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Research in Other Countries => Canada Lookup Request => Canada => Canada Lookup Requests Completed => Topic started by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 29 November 14 20:32 GMT (UK)
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Born 1881 in England, died 1957 in England. Between 1904 and 1914 he 'appears' to have been to Canada and back at least twice but I am having trouble finding records to back that up
Definite sightings:
1 birth registered Q3 1881 Gateshead, Co Durham England, parents George Lyal HENRY and Joann HENRY (nee INKSTER)
2 1891 England census, with parents and siblings, age 9, scholar, 99 & 101 Redheugh Road, Gateshead, Co Durham RG12/P4176/F18/Pge30
3 1901 England census,with parents and siblings, age 19, occ Stonemason, 84 Claremont St, Gateshead, Co Durham RG13/P4753/F54/Pge58
4 “My’ James Arthur HENRY is nowhere to be found in the 1911 census for England & Wales, nor is he to be found in Scotland
5 1912 20th April, age 30, marriage to Elizabeth PUGMIRE at St Cuthbert’s Church Gateshead, occupation Stone Cutter, address 16 Berlin Street, Gateshead, Co Durham
6 1914, age 34, occ stonecutter, passenger on SS Grampian, arriving from Montreal to Liverpool 28 Nov 1914, destination 30 First Street, Gateshead (his parents’ address) country of last permanent residence, Canada, intended country of permanent residence, England
7 Births of 3 children in Gateshead, Co Durham, England Florence (1917), Dorothy (1919), Ronald (1920)
I am happy that the above is correct and they are the same (and the right) man.
Unverified info
1 I am told that James and Elizabeth had a child called George William Athol HENRY born March 1913, he died in Gateshead, Co Durham, England in 1988, but its highly likely he was born in Canada - no back up for this info, but I am unable to find a birth registration in the UK for this child.
2 I have a 'possible' outgoing passenger list entry in 1904, Liverpool to Montreal, arriving 08 Oct 1904, James A HENRY, age 23, single, occ mason, came from Co Durham, England, headed for Mc Adam Junction - this matches for name, age and county he came from and I know he had relatives in the Fredericton area of York County, NB which isn’t a million miles from McAdam Junction so its all in the right ballpark.
Possible scenario (if I can find the records to back it up)
James Arthur went to Canada in 1904, then came home sometime between then and 1912 when he married in Gateshead. Then he and his wife went back to Canada sometime after their marriage in 1912, had this child called George William in 1913 and then, when war broke out, he returned to the UK to ‘do his duty’, wife and first child followed at some stage and after 1917 I am back on an even track with this family.
What I have still to find (if it exists)
1 An incoming to the UK passenger listing for James Arthur HENRY sometime between 1904 and his marriage in Gateshead in 1912
2 An outgoing , UK- Canada (by whatever route) for James Arthur and his wife Elizabeth sometime between his marriage in 1912 and his return in 1914
3 An incoming Canada - UK, by whatever route, passenger listing for wife Elizabeth and possible child George William Athol HENRY sometime between 1913 (when the child was born) and 1917 (when the next child was born in Gateshead)
4 a birth/baptism record in Canada for this child would be the icing on the cake :-)
Phew! Sorry, that goes on a bit, but I wanted to give as much detail as possible to avoid anyone wasting their time looking for stuff I already have.
If anyone has the time to look and see if there is a passenger listing I have missed, or can suggest any other possible resources I would be REALLY grateful.
Thanks
Boo
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James Henry age 30 stone cutter and wife Lily age 21, both born England, arrive Quebec City 13 May 1912 aboard CORSICAN headed for Regina Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan is supposed to have online births before 100 years ago but quick searches of common names indicates they are only entered up to about 1908.
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Lillie Hendry age 22 and William Hendry infant aboard PRETORIAN from Montreal to Glasgow arrived 3 Nov 1914. Only likelies found on incoming list between 1914 and 1918. Arrived UK 25 days before James, probably travelled separately because of submarine threat.
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manawakian, I really can't thank you enough :-)
That really does look like they are the right ones - they have provisionally ticked off items 2 and 3 of my wish list. As for Item 4 - the birth - I will keep an eye on the Sask births index, if he was born there then it will turn up in the fullness of time.
