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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: New Zealander on Monday 01 December 14 07:28 GMT (UK)
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I have reached a brick wall. Can anyone assist please?
Mary Wild (born c. 1863) was married to Joseph Vincent on 06.04.1880. They had 5 children between 1881 and 1887 before they went their separate ways.
Mary Vincent appeared to spend a great part of her life in the Timaru / Waimate area in Sth Canterbury. This from Papers Past and various court appearances from the late 1880's until 1900.
Joseph Vincent died on 23.03.1936 and is interred in the Karoro Cemetery, Greymouth.
I have been unable to locate a death or burial record for Mary Vincent. Possibly she may have taken the name of Elizabeth Mary Vincent (from St John's Baptism records Christchurch dated 02 Nov 1902).
I have located a death record from BDM Online for Elizabeth Mary Vincent on 09.09.1951 aged 84 years. This would mean a date of birth of 1867.
Can anyone assist please with the cemetery / burial location of this 1951 death. It does not appear on the Burial Locator or in the Timaru, Waimate or Ashburton Cemeteries.
Any assistance would be much appreciated.
Thank you
Alex G
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Did she re-marry? A Mary Vincent married a William Morris in 1901, (1901/6056)
Good luck with your search.
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I have located a death record from BDM Online for Elizabeth Mary Vincent on 09.09.1951 aged 84 years. This would mean a date of birth of 1867.
Can anyone assist please with the cemetery / burial location of this 1951 death.
Hi Alex
Working from electoral rolls rather than burial locator ... the following lady (who appears to be same), was buried at Karori Cemetery in Wellington.
Karori Cemetery
VINCENT - Elizabeth Mary - aged 84 years
Widow
Buried: 11/7/1951 (11 July 1951)
Roman Catholic -- Plot 177y
http://wellington.govt.nz
~ Lu
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I have been unable to locate a death or burial record for Mary Vincent. Possibly she may have taken the name of Elizabeth Mary Vincent (from St John's Baptism records Christchurch dated 02 Nov 1902).
Hi Alex
Just in case we can help further ... can you explain the significance of the baptism record above ? ;)
~ Lu
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Mary Vincent appeared to spend a great part of her life in the Timaru / Waimate area in Sth Canterbury. This from Papers Past and various court appearances from the late 1880's until 1900.
Hi Alex
Were Mary's children in her custody, do you know ?
I see her daughter married in Christchurch, and sons were maybe ?? in the Dunedin area at times ?
Also ... is the following another (later) child of Mary ??
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Oamaru Mail" - 28 September 1900 - page 1 -- Waimate Notes
(Mary) VINCENT v. (Daniel) LOW - paternity case
... Mary VINCENT married woman, living apart from her husband...
[Child was Alice VINCENT b. 11 July 1900. Death: ALICE HOPKINSON - dob - 11 July 1900 -- buried at Temuka Cemetery. ]
~ Lu
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Greetings All .. thank you for your interest.
The children of Joseph and Mary Vincent did end up in an Industrial School. From the Christchurch City Library and St John (Church?) Baptism records "Elizabeth Mary Vincent born 11.01.1882, Baptised 02.11.1902, daughter of Joseph , labourer and Elizabeth Mary of Waimate". Information some years old passed to me by a family member.
I have another record from Papers Past that three of the Vincent children were in the Burnham Industrial School.
Of interest here .. has Mary adopted or taken the extra name of Elizabeth?
Yes there was a paternity case in 1900 Mary Vincent v Daniel Low. He was a railway employee. The child was daughter Alice.
I have no knowledge if Mary Vincent ever re-married. In fact I have no other record of her after the 1900 Paternity case v Daniel Low.
Joseph Vincent and Mary Vincent appear to have gone their separate ways after the birth of their last child in 1887.
From Papers Past / Police Gazette there is a report from 07.10.1891 that Joseph Vincent was locked up at Bluff for failing to comply with an order from the Waimate Magistrates Court of 7s 6d a week towards the maintenance of his children. He had being hiding out on Stewart Island !! Vincent had last been heard from in October 1890 when discharged from the Invercargill Gaol.
Joseph Vincent died on 23.03.1936 in Greymouth. His Death Cert records that there was no widow. I have no knowledge if there was ever a divorce (seems unlikely) between the two or if Mary Vincent ever re-married (given her chequered past possible with Mary I guess).
Alex :)
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Hi Lu
To confirm the Karori Cemetery Burial record in Wellington for Elizabeth Mary Vincent on 11.07.1951. This can be discounted.
By searching through all the Vincent burial records for the cemetery I have found her husband "Thos Vincent" buried on 09.06.1936 aged 67 years in the same plot 177Y.
Alex
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Hi Alex,
Maybe Mary took the name of LOW??
Perhaps the death of a Mary LOW in 1921, aged 57 years could be explored? [Date of birth therefore about 1864].
Minniehaha.
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Minnie
Thank you for your interest.
I think you are right that Mary Vincent has re-married or otherwise taken another name. Looking at the Mary Low you identified I do not believe it would be my person.
