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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: LizzieL on Sunday 30 November 14 12:54 GMT (UK)
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I have just found a marriage for a George Eltham to Annie Brown (widow) in Bootle on July 6 1912. He was a soldier in the local barracks and gave his father as Stephen Eltham deceased bricklayer. As this was a bit out of area for my Eltham research, I checked him on 1911 census (very easy with name, age and occupation) and found his place of birth bang in the middle of the area my direct ancestors originated from. So why didn't I have him and father Stephen on my tree? I thought I had got all the Wantage Elthams that ever existed several years ago.
Then the penny dropped he was the illegitimate son of Mary Louise Eltham and had fabricated a father. After five illegitimate children M L had married Stephen Wilkins and then produced a large crop of little Wilkinses as well. So young George had taken his stepfather's christian name and occupation tacked his own surname on and said he was dead. Stephen Wilkins was still alive at the time of George's marriage.
So not only is there a fictitious father on the marriage cert, but highly probable he has lied to his new bride and her relatives.
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It was quite common for illegitimate people to "invent" a father, in order to look respectable?! ;D
There was, and still is to some extent, a lot of bigotry about illegitimancy.
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You can't exactly blame him, given the times :(
Or it's possible that this is what his mother had told him.
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I don't think the mother would have worried too much, she had five illegitimate children and her sisters had two and one respectively. In 1881, Mary Louise was living with her parents and two of her illegitimate children and with sister Jane and her first illeg. child. Seems no attempt at a cover up. Stephen Wilkins was in the army for 12 years and was overseas during the period most of the children were conceived. They married three years after he was discharged.
I think it more likely George decided to invent the father to avoid a gap on the marriage certificate.
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Just because something is written down, it doesn't mean it is correct. Mistakes happen, people lie, or they tell what they think is right but it isn't.
I've found errors/lies on gravestones, bmd certs, parish registers, Wills, you name it!
On the plus side, my illegitimate gt grandmother's marriage cert gives her mother's name in place of the father so at least one of her parents was acknowledge. Let's face it, mother's are a bit more involved in the birth of a child anyway!
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There is an old maxim that says whilst maternity is a matter of fact, paternity is a matter of opinion.
Bear in mind also that just because the mother is married and her husband's name appears on the certificate as the father, that doesn't mean that he necessarily was the father ...
... but has any of us EVER seen a birth certificate where the mother is a married woman and the father's name appearing on the certificate is anyone other than her husband??
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... but has any of us EVER seen a birth certificate where the mother is a married woman and the father's name appearing on the certificate is anyone other than her husband??
Yes, but in Ireland at least the father had to appear with the mother to register the birth if they weren't married to each other.
I also researched a local family were the couple got married and the wife started producing numerous children over a long period of time. In the middle of her child-bearing the husband died (have death certificate and rather graphic newspaper account of inquest as he was run over by a cart) but for years after she merrily registered children by giving her deceased husband as the child's father.
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BMD's are just a historical event. Can we really trust any written history. No, not really. History is just a record based on knowlege of that time, which is just based on opinions of memory.
Regards
Malky
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After Hardwicke's Act of 1874, if a married woman registers a birth, it is assumed to be the child of her husband!
If the father of the child is NOT the husband of the woman, then he has to jointly register the birth, and sign the registration.
So, to see a birth registration, where the father of the child is not the husband of the mother is extremely rare! ;D
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... but has any of us EVER seen a birth certificate where the mother is a married woman and the father's name appearing on the certificate is anyone other than her husband??
As a matter of fact yes. Despite my three score years plus something I have just become involved in family history, and one of the first things I discovered was that a child I grew up with for 15 years is the son of my adoptive mother and a man of whom I know nothing other than his name. My adoptive mother was married however to my adoptive father at the time of the birth. The birth certificate shows my adoptive mother's maiden name and the stranger as the father, yet the subject of the certificate goes by the name of my adoptive father. Very messy.
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Long story but I obtained a marriage certificate where the groom made up a father by combining the first name of his real father with the surname of his unmarried mother.
The occupation engine driver was correct and it eventually led me to find the real father which I was delighted about.
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This thread is an example of why I keep banging on about family history researchers needing to understand why records were produced and what they record.
Historic birth records recorded only what the registrar was told. No proof for anything was required.
Worse still if they were acquired from the GRO they are only transcripts of what the registrar recorded and may contain errors and/or omissions.