Which leaves me with item 1 - the missing incoming to the UK journey between 1904 and 1912 for James Arthur, I may have found a 'possible' for that too. His brother, Albert, was also AWOL from the 1911 UK census. I have a likely passenger list for him going to Canada, on the SS Canada 15 April 1910. He too was back in the UK in time for James and Elizabeth's wedding as he was best man.
There is a passenger list arriving Liverpool 25 Nov 1911 on the Empress of Ireland that has an Albert and a James HENRY on it. listed together. The ages are out and the occupations are both ditto-ed as 'farmer' but its in the possibles box anyway :-)
Thanks again, really kind of you to take the time to look and its very much appreciated.
Boo
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http://automatedgenealogy.com
1911/Saskatchewan/Regina/62Regina/page 4
Henry, Albert b. Dec 1886, age 25
Henry, James b. June 1882, age 29
both born England
immigration 1910
occupation could be stone cutter, employer - farmer, house building or builder
lodgers with other immigrants from England with occupations lumberman, teamster, blacksmith
You can view the original census pages through the split view option. The census info is not very clear but this may be your James and Albert.
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I'm a little confused. I thought his wife's name was Elizabeth. How does Lily fit in? And do you have any information indicating George William Athol was called William?
Jacquie
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Thank you valeriec !!
Another for the 'fairly likely' box. I really do appreciate all this help.
I have the scan now and by opening it in a graphics package and 'twiddling' a bit, I do believe that the immigration year for James could well say 1904, which would fit in with the other possible/likely records I have stashed away.
thanks again
Boo
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I'm a little confused. I thought his wife's name was Elizabeth. How does Lily fit in? And do you have any information indicating George William Athol was called William?
Jacquie
Hello Jacquie
The info about the child comes 'third hand' but the source, I am told, came from a nephew of his. That's all I know and until I find something to back it up he doesn't get his own twig on my tree, but I'll continue to try to find something to back it up.
George William Athol HENRY - well his paternal Granda was George, his maternal Granda was William and lord alone knows where the Athol may have come from.
Yes, James' wife 'was' Elizabeth, but I have learned to not discount records that on the surface have incorrect names. They get squirrelled away until I can either find back up to show that the person was also known by a different name or back up to prove its definitely not them. In this case the passenger record matches on his name/age and the timing of the journey, her name doesn't match and is slightly 'out'. I am not taking it as writ in stone (as nothing ever is) but have it in the 'possible veering towards likely' category.
I once spent two whole years trying to track down a lady called Lily, my Pa in law's aunt who emigrated to the US. Turned out in the end, that although she was known to the family as Lily, her actual name was Eleanor Mary - and she had a sister the family called Aggie, whose real name was Kathleen. Go figure that one :-)
Any and all 'possibles' are gratefully received, checked out and stashed away for the day I 'may' find something that takes them out of possible and into 'on balance, I now have enough checking points to be as sure as I ever can be' or the 'well it was worth a shot, but its not the right one'
Thanks for your input, all responses and viewpoints give me more to consider and are appreciated.
Boo
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Age for James 20 Apr 1912 = 30
Age for James 13 May 1912 = 30
Age for Elizabeth 20 Apr 1912 = ??
Age for Lily 13 May 1912 = 21
If ?? = 21 good chance Elizabeth = Lily
Let us know the value for ??
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Hi manawakian
Well Elizabeth was born in 1894 (birth registered Q4 1894, baptised Oct 1894, down as 18 on the Apr 1912 marriage cert) and I did wonder about the age of 'Lily' on that passenger list.
So I checked the England & Wales Marriage Index on Free BMD for a marriage between a James Henry and a lady with a first name of Lil* between 1900-1912. There were only 2, one in 1902 and one in 1906, which would definitely discount the first one on age and make the second one 'unlikely' on age too. So this passenger list, even with the first name not being a match is still in my 'possible' category.
I believe I have tracked down a grandchild of James and Elizabeth with an online tree, but its been over a year since they signed into their account. I have sent a message but no idea if they will see it and, if they do, if they can shed any light on it. Hope springs eternal though :-)
I'll post back if ever I get to the bottom of it. The only other thing is to wait for Saskatchewan to put the 1913 birth index online and see 'if' this George William Athol was registered and if so, what it says about his parents.