This Mary Low was 57 years of age, a native of Auckland and had been in New Zealand for 40 years at time of death. This meant she was 17 years of age when she arrived in New Zealand in 1881. On top of this she is interred with 5 other persons with the same surname .. perhaps a family?
It is believed Mary Vincent arrived in NZ in 1874 at Lyttleton aged 11 years.
Will just have to keep looking.
Alex
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Mary Vincent .. a question if someone could assist please?
It is reported in the Timaru Herald newspaper (Papers Past) on 14th February 1900:-
A middle aged woman named Mary Vincent of Waimate was charged with vagrancy at the Magistrates Court on Monday and was discharged at the request of Captain MaCaulay of the Salvation Army who would undertook to try to get her admitted into the Army's Home at Christchurch".
What records do the Salvation Army keep? When and where are these records available? Would they cover the period around 1900?
Many thanks
Alex G :)
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Hi Alex,
According to a tree on Ancestry, the death date was 1 July 1951, aged 88 years. no location mentioned, no remarriage mentioned, just shown as Mary. Birth 1863 Wiltshire, England. Joseph is shown as dying on 14 Sep 1911 . Marriage 6 April 1880 - which you stated above.
Looks like there is another researcher interested as they have the paternity case in it, unfortunately it is a Private tree.
Was one of the sons named after the father?
Cheers
KHP
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I am guessing that the lady Lu found in Reply #2 is your lass .... very easy to transcribe an "3" for an "8" if not clear, making it 1867 and not 1863. The Joseph Vincent who died in 1911 is also at Karori and is also a Roman Catholic. He also has a Probate held at Wellington.
Cheers
KHP
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Alex,
There is a Probate held at Christchurch Archives for an Eliza Vincent, of Timaru, 1951. This could explain the gap between the death date and burial date. Might be worth looking at.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi all
From an earlier reply .. Yes there was a paternity case in 1900 Mary Vincent v Daniel Low. He was a railway employee. The child was daughter Alice. Can certainly rule out the Karori / Wellington death and burial.
I had another look at a number of public trees on Ancestry earlier today and was appalled at the mis-information and errors with regard Mary and Joseph Vincent.
From the Timaru Herald newspaper (Papers Past) 13th March 1886 there is a report from the Waimate Magistrates Court that clearly indicates that Joseph had deserted his family by 1886.
I had an earlier post where I was searching for William H Vincent and his brother Joseph Vincent (husband of Mary Vincent) :-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685789.msg5303262#msg5303262
I am not sure this will advance the search for Mary Vincent or confuse it more !!
Alex G ???
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Oh well, my little search can go to the elimination scrap heap ;D
You sure do have some curly ones Alex :D
Cheers
KHP
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HI KHP
Yes I have seen that Probate for Eliza Vincent died Timaru 1951.
The death and burial is easily found online in the Timaru Cemetery. I may be wrong but doesn't appear to be my person. This lady died aged 98 years which makes her date of birth 1853.
The Mary Vincent I am looking for was born 1863.
Perhaps the Probate in Christchurch might assist... which I have never seen yet. I will consider a separate post to see if anyone is visiting CH Ch Archives NZ.
Alex G
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KHP
Yep for sure it is a difficult one .. hence so much mis-information out there I guess. No one has been bothered previously to eliminate fact from fiction.
I did locate husband Joseph eventually in Greymouth and have his Death Cert as well to prove it.
Alex G ;D
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This is were you do the weeding (much better than the garden weeds ;D) with the info we give on here. Perhaps she isn't ready to be found yet.
Cheers
KHP
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HI KHP
Yes I have seen that Probate for Eliza Vincent died Timaru 1951.
The death and burial is easily found online in the Timaru Cemetery. I may be wrong but doesn't appear to be my person. This lady died aged 98 years which makes her date of birth 1853.
Hi Alex
The burial of Eliza VINCENT at Timaru Cemetery, has the wrong year entered on the cemetery database > 22 June 1950.
The accompanying headstone photo reveals her date of death to have been 20 June 1951.
Further searches show this Eliza (nee PEASE) was the wife of Alfred VINCENT (m. 1876) ... there were numerous children of the union (one of whom was also Eliza VINCENT, bc 1885).
Several online trees state that Eliza PEASE or PEACE, was born in Yorkshire, ENG, 1853.
~ Lu
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Lu
Thank you.
Have also e mailed the Waimate Museum to see what they might have on their files.
Alex G :)
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Hi Alex
* Do you know the name of the mother of Mary VINCENT (nee WILD) ??
In the "Timaru Herald" article you referred to (13 March 1886), Mary's mother is present in Court. She is named as "Mrs WIST" (this may of course be a spelling error ??)
Moving forward to ...
"Timaru Herald" - 17 February 1900 - Town and County
In the case of Mary VINCENT (who was without means of support ... and had been charged earlier
on 13 or 14 February, 1900), the article goes on to say ...
... the mother of the defendant [Mary VINCENT] attended [the Court hearing] and offered to take charge of her daughter.