Cheers
Guy
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My Gt Grandfather registered 4 out of 5 children, the mother registered my grandfathers, made a complete mess of it, even her maiden name was totally different. Cambridge assured me they were all the same Mother and Father, why did she do it?
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This thread is an example of why I keep banging on about family history researchers needing to understand why records were produced and what they record.
Historic birth records recorded only what the registrar was told. No proof for anything was required.
Worse still if they were acquired from the GRO they are only transcripts of what the registrar recorded and may contain errors and/or omissions.
Nice post Guy, and I agree entirely. People are prone to fibbing, and though it might be difficult to get at, yet the truth has a nasty habit of never entirely going away.
Please may I ask your opinion of birth registry accuracy? Perhaps records dating from certain periods and locations are more accurate than others? I know it is awfully general, but can you give an idea of reliability? This is after all just data that can be analyzed to obtain a figure of probability. Perhaps someone has done statistical analysis on the accuracy of birth registration data.
Are there accounts of Registrars being disciplined for cooking the books for want of a better expression?
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Please may I ask your opinion of birth registry accuracy? Perhaps records dating from certain periods and locations are more accurate than others? I know it is awfully general, but can you give an idea of reliability? This is after all just data that can be analyzed to obtain a figure of probability. Perhaps someone has done statistical analysis on the accuracy of birth registration data.
Are there accounts of Registrars being disciplined for cooking the books for want of a better expression?
Michael Whitfield Foster wrote two excellent books "A Comedy of Errors" and "A Comedy of Errors, Act 2".
on registration or more specifically the GRO.
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mikefost/
I am annoyed my copies are at present at my house in Scotland so I can't check to see if he quantified birth registers as he did for marriage registers in book one, though I think he targetted the GRO indexes rather than the registers in book two.
There are accounts of Registrars being disciplined as there are for Rectors being fined for not forwarding marriages to the Superintendent Registrars, but I don't have any at hand at present.
Cheers
Guy
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1886:
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18860405-459&div=t18860405-459
John Broome, registrar at Upper Holloway, was charged with falsifying entries.
He seems to have made up some additional births in order to get more pay. The false entries mentioned are still on freebmd! eg. "the Brace twins", supposedly born "August last" (e.g. 1885) and registered in September:
Harry Lorne Brace & Sarah
(would be interesting to know if there's any notes on the certificates if you actually ordered them).
Of course, he was inventing children who didn't exist... makes it a bit easier to notice.
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BMD's are just a historical event. Can we really trust any written history. No, not really. History is just a record based on knowlege of that time, which is just based on opinions of memory.
Regards
Malky
This is an interesting concept. How do we as researchers trust any information as correct?
Point in case: my grandmother was known as Ada May Lindquist, and that is the name I found on my grandparents' marriage certificate when I bought it. Knowing her parents' names from older relatives, I thought perhaps she was one of those not registered, as I couldn't find a birth record. When the BDMs were indexed by our local family history society here in South Australia, imagine my surprise and confusion when I found her registered under her mother's first husband's name of Dedman. Thoughts of wrong names entered my head, as well as the idea she perhaps had taken the Lindquist name, although three older sisters didn't.
Talking to older relatives who remembered the sisters, I discovered that she was in fact the eldest of the Lindquist girls, and had been registered under the Dedman name to hide the shame of the husband deserting the family.
Moral of the story? Where would my research have taken me if it had been out of living memory?
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My grandfather was the youngest of eleven born between 1853 and 1878. On birth certificates and death certificates of children my great grandmothers surname was Heale, Hale, Hales, Anst and Aust. Caused great problems until I found that her sister joined her out here and she had married an Aust. I believe Heale is the correct name, but back in England many of her siblings changed it to Hale.
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My uncle registered my gran and grandfathers deaths. Unfortunately he got in a muddle and he gave wrong addresses for where grandfather was born. It can't be amended unless we find grandfathers birth cert. we''ve had difficulty with that one. There was a surname change certainly by the time they came to Walsall.we know the surnames involved and they are common in the areas involved! My grandfather never found his cert. the royal artillery attestations give an area so we are trying again.
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This is an interesting concept. How do we as researchers trust any information as correct?
We don't accept any information at face value, written or verbal.
Always check all information with other sources look for other information to confirm or refute the original source of information.
Try to find three or more alternative sources.
