RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: francoso on Monday 01 December 14 02:13 GMT (UK)
-
From her Passport issued under instructions of the Royal Government in Bromberg in Gnesen on 16 Day of May 1850 und Sieben (presumably 1857), her name appears to be Pauline KRZASNIJ or KRZASNY. She travelled to England in presumably 1857/8 as the document was valid for one year. She travelled through Hamburg but I cannot find any record of her passage.
From documents issued in England, her name has been variously written as Schasne, Schlaschni, and Chesney. From this it appears that her name in Polish may well have been SZCZESNY though I have no documents to back it up other than having seen another Family Tree with the family name written SZCZESNY (CHESNEY). Pauline was born in Witkowo, Province of Posen, District of Bromberg, and before moving to England she was staying with her father in Gnesen (Gneizno). In England she is recorded in census records using the name of Pauline, Selena, Helena.
Can anyone help me find her family (parents, siblings etc) in Poland.
Kind regards
francoso
-
Hi,
1. There is a Polish surname Krzasny.
2. Krzasny in dialect means godfather.
3. This dialect is present in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland)
4. Witkowo near Gniezno, located in Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), so the location fit.
5. The surname of Krzasny is very difficult to pronounce for foreigners, so they can have different phonetic records in English.
6. The document has been issued by the Prussian (German) officials, they were very thorough, and most importantly, that occupying this part of Poland for over 100 years, knew Polish names, many of these officials spoke good Polish.
7. Records of English, are probably incompetent phonetic transcription, there's no wonder it's very difficult to notice the name of the Englishman.
8. Chesney is the closest phonetic Krzasny, it would be better Kchasney, but nobody thought.
9. The surname of Szczęsny would record Shchasney (and so inaccurate because there is no phone in English ę)
10. Different first names, Paulina, Selena, Helena, easy to explain, the majority of Poles have two first names, formerly there were more. Today officially can only have two, but Paulina Krzasna (name of the transforms for women) was born so long ago could have had more names.
11. Germany (Prussian) or not inflect surnames in their documents as is always the name of the father. Father would be called Krzasny (Godfather), but his wife and daughter Krzasna (godmother) :) For comparison, a man named Szczęsny, and the woman Szczęsna.
12. Paulina first names is certain, Helena also possible Selena in Poland at that time did not exist.
13. For you, it was better to name Krzasny, not Szczesny. Krzasny is less common, it's easier to find a family.
14. Here you have a city named in the text:
Witkowo - today there is a large military airfield
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witkowo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witkowo
Gniezno - the first capital of Poland (X century).
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno
Bromberg is the name of a German, and Polish called Bydgoszcz and I live there :)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bydgoszcz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bydgoszcz
Regards from Bydgoszcz
Slavko
-
Thank you so much for all that information, Slavko. Your's is the first information to confirm that her name is Krzasny and that this name is present in the district/region where she came from. Her passport says she was 29, or in her 29th year (it is in German and I do not speak the language). That means that if she travelled from Posen to Hamburg to London in 1857 she would have been born about 1828, in Witkowo.
Can you give me any help in finding her birth registration and from that information be able to find her parents names and names of siblings ?
Again thanks for all the information.
Regards
francoso
-
What religion was Paulina Krzasna? This is important information because it will facilitate the search.
-
Hello, Slavko. I am not sure of her religion. In England she was "partner" of a Jew but there does not appear to be a marriage or, more correctly, I have not found a marriage in England which, if there was one, would have been sometime between 1858 and probably 1861. Her partner arrived in England from Russia in 1849 aged 14 so was born about 1835.
Regards
francoso
-
In Witkowo were the main three religions. It is checked - Roman Catholic, Lutheran Reformed, Jews.
Name indicates, in my opinion, that it Pulina Krzasna, was Polish.
So most likely was the Roman Catholic, but she could also belong to the Lutheran Reformed church.
Faraway was not a Jew, because her name in dialect “Krzasny”, that the Polish “Chrzestny”, English - “Godfather”, would point to someone - he was someone godfather - the Jews have no baptism.
I wish I had known exactly what was religion, it would easier to search, now you have to search the records of births 3 religions. I would start at your place of Roman Catholic.
Slavko
-
Can you scan the passport and paste here?
Because I have a suspicion that a read wrong name.
You know the exact date of birth Paulina?