~ Lu
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... the "Mrs WIST" referred to in the March 1886 Court case, said she had "eight children of her own" to take care of - the reason she was unable to continue caring for her grandchildren (ie. Mary and Joseph VINCENT's children.)
So as Mary VINCENT's mother is seemingly still around in 1900, (and there are probably siblings or step-siblings of Mary), maybe it's worth trying to find these people ?? - (who may in turn lead to finding out what happened to Mary ? )
~ Lu
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It's okay Alex, I've since found the mother of Mary VINCENT. Just following up on some other items.
~ Lu
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Alex ... there's this burial at Waimate Cemetery ???
Mary VINCENT
Waimate Old Cemetery - Plot 000192 - Free Ground
Died : 18 January 1895
[Note: This death is not coming up on NZ BDM online)
As we have already seen, there are errors in some (online) cemetery records. ;D
I realise you have other information that perhaps conflicts with your Mary VINCENT having died before 1900, however, I think it's worth contacting the WDC to see if they have other info for this Mary VINCENT burial.
~ Lu
Edited to add: Just ignore above in the meantime ... I've since come across some new information.
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Hi Alex
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Timaru Herald" - 31 May 1886 - Magistrate's Court
Further on Joseph VINCENT and testimony from Charlotte WILD (Mary's mother).
Had already found the mother's burial at Waimate Cemetery - d. 20 May 1920 aged 82 years.
~ Lu
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If you go (again) to FamilySearch website, you can read the following will >
Charlotte WILD - Waimate - 1920 - widow
Her will was dated 24 April 1912 and it named all of her living children.
There was also a codicil dated 6 November 1917 which sought to re-direct her earlier bequests to three of her children. (Seems to have been the result of the death of a son (or grandson ?) named Harvey and his legacy was transferred to three of Charlotte's other children).
The last of the children named in the Will of Charlotte WILD, widow of Waimate is
Mary GRAY (the wife of Robert GRAY)
Am supposing then that this Mary GRAY is the daughter formerly married to VINCENT ??
[Think there may be another twist to this Mary however, but I'm still investigating that. ;) ]
~ Lu
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You might like to look over NZ BDM deaths for a Mary GRAY ?
The only one I could find that came close in age was >
1936 - GRAY - Mary - 75 years (bc 1861) ???
Electoral roll searches are not helping me much at this stage.
~ Lu
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(Seems to have been the result of the death of a son (or grandson ?) named Harvey
~ Lu
He was a son of Charlotte.
WW1 Deaths 1914-1921
Name : WILD Harvey
Date : 12 Oct 1917
Reference : 24259
Rank : Private
Force : CIR
Fate : KIA
Place : France
Relation : Son of the late William and Charlotte Wild.
Native of Waimate, Timaru.
Cemetery : BELGIUM - TYNE COT CEMETERY
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks for that KHP. :) (My eyeballs are just about dropping out at present, with all the "looking" ) ;D
~ Lu
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Alex ... the will of Charlotte's husband, is also available at FamilySearch.
It's indexed as "William WILDS" (and in fact that is how surname is spelled on all the documents on Probate file.)
William WILDS - Timaru - 1911
Will names all his children - including Mary GRAY (so we know she had that name at the time of her father's death in 1910 (I think -- will check that).
~ Lu
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Alex ... in the course of looking further for Mary GRAY, I went in search of her husband, Robert GRAY.
NZ Marriages turned up a Robert GRAY who married a "Mary MORRIS" in 1908.
I discounted that firstly, and continued seeking out "Mary MORRIS".
Somewhat surprisingly, one of the first items which popped up on PapersPast, was a Court case at Waimate in 1903 - labelled as WILD v. G. CLARK ... a paternity case, in which the mother of the child was stated to be "Mary MORRIS".
"Timaru Herald" - 13 March 1903 - Magisterial - page 4 -- Waimate
also "Oamaru Mail" - same date - page 1 -- SM Court Waimate
Evidence had been presented to the Court earlier, in February 1903.
Part of the following article is very faint [comes up under a search on "WILD" -]
"Oamaru Mail" - 27 February 1903 -- SM Court, Waimate - page 4
Charlotte WILD v. George CLARK ...a paternity case [brought by the child's grandparents, Charlotte and William WILD] ... child's mother [not named] is at present in a hospital in Christchurch.
Case adjourned to 12th March.
Also an article in "Timaru Herald" - 27 February 1903 - Magisterial ... which has less information.
~ Lu
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So, it would seem that we are now looking for Mary VINCENT under the name of Mary GRAY. ??
Incidentally, I haven't spotted a "divorce" for Mary / Joseph VINCENT :
The 1908 marriage of Mary MORRIS to Robert GRAY looks a distinct possibility [so maybe it's a case of Mary VINCENT marrying again under a different surname. ]
~ Lu
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For elimination or not .... on the Index there is a Robert Gray with a date of 3 July 1911, Dunedin. I am guessing it could be a death certificate. Perhaps checking if he appears after 1911 on the E/R?
Cheers
KHP
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Mmm ... have just found this one ???