Alternative sources means other types of sources not for instance other trees that contain the same information but compare census entries with birth and/or baptism information, electoral rolls, school rolls, burial registers, wills etc.
When looking at a source think -
Where did this information come from?
Is it likely to be accurate?
If so how accurate?
Can I access the original source of this information?
Take for instance an English census. If we disregard the 1911 census all earlier census are enumerators transcripts of returns and may contain errors in the copying process.
The Address is likely to be accurate
Names, Relationship and Condition is likely to be accurate but may include pet names and obsolete or terms where the meaning has changed.
The ages are likely to be inaccurate as age was not as important in the past as it is today and memory fails.
Occupation may use (now) uncommon terms and may only be a temporary occupation or false.
Place of Birth could easily be a wild guess.
Cheers
Guy
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For many years I searched for my Great grandfathers brother who was listed on the census returns as John. I could find no birth records that matched the information given on the census returns. I only found out the correct information when the vaccination records became available. On these records his name was recorded as Richard John. The family called him John so not to confuse him with his father Richard. The vaccination records also identified a unknown daughter born between census years that I was not aware of. Sadly she died. These are the type of records you can use to substantiate your research. They also give the name of the person who brought the child to get vaccinated.
Regards panda
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Thanks panda, it's something I've considered trying. Also confirmation and school records. There's a few other complications as well. Waiting for some certs. In respect to school records I was told closed for 100 years but may be able to do freedom of info. I spoke to someone at the local archives. The problem with that is, his mom would have died near the time he started school. The mom and dad were n't married supposedly but pretended they were on documentation and it was 1904 so no mothers maiden name to help on anything. Slowing chipping away. Different religions to contend with, mother was catholic. I might tackle the birmingham diocese after new year and later the Yorkshire one. Granddads half brother was called Charlie and his father Charles but Charlie has an alias James with a different surname!
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As a general rule of thumb, I agree with everything you listed, Guy. However, in the example I gave, if not for "living memory", I would have probably assumed that my grandmother had been born a Dedman; yet every other record for her gives her maiden name as Lindquist. Sometime I feel our research methods, as strong as they are, can still lead us astray, if false information has been given.
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As a general rule of thumb, I agree with everything you listed, Guy. However, in the example I gave, if not for "living memory", I would have probably assumed that my grandmother had been born a Dedman; yet every other record for her gives her maiden name as Lindquist. Sometime I feel our research methods, as strong as they are, can still lead us astray, if false information has been given.
I agree pinefamily but even (perhaps, especially) living memory should be checked.
For example I inherited a pedigree, produced by my grandfather, that gave no inkling that he had been married previously and that he only married my grandma (A quiet registry office wedding at a distant location after his first wife died) when their 4 children were between 12 & 20 years old.
Cheers
Guy
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"but has any of us EVER seen a birth certificate where the mother is a married woman and the father's name appearing on the certificate is anyone other than her husband??"
My great grandmother registered her son four months after her marriage to my great grandfather.
"James Cant or Ancliffe Mother Margaret Cant domestic servant married 14th May 1892 to George Henry Ancliffe gardener, who she declaires is not the father of the child." nothing if not honest.....
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"but has any of us EVER seen a birth certificate where the mother is a married woman and the father's name appearing on the certificate is anyone other than her husband??"
My great grandmother registered her son four months after her marriage to my great grandfather.
"James Cant or Ancliffe Mother Margaret Cant domestic servant married 14th May 1892 to George Henry Ancliffe gardener, who she declaires is not the father of the child." nothing if not honest.....
Yes. Living person, so say no more.
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As a general rule of thumb, I agree with everything you listed, Guy. However, in the example I gave, if not for "living memory", I would have probably assumed that my grandmother had been born a Dedman; yet every other record for her gives her maiden name as Lindquist. Sometime I feel our research methods, as strong as they are, can still lead us astray, if false information has been given.
I agree pinefamily but even (perhaps, especially) living memory should be checked.
For example I inherited a pedigree, produced by my grandfather, that gave no inkling that he had been married previously and that he only married my grandma (A quiet registry office wedding at a distant location after his first wife died) when their 4 children were between 12 & 20 years old.
Cheers
Guy
In my case, the woman who relayed the story to me was present when the older Dedman girls teased the younger Lindquist girls about being "b*****ds". Yet only three of theLindquist's were registered as such; the oldest two as Dedman's, and the next one not at all. And there is only 2 years difference between the youngest Dedman, and the oldest Lindquist, so why use "another" name?
