "
Jesse Daur 15 " Binder " St Andrews
Walter Son 7 Scholar " "
Henry Son 4 " " "
Frances Daur 2 " Islington
Adam Son 3 Days "
Edith Stevens Neice 15 Shoe Binder " Clerkenwell
*There is no address next to their name but I've given the one on the previous page as they seem to be sharing no.1 with other families, the houseafter their listing is no.2
The image does say Adam so I think it must be Arthur George Adams ESCOTT.
Regards,
Daisy
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Daisypetal - a BIG thank you. That does indeed look like the family. Well done you for uncovering them!
Hmmm ... Joseph, John and Jesse are all new great x4 uncles that I was previously unaware of - I shall have to amend my text, and it may be that I can find some baptisms fro them which will tell me a bit more.
Edith Stevens may also help me on this one.
GREAT find. Thank you so much. Just what I needed for Christmas :)
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Daisy -
I am unable to replicate your search!
I use FindMyPast, which is happy with Piece 1499, but denies any results for Piece 1499 Folio 402.
Could you have mis-transcribed the Folio number?
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Hi,
I'm pleased that I helped :)
I'm using Ancestry and the folio and page number are correct. I've tried using FindMyPast and you're right it doesn't come up. There seems to be a gap between folios 387 and 439, unfortunately they seem to be missing at FindMyPast.
Daisy
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How odd.
Oh well - no matter. You've given me all the details so I'll import them into my family narrative.
I wonder how many of my other missing census entries are due to gaps in the FindMyPast coverage ...
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Have you seen this info about missing pages?
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/census-for-england-wales-and-scotland-missing-pieces
It doesn't mention their 1851 Islington problem though.
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Hi I am a direct descendant of Harry Escott, he would have been my great granddad. His daughter Daisy married William George Horton and they were my father's parents, my grandparents. Grace Escott was her sister and therefore my Great aunt too. I did meet her on at least one occasion as a small child and I'm sure I have lots of photos of her and her husband and children. My father and grandfather were both photographers. I visited the Escott grave only yesterday in Lewes as it would have been my dad's 95th birthday, so I went to lay flowers. I am new to this site but was doing a search as I do often for hits on the name. My father was a very late started to parenthood and as such we are much younger by a good generation than we are expected to be, if that makes sense. Perhaps we can swap notes? There is also a connection to the Jennings family who are also to this day still involved with Horses and very well known
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Cherry ...
Is your great grandfather Harry Escott the Henry Escott that I have born in Marylebone in 1843??
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I don't think so. I thought he was born in lewes though I'm not currently on ancestry so I can't check my history. He was married to Julia and had William, Anthony, Grace, Daisy, Mabel (think that's right). He was a very successful horse trainer who had grand national and Paris steeplechase winners. The two boys were successful jockies although William died in Paris 1919 following an accident. Mabel married into the Jennings family and they have their own history.
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Hi, my great great grandfather was Harry Escott (the horse trainer). My grandmother died when she was very young so I never had the opportunity to get to know the family at all. Her father, Harry Cecil Escott was Harry Escott's son. Harry Cecil's siblings were the ones you have mentioned. I think we are connected to the same family. I have had no access to any photographs and it has been a battle to find information on my family. I would love to know more. I will look for my notes tomorrow to see if the information we both have (I think you have much more) connects. I'm looking forward to hearing more about my family. Are you in the UK?
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Here are my Somerset Escott's, just in case you can tie in with them further back in time.
William Escott
George Escott 1719-1764 = Jane Pine 1719-1763
Samuel Escott (Dulverton) 1752-1826 = Ann Greenslade 1759-1808
Thomas Greenslade Escott (Dulverton)1781-1855 = Mary Ann
John Escott 1811 (Withycombe, Somerset)-1866 = Susanna 1811-1867
Francis Escott 1830 (Withycombe Somerset) = Harriet Bendle
Harriet Escott 1856 (my Gt Grandmother) = James Baker 1854
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Re Harry ESCOTT, Lewes racehorse trainer, 1856-1948.
Always called Harry ESCOTT during his very successful life in Lewes (from before 1881 to his retirement in 1925), first at Hillside and then at Astley House stables. Born Hull (1881) or Blandford, Dorset (1891-1911). Retired to Hove, where he died in 1948. One son by his first marriage to Annie PETTITT. Two more sons and three daughters by his second marriage to Julia nee GEBBIE (British subject born in Paris).
However, in 1871 a stable lad called Harry HISCOCK aged 14 in the Woodyates yard of trainer William DAY.
Birth reg Harry HISCOCK Jun quarter 1856, Blandford reg dist, mother's maiden name HUNT. Bapt Oct 1857 at Blandford aged 1, same name. With his parents in Blandford 1861; left the family by 1871. Youngest son of the family of Richard HISCOCK and Maria HUNT who married at Blandford on 11 Jan 1835.
Seems more convincing if you say "HISCOCK", dropping the H, in a Sussex accent, in which all the emphasis is on the first syllable, the rest of the name mumbled.
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That's a really interesting insight, Fairmeadow ... I've always found that trying to pronounce things in the local accent and seeing how they come out is a useful way of attacking some of the more intractible brick walls ...