Bromley Cemetery - Christchurch
Mary GRAY - widow
Died: 13 July 1936 - aged 73 years -- bc 1863
Edited to add: 53 years in NZ (arr. c. 1883) ??
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You might like to look over NZ BDM deaths for a Mary GRAY ?
The only one I could find that came close in age was >
1936 - GRAY - Mary - 75 years (bc 1861) ???
Electoral roll searches are not helping me much at this stage.
~ Lu
So the Mary GRAY at Bromley Cem. is the same as above on NZ BDM.
Cemetery record shows as as 73.
Mary VINCENT and "Mary MORRIS" both spent time in Christchurch.
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Looking like emmygee's suggestion of a marriage to a William Morris back in 1901 is probably right.
So we could have:
1901: Mary Vincent marries William Morris
1903: paternity case brought by Charlotte Wild about the child of Mary Morris - father George Clark? (Child listed as 5 1/2 years old in Oamaru Mail article)
1908: Mary Morris m. Robert Gray
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Good Morning
To Lu, KHP, Jorose, and Emmygee
Thank you so much for your interest and work to trace Mary Vincent / Gray / Morris / Wild. I do hope that i have read this correctly ? It does seem that our Mary did not care too much for divorce before marrying again ???
I shall go and check the records and various data bases that has been turned up on this post.
Again I do thank all you sincerely.
Alex G
P.S. If I can do anything for you down south or in Dunedin please let me know.
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To the best of my knowledge the only place I know where divorce records are likely to be found in the public domain are Archives New Zealand.
With that in mind I can see no divorce record for Mary Gray, Mary Morris or Mary Vincent.
It does seem very likely from all the evidence that Mary Gray died on 13.07.1936 and is interred in the Bromley Cemetery, Christchurch and have requested a death printout from BDM Online to satisfy my curiosity.
Alex G
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In looking for William Morris I found this one:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19040219.2.10&srpos=13&e=--1900---1908--100-CHP-1-byDA---2William+Morris--
Sadly his wife is not named. She was living at Fairlie (a funeral notice for him suggests his family were from there as well), so right-ish area.
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JoRose
Thank you for that appreciated.
I went looking for a Coroners / Inquest file at Archway .. there is nothing .. but found a Probate for William Morris dated 1904.
I wonder?
Alex G
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In looking for William Morris I found this one:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19040219.2.10&srpos=13&e=--1900---1908--100-CHP-1-byDA---2William+Morris--
Sadly his wife is not named. She was living at Fairlie (a funeral notice for him suggests his family were from there as well), so right-ish area.
Hi ... had already checked out this man. He is buried with an infant son at Fairlie.
His wife was Hilda (nee CEDERMAN) - they'd married in 1900.
~ Lu
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Hi Alex ... just incidentally ...
The child who was the subject of the 1903 paternity case, appears to have been >
NZ Birth
1898/14305 - VINCENT - Katie [D.o.b. deduced from birth index = 13 December 1897 ]
Mother: Mary Father: Not named
"Timaru Herald" - 27 February 1903 - page 3 - Magisterial
WILD v. George CLARK .... child aged 5 years, 3 months ...
~ Lu
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Lu
Thank you again for your time.
Have found no probates for Joseph Vincent, William Morris, Robert Gray or any variations of Mary's name at Archives NZ or Family Search.
Off now to start trawling through Electoral Rolls on Ancestry.
Alex :)
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Good Evening Everyone
From a Death Printout I can confirm that I have the correct Mary Wild died 13.07.1936 and interred in the Bromley Cemetery, Christchurch.
She died a widow aged 75 years the cause of death acute alcoholisim and cerebral thrombosis. Very sad.
Appreciate the help and assistance, thank you.
Alex G :)
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Glad you found her Alex, and she can now be laid to rest and you can now go on your next hunt :D
Cheers
KHP
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Pleased to learn the outcome Alex. :) Yes, poor Mary ... so very sad.
~ Lu
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KHP and Lu
Already on my next "hunt".
Looking for Mary's brother in law .. in fact have never stopped .. William Henry Vincent :D
Alex G :)
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Congratulations on finding her, Alex. :) :)
Spades
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HI All,
This is an old thread, however I am attempting to trace an ancestor. I am new to the whole research thing, but have managed to Confirm that my Great Great Grandfather Geroge Vincent was also one of Mary Wilds Children. Born 1891 in Waimate, died 14/10/1929. I was hoping to maybe link him to either George Clark or Daniel Low but the years dont seem to be right. Just thought I would ask the question if anyone had any other information on George? His birthdate is after the apparent split of Joseph Vincent and there is a NR on the birth certificate for the father. If anyone can point me in the right direction or has some advice for a research newby as to how to find out more info that would be great. I have ordered Georges birth certificate and also the Joseph and Marys wedding certificate and Josephs death certificate. Also thank you for the discussion re Mary and Joseph as I had originally followed and Ancestry link which was inaccurate. As I was trying to confirm the details I came across this thread which confirmed what I had been trying to prove, that Joseph Vincent and Joseph Henry Vincent where different people. I haven't tried to follow Joseph Vincent back any further as it appears he is not actually Georges Dad anyway. Thanks again
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Hi DeetraSharp, and welcome to RootsChat :)
The original poster, New Zealander, was last on the forum in June this year but should receive a notification alerting him to your post.