But in reference to your inherited pedigree, I was separately told how we were related to nobility and had a general in the family. There was a family of the same name with the right connections, but it wasn't ours.
It's what makes our hobby so interesting.
Cheers,
Darren
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Just because something is written down, it doesn't mean it is correct. Mistakes happen, people lie, or they tell what they think is right but it isn't.
I've found errors/lies on gravestones, bmd certs, parish registers, Wills, you name it!
Agreed - people are very sniffy about assumptions, deductions and guesses, but even "proper" first hand, signed certificates aren't 100% certain. It's ALL shade of grayl, and anything you have is only ever a "best current approximation" to the unknowable absolute truth.
BugBear
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I only found out the correct information when the vaccination records became available. These are the type of records you can use to substantiate your research. They also give the name of the person who brought the child to get vaccinated.
How do you access these?
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I've found a few transcription errors on BMD certs, like the wrong middle name being written, the wrong year of a marriage (the index confirms its wrong) and it makes you wonder what is wrong that you don't realise is wrong...
Family rumour can be complete baloney- one story said my great great grandfather came from Merthyr Tydfil and I've never worked out why- he came from near Carmarthen. Another said another 2xgt came from Ireland, I proved he was born in Northumberland.
As for records of any type, I tend to also go by the motto that if something seems slightly iffy, that's because it usually is. If you've got a niggle that something stinks, keep poking.
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Hi Iolaus
The vaccination records were made available via a local village family history group who have done detailed research into their village. I would suggest you contact the local society for the ares you Re researching. So you can see the information available I have provided the link below
http://woodchurchancestry.org.uk/wavaccinations/index.html
Regards panda
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Family rumour can be complete baloney- ...
I always liked a comment on a railway program by Pete Waterman - he said the Flying Scotsman must have had the biggest footplate in the world, to accommodate all the people whose family history said they drove it...
:)
But conversely, family history often has a grain of truth (even when hideously distorted) and can help solve the "unknown unknowns" problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns
BugBear
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I think the issue gets worse if there are other family historians in the mix! My much older cousin (I call everyone cousins lol) started the whole Irish thing because he couldn't find a birth and the surname was "Brady". I think he searched for several decades in Ireland... It took me a couple of years to prove that the guy wasn't born Brady and the family is in Northumberland many gens back from him, although honestly if I'd checked one census I didn't the first time round, would have solved it in a night!
Another cousin said her grandmother must have been born Jane Ann and later changed to Ellen because she missed a christening in the original records that I later found online.
A lot of the time, the longer a person researches or otherwise the lazier the recipient, the more likely information or speculation is to be written down as gospel.
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Just because something is written down, it doesn't mean it is correct. Mistakes happen, people lie, or they tell what they think is right but it isn't.
I've found errors/lies on gravestones, bmd certs, parish registers, Wills, you name it!
I often wonder what this mason was thinking when he carved this stone.
http://anguline.co.uk/hto/trP1010001.htm
Or was it perhaps Yorkshire used a different calendar to the rest of the UK.
Or perhaps 1898 was a leap, leap, leap year.
Cheers
Guy
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I've found a few transcription errors on BMD certs, like the wrong middle name being written, the wrong year of a marriage (the index confirms its wrong) and it makes you wonder what is wrong that you don't realise is wrong...
I'm slightly puzzled, so would you please help my tired brain Ayashi. I can't quite work out the above. You say the wrong year of a marriage is on a certificate, confirmed by the index. I'm not sure what it is you are saying, perhaps you could offer a longer explanation if you wouldn't mind.
Susan
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I only found out the correct information when the vaccination records became available. These are the type of records you can use to substantiate your research. They also give the name of the person who brought the child to get vaccinated.
How do you access these?
If you go to http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=vaccination you can see what vaccination records are held across the country
Vacinator's Registers http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1800&_hb=oth&_q=vaccinator%27s+register
Stan
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I've found a few transcription errors on BMD certs, like the wrong middle name being written, the wrong year of a marriage (the index confirms its wrong) and it makes you wonder what is wrong that you don't realise is wrong...
I'm slightly puzzled, so would you please help my tired brain Ayashi. I can't quite work out the above. You say the wrong year of a marriage is on a certificate, confirmed by the index. I'm not sure what it is you are saying, perhaps you could offer a longer explanation if you wouldn't mind.