I found the book of births in the Roman Catholic parish in Witkowo - and there is no name Krzasny there.
While there is a name Krzast.
Krzast archaic means baptism.
-
Hello, Slavko. I do not have her date of birth but have estimated her birth from her age in passport and from age given in census records in England. Attached are scans of the front and back of her one-page passport. The front is easy to read but the back has two messages in cursive script which are difficult to decipher. I hope you can download them and magnify them so that you can read them.
Regards
francoso
-
Hello again, Slavko. There is confusion about which year Paulina was born and also some confusion about when her passport was first issued. On the passport is says it was dated 1850 und Sieben but iI am not sure if the "und Sieben" has been added later. Perhaps the passport was first issued in 1850 but then it had to be verified when she left Poland in 1857 ? There is also mention on the back of the passport of "1850 und Sieben" and of "1857".
If the passport was issued in 1850 and her age at that time as shown in the passport was 28 then she was born about 1822/23. When she died on 27 February 1900 he age was given as 76, so born about 1823, the same. If she was 28 in 1857 she would have been born in 1829. In census records of England (not always very accurate with ages) in 1861 she is shown as 30 years of age; in 1871 she is shown as 40 years of age (both these ages estimate her birth in 1831); in 1881 she is shown aged 45 (born about 1836) -- I cannot find her in 1891 census.
I have been told that one of the messages on the back of the passport mentions that she could not make the journey in 1850 so applied to go in 1857 and the Landrat added the "und Sieben".
It could very well be that she was born about 1823 and not about 1829 ?
I much appreciate the time you are taking to help me with this problem.
regards
francoso
-
Could she have to be a widow? Behind him, she left Poland? Then we can look for it in the books of birth... :) When she married changed her name. The Catholic books from this period, there is often the name Krzast, I have not found Krzasny. Neither came to Pauline. Books are in Latin, and in most years, was led by someone who wrote like a chicken claw :) From the Latin, I have no problems, the problem of ugly letter for it. I only found something from 1850 - a book of marriages. There exists Paula Krzast (?)
-
Paula Krzast
-
I asked if she could be a widow or a divorcee. Then we do not know her name, only that the document issued in Bydgoszcz (Bromberg). Then you need to carefully search the book of marriages. Maybe she married someone named Krzasny? Krzasny such name as there is neither in the books of births. I checked the book of Catholic and Protestant.
In the lists of births Protestant, is much Pauline, but none except one does not have the name of K.
Photo below
-
Hi Slavko. Do you agree that the passport means that she got it in 1850 and intended to leave Poland in that year but postponed her travel until 1857 ?
Seven years is a long time and no reason is available to us. I wonder why she would arrange for a passport in 1850 if she intended to get married that same year ? If she did get married in 1850, her husband may have died about 1856 or 1857 and she then decided to emigrate to England ? If she was married for say 5-7 years, surely she would have had children born in that period of time.
Do you agree that the name on the passport is KRZASNY ?
Were you able to read and translate the two messages on the back of the passport ?
Regards
francoso
-
Hi,
a passport is a problem, photo is too small Resolutions, larger letters to blurrier. To post you can attach a picture of the maximum size of 500kb, it is not enough to increase. I'll send you a private message, my email address. Then send me a scan of the document in very good quality, will come in the mail to 25 Mb.
I have an idea who is well read. I have a friend the historian, works in one of the archives in Bydgoszcz. I think that the document that was created in Bydgoszcz, should be some trace in our archives. I know that the Prussian officials to draw up each document indicate this in their records. If these documents have survived, you can confront with them a passport. I think I survived, of Bydgoszcz, although fighting took place in 1939 and 1945, but without the use of heavy artillery, so the city was not destroyed.
Using state archives in Poland is free for citizens. You only pay when you want to archive workers to seek for us. You can look for yourself for free.
The plan is to:
1. Send me a high-quality scan
2. I'll check the traces of this document in Bydgoszcz archives.
3. How will we know exactly what it was called, it only can be found in the documents from Witkowo.
My friend the historian will not want problems to help. He also likes puzzles and mysteries. How to find something specific, it will set him a bottle of whiskey, which we drink together. ;D In Poland, more difficult to arrange something for the money, the easiest way for a bottle with friends. ;)
Greetings from Bydgoszcz
Slavko