George's 1891 birth certificate and the others you mentioned should provide some answers for you and stimulate more research.
In the meantime, can you tell us what you already know about George so we don't go over old ground.
Regards,
Spades
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Hi Spades , thank you so much for your reply. George Vincent born 1891/1892 still pinning this down. DOD 14/10/1929 apparently from lung injuries received in the war through breathing gas.
Married Maude Raymond Holloway in 1916. Had two children Thomas William Vincent 9/9/1922 (my Grandfather) and Eunice Mary Vincent 27/7/1924. I have found reference in Papers Past of Mary Vincent sending a letter to South Canterbury Hospital Board about a child being taken from her in 1893. From What i Have found George was the last child until she had Katie Vincent to a George Clark in 1897. She then had another child Alice Vincent to a Daniel Low in 1900. In both cases the fathers were taken to court to provide maintenance for the children. I was hoping to find something similar in regards to George but if he was taken off her by the state then she would not have been able to get Maintenance anyway. Poor Mary had a rough trot and it looks all down hill after she left Joseph Vincent, and had a restraining order taken against him. As we know through family that Mary Wild was the mother I am assuming he was not taken by his father, otherwise we would have this information and be searching for information about his mother. For interests sake both Tom and Eunice ended up living on Norfolk Island, South Pacific. Which is were I am now.Thanks again. See attached pic of George and Maude Vincent
Dee
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Hello DeetraSharp .... welcome :)
At this link is the WW1 file for your George VINCENT > (you may already have seen it ?)
George VINCENT - born Waimate - 1 November 1891 - died 1929 : Reg. # WW1 / 40398
Enlisted at Auckland on 30 October 1916 :
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE10746609
refer Image # 6 ...
He has given his parent's names as >
Father : Joseph - born NZ
Mother : *Polly - born NZ (note: * the name Polly is a diminutive of "Mary". )
Note: It is not unknown for enlistees to give information (which at some later date may prove to be incorrect ).
* What information for his parents is given on his marriage record of 1916 (to Maude HOLLOWAY) ??
~ Lu
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HI Lucy 2,
Thank you for this, I hadn't quite got to Georges war records yet, so tied up in researching Mary. I will have a look at these now, it was next on the list anyway. Thank you so much for the link, also thankyou for the explanation re Polly... that would have confused me no end. Joseph could well be the father however he apparently abandoned the family prior to Georges birth and Mary had a protection order granted against him in 1887. George was born in 1891. I will request a copy of his marriage certificate. I requested a print out of Mary and Josephs marriage details but this does not include any parents information so I must need to request the certificate. Thanks again.Deetra
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Hi Deetra
re: Marriage record for George and Maude - 1916 - the record you should purchase is the "printout".
We always recommend the printout, which is a copy of the actual record, of any B, D or M record as this gives the maximum amount of information available. [... a certificate is a transcribed version - open to mis-transcription and - in the case of marriages - leaves out the witnesses details which can provide at times, important clues.]
~ Lu
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Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
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Joseph could well be the father however he apparently abandoned the family prior to Georges birth and Mary had a protection order granted against him in 1887.
Link to protection order 1887 mention >
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/SCANT18870115.2.8
I haven't suggested that Joseph is George's father - I only gave the link to the Army file so you could see the information - provided by George - which had been recorded.
[ George himself clearly knew about Mary's husband, Joseph VINCENT, but that is not evidence that Joseph was his father. And you're already aware that George's birth was registered without a father being named. ]
~ Lu
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I don't have time at present to search for other newspaper records, but here is the item re: children being sent to industrial school.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OAM18930708.2.38
Notes: The eldest child named there as "Eliza Mary" appears to be Elizabeth Mary VINCENT - d/o Mary and Joseph - birth registered 1892.
The youngest of the children, named as "Henry VINCENT - aged 3 years 9 months" appears to be the child whose birth is recorded as >
1888 - VINCENT - Henry
Mother: Mary
Father : N/r (not recorded).
Date of birth (as deduced from NZBDM online listing) = 19 October 1888
~ Lu
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** C O R R E C T I O N **
I don't have time at present to search for other newspaper records, but here is the item re: children being sent to industrial school.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OAM18930708.2.38
Notes: The eldest child named there as "Eliza Mary" appears to be Elizabeth Mary VINCENT - d/o Mary and Joseph - birth registered 1892. Should have read > 1882
The youngest of the children, named as "Henry VINCENT - aged 3 years 9 months" appears to be the child whose birth is recorded as >
1888 - VINCENT - Henry
Mother: Mary
Father : N/r (not recorded).
Date of birth (as deduced from NZBDM online listing) = 19 October 1888
~ Lu
Ooops ... have only just spotted my error in my previous post (re-printed above ^ ).
The year of birth registration for Elizabeth Mary VINCENT should read as 1882.