Susan
On the actual index of quarters and years, the actual lists, the year is 1887. The copy of certificate, handwritten, says 1888.
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Yes, I understand that part Ayashi, but is the certificate you mention a photocopy from the register held by the GRO, or a document handwritten when you purchased it?
The original register, held either by the Church or the local registry should have the correct details, the others merely copied from that, which adds to the possibility of errors.
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The certificate that I have is handwritten by somebody at the time of buying, not a photocopy.
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The certificate that I have is handwritten by somebody at the time of buying, not a photocopy.
I'm intrigued. I would never have known such things as all of mine are actual photo copies/extracts.
When & where did you purchase as I'm sure if you take/send it back with a note of the error they will exchange it?
Annie
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It was many years ago when I first started researching. I was a stubborn and rather naive 19 year old at the time and didn't accept the error until years later. I got it from the GRO. I do wonder if it is worth the fuss now.
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Just read this very interesting thread and thought this might be relevant.
When I was first learning about family history I looked for my own birth an marriage records, birth found okay, marriage no luck anywhere so I tried my husband's name and there it was date and place and first names correct, maiden surname almost the same as not quite. Now I have my marriage lines and the name on them is correct so at some stage it was adjusted!!! It was forty years before I discovered this so nothing has been done but if anyone else were to get a copy of the certificate in the future........... ::) ::)
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My original (first) marriage cert had entered my then husbands age incorrectly ........ when I realised I was pleased and hoped it meant the marriage was not valid....(he he he..... sorry) but no it didnt :( so I had to have a divorce ;D ;D :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) anyway
xin
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I have only had photocopies when purchasing from the GRO but have some handwritten ones from local offices (handwritten by current staff of course, copying from the original registers). Those from the GRO are already copies of the originals and can contain errors made at the time. I have two copies of a particular marriage, and they are indeed different.
Only a few months ago I noticed that my own marriage cert is not signed by me or my husband. Why I'd never realised it before is beyond me! I have since seen the original register which we did indeed sign.
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For years before i started researching i was told my great granddads name was Steven Parker. but when i started researching i could find no record for him, i then found out he is buried as William Ellis. sure enough when i looked his death is registered in 1935 as William Ellis. But as far as the family is concerned he was Stevie Parker. When i discovered my distant cousins the great granddaughter of his sister told me the family name was actually Loveridge. His dad being Henry Loveridge and his mum Sarah Smith. I still can not find any record of him, no birth and no census nothing not even newspaper articles, just his death cert and him buried in Toddington. So i have no idea who he was or why he was registered as William Ellis and not Stevie Parker or Loveridge. I did wander as he was taken from Toddington in Beds to University college hosp in St Pancras for treatment and then taken back when he had died if perhaps it was something to do with his army service. Someone paid, certainly not them.
I would so like to know why his death is reg as William Ellis and his birth registration,when was he born and where. Infact i would just like to know anything more about my great granddad. All i do know is when he died, how he died. He had 5 daughters (i think) and he was a knife grinder then a groom.
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Mistakes often happen-- even from official channels… When I ordered my Canadian mother's birth certificate it lists her mother as being born in Canada when in fact she was English.
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I have an example of an error on a GRO (Scotland) certificate here
http://anguline.co.uk/cert/marr_cert.html
There was no reason for the error as the actual register entry was clear and there were also other clues on the certificate as to what the maiden name should have been.
Such as the mother's and father's surname.
I assume the clerk was tired when he/she typed the copy certificate.
Cheers
Guy
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My great grandfather's date of birth is wrong on his birth certificate for the simple reason that his mother lied rather than pay a fine.
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My mother, many years ago, lost her birth certificate, so requested a copy (short) certificate.
It came back as:
Surname: Xxxx
Forenames: Joyce Cicely
Sex: Boy !! :o ;D ;D
So she beat the Sex Discrimination Act by a few years!!
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:o :o
Oh boy! (Sorry, couldn't help myself) ::)
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I know someone who ran into problems when trying to return home from Australia as his passport stated he was a girl - he ended up having to contact the embassy and get his father to send his birth certificate and so on. Said he wouldn't have minded but he used the same passport for about 5 years before anyone (including him) noticed it had the wrong gender on it, including to get out there in the first place - he blamed his parents for giving him a girls name