~ Lu
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HI Lucy,
Thank you for this, I've had a busy weekend and only had a chance to have a quick look. I wonder what happened to James (1883), William Henry (1884) and George (1891).. They were all born at this time but not taken from Mary. I think that Marys parents raised another later illegitimate child, Alice as they took the father to court for maintenance. I have moved on to another section of my tree for the moment while I wait for some more print outs and certificates. Thanks again and have a great christmas.
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Hi Deetra
I actually have a little more information for you relating to George ... will add it here next.
Maybe "new zealander" (Alex), who began this search here, will (still) come onboard and be able to assist. :)
And best wishes to you too for a happy Christmas. :)
~ Lu
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oops P.S. ;D Just bear with me for a little while ... I have some shambolic notes which I need to re-read and decipher (so I can add them here in some logical sequence of events).
Back (fairly) soon.
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy2,
Wow thanks... I look forward to seeing the information that you have on George. I am working flat out to try and get as much done as possible so I can present it to my family as a bit of a Christmas present.
Thanks again.
Dee
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... George Vincent born 1891/1892 ... I have found reference in Papers Past of Mary Vincent sending a letter to South Canterbury Hospital Board about a child being taken from her in 1893.
From What i Have found George was the last child until she had Katie Vincent to a George Clark in 1897. She then had another child Alice Vincent to a Daniel Low in 1900.
Hello Dee
The child taken (by its father) from Mary VINCENT in 1893, may have been the son Isaac born to Mary and Joseph in September 1887 ? AND it may well have been only a temporary situation before Isaac was committed to Burnham with siblings Elizabeth Mary and Harry ? As the father of Mary's next son, Harry (born 19 October 1888), was not recorded at his birth registration, and there is no evidence (that I can find) of the supposed court case relating to the removal of a child from Mary's care, then it might be that further minutes of the Charitable Aid Board hold a clue ? [Note: You'd probably need someone to research records at Archives NZ in Christchurch ?]
It seems not to have been George who was removed.
The following article tends to confirm that George stayed with his mother (or at least as part of Mary's wider family), for his first seven years.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WDA18990708.2.13
... Waimate Court -- 6 July 1899 .... Police asked for an order to send George and Kate VINCENT, aged 7 years and 18 months respectively, to the industrial school.
And just to clarify, George wasn't the last child before the birth of Kate in 1897, Mary had had another child in 1893, who was unnamed and died shortly after birth.
Birth :
1893 / 7888 - VINCENT - NR - Mother: Mary - Father: NR
Death :
1893 / 6245 - VINCENT - NR - aged 9 hours
... both events took place on 7 December 1893 at Waimate.
~ Lu
continuing next > >
edited to add to text
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Mary VINCENT and family - continued >
* * * Full and completed Timeline is now at Reply # 66
This is a bit of a timeline for the VINCENT family with information gleaned from newspapers / a variety of records, Police Gazettes, etc. While it is recognised that Joseph VINCENT wasn't the father of George, the info may help in understanding more about Mary ?
1883 - George VINCENT - charged with failing to provide his wife and children with adequate means of support ; ordered to pay to Charitable Aid Board, the cost of support given. [NZ Police Gazette - 2 May 1883 ]
1886 - At Waimate Court - Three children, Joseph, James and William VINCENT, who had been deserted by their father, were committed to Burnham* on the application of Charlotte WILD. There is a warrant for VINCENT's arrest. [Extracted from "South Canterbury Times" - 13 March 1886 ]
[* refers to Burnham Industrial School ]
The NZ Police Gazette of 31 March 1886 - Joseph VINCENT - warrant from Waimate Bench - failure to provide his child with adequate means of support since 20th ultimo. [ "one child" ?? - this may have been daughter, Elizabeth Mary, who wasn't sent off to Burnham until 1893 ? Son, Isaac wasn't yet born.]
1886 - Long article - "Timaru Herald" 31 May 1886 - (this referred to earlier in thread) - does not mention Mary VINCENT by name but identifies her as wife of Joseph VINCENT/ Daughter of Charlotte WILD and details the reasons for her hospitalisation.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD18860531.2.15
At this time, Joseph VINCENT is given 6 months labour - discharged from gaol on 13 November 1886.
On 23 September 1887, Mary VINCENT gives birth to son Isaac at Waimate, his birth is registered with father's name, Joseph VINCENT.
1888 - [NZ Police Gazette - 1 February 1888 ] Joseph VINCENT charged with disobeying an order to pay for his three children in Burnham Industrial School. [note : the 3 children are Joseph, James and William.]
1890 - [NZ Police Gazette 1890 - page 93 - Return of Prisoners discharged ] Mary VINCENT - Timaru Court :
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE26310167
continues next > >
* * * Refer to Reply # 66 for full and completed timeline * * *
edited to correct and add text
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... still have more to add ... will do so later today. ~ Lu
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NZ Resources / Records :
Dee ... there are numerous mentions of Mary VINCENT in newspapers at PapersPast. You may though have already sourced these ? But in case you haven't ...
To find items easily at PapersPast suggest you limit searching to newspapers of Canterbury and Otago regions (Otago covers reports in "Oamaru Mail".)
I've referenced NZ Police Gazette here ... available at ancestry.com (if you are a subscriber) OR at
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals?snippet=true
(though not all contents of certain editions seem to be there ?) AND (easiest, if you want to search a certain year) at Archives NZ website collections search https://collections.archives.govt.nz/web/arena#/
enter "police gazette" and add the year you wish to view.
~ Lu
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Mary VINCENT and family - continued >
* * * This is the full and completed Timeline originally at Reply # 63
Mary VINCENT and family - continued >
This is a bit of a timeline for the VINCENT family with information gleaned from newspapers / a variety of records, Police Gazettes, etc. While it is recognised that Joseph VINCENT wasn't the father of George, the info may help in understanding more about Mary ?
1883 - George VINCENT - charged with failing to provide his wife and children with adequate means of support ; ordered to pay to Charitable Aid Board, the cost of support given. [NZ Police Gazette - 2 May 1883 ]
1886 - At Waimate Court - Three children, Joseph, James and William VINCENT, who had been deserted by their father, were committed to Burnham* on the application of Charlotte WILD. There is a warrant for VINCENT's arrest. [Extracted from "South Canterbury Times" - 13 March 1886 ]
[* refers to Burnham Industrial School ]
The NZ Police Gazette of 31 March 1886 - Joseph VINCENT - warrant from Waimate Bench - failure to provide his child with adequate means of support since 20th ultimo. [ "one child" ?? - this may have been daughter, Elizabeth Mary, who wasn't sent off to Burnham until 1893 ? Son, Isaac wasn't yet born.]
1886 - Long article - "Timaru Herald" 31 May 1886 - (this referred to earlier in thread) - does not mention Mary VINCENT by name but identifies her as wife of Joseph VINCENT/ Daughter of Charlotte WILD and details the reasons for her hospitalisation.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD18860531.2.15
At this time, Joseph VINCENT is given 6 months labour - discharged from gaol on 13 November 1886.
On 23 September 1887, Mary VINCENT gives birth to son Isaac at Waimate, his birth is registered with father's name, Joseph VINCENT.
1888 - [NZ Police Gazette - 1 February 1888 ] Joseph VINCENT charged with disobeying an order to pay for his three children in Burnham Industrial School. [note : the 3 children are Joseph, James and William.]
1890 - [NZ Police Gazette 1890 - page 93 - Return of Prisoners discharged ] Mary VINCENT - Timaru Court :
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE26310167
1891 to 1893 - Mary had her "problems" with the law during these years (and Joseph is being continually sought to make support payment for his children at Burnham). [Details already given here ... or can be found in newspapers or NZ Police Gazette.]
1895 to 1900 - Details for Mary can be found at same resources as given ^ above.
continues next > >
edited to correct and add text
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HI Lucy,
.... I wonder what happened to James (1883), William Henry (1884) and ? George (1891) ?.. They were all born at this time but not taken from Mary. I think that Marys parents raised another later illegitimate child, Alice as they took the father to court for maintenance.
Hi Dee
VINCENT children James (1883) and William Henry (1884) ... along with Joseph (1881) ... were sent to Burnham in 1886 > see Timeline at Reply # 66.
And above ^ "George" (1891) ... to Burnham with sister Kate in 1899.
I can throw a little light on what became of some of these children : (As you've already stated, there are many inaccuracies in the "trees" published at the ancestry site, especially those listed with "Joseph Henry VINCENT" as the husband of Mary WILD - when seemingly he was named only Joseph VINCENT ).
Firstly ... Henry VINCENT (born 19 October 1888 - Mother: Mary : Father: NR)
I don't agree with the info in trees at ancestry ... I think the following death is much more likely for Henry.
* Court reports published in newspapers can often contain incorrect information, and it seems perhaps a " 5 " was mistaken as a " 3 " for Henry's age in 1893 ("3 years 9 months")when committed to Burnham.
NZ BDM (online) Death Index has >
Death : 1895 / 3453 - VINCENT - Henry - aged 5 years - Date of death recorded as 24 April 1895 [Registered at Christchurch ]
Addington Cemetery (Christchurch) has this burial > 26 April 1895 - Unknown VINCENT - aged 6 years.
[Note: This burial plot at Addington contains a number of other (seemingly unrelated) children as well as numerous "stillborn" infants. It's likely the plot was on "free ground"- for use in charitable cases. https://heritage.christchurchcitylibraries.com/Cemeteries/ ] [Another "Henry VINCENT" with a similar year of birth is also on the NZ Death index but I've manged to find that he was English and had married in London before coming to NZ early 1900's.]
~ Lu
more info to follow (when I have time ;D ) > >
edited to correct a word :
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Joseph VINCENT jnr. born 1881 - son of Mary WILD and Joseph VINCENT
If information in a number of trees (30-odd) at ancestry can be relied upon, ;) then Joseph VINCENT married Jessie BROWN in 1908.
He died in 1966 and is buried at Geraldine Cemetery.
see > https://www.timaru.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemetery-search?Surname=vincent&FirstName=joseph
~ Lu
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James VINCENT b. 18 January 1883 - s/o Mary WILD and Joseph VINCENT
Photos (ex NZ Police Gazette) of James VINCENT b. c. 1884 - alias Joseph VANCE - alias James WILDS
[Note: I think the alias "WILDS" probably identifies him as the James VINCENT b. to Mary and Joseph ? But, as always, I stand to be corrected ;). ]
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZPG19251007.2.12.2.55?items_per_page=10&query=James+Vincent&snippet=true&title=NZPG
Numerous criminal acts - probably from c. 1907-1908 ? Police have matched this person James VINCENT to his alias names ... also appears as possibly "J. VINCENT" in Auckland (jewellery thefts)? His physical description (height 5' 7") appears consistent in all reports.
e. g. >
James VINCENT tried Amberley [nr Christchurch] 11/1/1913 - drunk and disorderly - b. NZ - occupation: Labourer - bc 1884 - height : 5' 7"
Other offences ... I'll leave for you to find under any of his three names (some offences are distasteful - don't want to add them here).
~ Lu
edited to enhance wording
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Further to James VINCENT in previous post ...
James VINCENT (bc 1884) - aka Joseph VANCE - aka James WILDS reported in various Police Gazettes - please note that this person appears in police photographs apparently taken in 1925. He vanishes from NZ records about 1934.
Many of the "trees" at ancestry.com site, record James VINCENT b.c. 1883, the son of Mary (nee WILD) and Joseph VINCENT, as having died in 1909. This is incorrect. They have the WRONG person.
The James VINCENT aged 26 or 27 who died on 2 March 1909 at Waikato Hospital and is buried at Ngaruawahia Cemetery, was the son of a William VINCENT, late of Opunake (Taranaki district).
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy2
Wow thanks so much for this information, you have given me lots more leads and info to follow up. It is greatly appreciated. :)
Regards
Dee
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Interesting Stuff! I have just found this Request, My Grandmother was Alice Vincent born 1901 (Adopted by Benbow family, Married name Hopkinson) whose mother was Mary Vincent and father Daniel Low. Of course I would be interested in exchanging information thank you. 8 March 2023
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I would be interested to know the parents of Harvey Wild who was killed at Passchendale during WWI. It lists his next of kin as his grandmother Charlotte Wild of Waimate New Zealand but I can no record of his birth parents. It is a long shot with nothing to back it up but could his mother have been Mary Wild/Vincent? ( Daughter of Charlotte Wild) With Mary Wild/Vincents chequed record been well documented I believe it could have been possible. Does anyone have any info that would shed light on possible parents. Any info would be much appreciated, thanking you Kiwimacca
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Hi Kiwimacca,
If you're referring to 24259 Harvey WILD of C Company, Canterbury Infantry Regiment, the Nominal Roll lists his next of kin as his mother, Charlotte WILD, of Waimate.
https://media.api.aucklandmuseum.com/id/media/v/321262?rendering=original.jpg
See Cenotaph at https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/
A search of NZ BDM shows seven children born to a Charlotte and William WILD between 1875 and 1895 although no child named Harvey. They might not be all one family, of course, and Harvey might be from a different family and born overseas, but it's still a lead for you.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/search?path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Dbirths
Spades
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https://museum.timaru.govt.nz/explore/scroll/profile?id=2432
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Thank you for that. This is an error in transciption. His original service record, see link below, clearly states '(Mother)' and reveals that she had died, presumably by the end of the war, and his medals were to be forwarded to a Mr James WILD (perhaps his father?)
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE20854379
Spades
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Will of Charlotte confirms Harvey is her grandson
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE65042683
See other post. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=871007.msg7421643
Think Jane was Harvey’s mother, but he was brought up as a son of William and Charlotte. Hence the confusion.
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Thanks mckha ... was just about to post the link to Charlotte WILD's probate record.
[Further back in this thread I seem to recall having made mention of the contents of Charlotte's Will ... and the several references to Harvey, her grandson ... [including a codicil following Harvey's death to add new beneficiaries of the portion previously bequeathed to Harvey].
Will is at File (Image) 3 - with another typewritten version later in file.
All of Charlotte's children (as at date of her will - 24 April 1912 - ) are named in the document at Image 3.
Charlotte WILD died at Waimate on 17 May 1920.
~ Lu
edit to alter date and also add further text
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This is some good information thanks guys. Although its a side shoot from Mary who is my Great Great Grandmother I will try to follow up and include in my tree. Still trying to find out who George Vincent's father actually was. Waiting on a DNA test from Ancestry to see if this helps at all.
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Hi Kiwimacca,
I was trying to send you a message, I have no idea if its going through as it keeps popping back up in my messages??? Just wanted to send you an invite to my ancestry tree as I have information about Mary Wild and family on there.
Regards Dee Sharp nee Vincent
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Yes I have your messages thank you. I have replied by PM
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Alister McKeown
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