Thanks so much for your interest, at least now I have 'possibles' to work on :-) They may be a bit smoke and mirrors but hey! its better than I had before I posted in here!
Boo
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The only other thing is to wait for Saskatchewan to put the 1913 birth index online and see 'if' this George William Athol was registered and if so, what it says about his parents
I wouldn't put much hope in that. They haven't added entries to that database since it was first put online over 5 years ago.
Jacquie
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Hi Jacquie
Well I wasn't gonna hold my breath ... :-)
Though I have sent an email giving the details I have and asking if they can confirm the parents names if the registration exists - as its now outside their 100 year privacy rule but not yet available on the website.
They may not reply, or they may reply and say they can't tell me, but my Granda Albert always told me that shy bairns get nowt , so I've asked anyway :-)
Boo
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So sorry, just when I thought I had done all I can for the moment, I am back again.
Okay so from manawakian's suggestions, I now have these 'possibles' for items 2 & 3 from my original list
2 James Henry age 30 stone cutter and wife Lily age 21, both born England, arrive Quebec City 13 May 1912 aboard CORSICAN headed for Regina Saskatchewan
3 Lillie Hendry age 22 and William Hendry infant aboard PRETORIAN from Montreal to Glasgow arrived 3 Nov 1914. Only likelies found on incoming list between 1914 and 1918. Arrived UK 25 days before James, probably travelled separately because of submarine threat.
possible, even likely, but the name change from Elizabeth to Lily is the fly in the ointment.
I have been poking round in other records, trying to find 'something' that may verify the crossing in May 1912 on the Corsican and I have found an attempted border crossing (he was debarred) from Winnipeg, Man to the US dated 24 Nov 1914.
Its really difficult for these old eyes to read, so if anyone has access to these records, I would appreciate an opinion.
What I can make out is:
Left Hand Side of Form:
Line 6 Stamped: Debarred, Henry (stamped B.S.I. - I don't know what that means), James Arthur, age 34, male, married, Labourer, can read, can write, Nationality Canada, Race, English,
Then it starts to get cramped and difficult to tell which line the entry belongs to
Last permanent residence - City appears to be Regina,
Name of relative/friend in country from whence he came
Friend Mrs Kerr, 1807 Halifax St, Regina (I think!)
Destination state seems to be Minnesota? City I can't make out the name.
So far so good, age is a bit out, but city he came from matches and 'if' his wife was Lily, then she had already left for the UK, so a putting a friend on the form, rather than his wife, seems okay too.
Right Hand side of the form:
yes he has a ticket to get to Minnesota, paid for by a friend, No he doesn't have at least $50 with him.
never been in the US before, (stamp- Contract Laborer) Name & Address of person he is joining: Chief Engineer {can't read the next word} Machinery Co, {same city name I couldn't read before}
skip the next few columns about his appearance, health etc etc
and then . .
Country of Birth England City or Town of birth GATESHEAD ON TYNE Whoopeee!!
and he landed in Quebec in May 191?on the Corsican Mega Whoopee!
Oh please, if anyone can look I'd love to know if I've read it correctly and pinned him down.
If I have read it correctly I have a new possible scenario.
For whatever reason they decided to go home to the UK. Lily/Elizabeth went first with the baby and James Arthur had a job offer in the US, so he was going there to make some money and would follow when the job was finished - OR maybe she would go back if it turned into a good, permanent job.
The US authorities wouldn't allow him to enter the US on 24th Nov 1914, so he cashed in his ticket to Minnesota and with whatever he 'did' have in his pocket maybe had just enough to get a ticket on the Grampian on 28th November 1914.
I'm worn out now! :-)
Boo
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This is getting to be an interesting mystery. The person applying for entry to the US has the details of James Henry's arrival in Canada aboard the Corsican down pat, and is aware of his Gateshead bp and middle name Arthur, which is info not found on the passenger list. The problem is that the correct James Henry should be a 32 year old stone cutter with a wife and family heading back to England, not a 34 year old penniless labourer with a prospective job at a machine shop in Minnesota.
While we think of identity theft as a modern phenomenon, perhaps this is a century old case of the same thing. Is it possible that a man whose past would prevent him from entering the US has somehow obtained James' personal information and is assuming his identity to try and cross the border? If this was identity theft the location of the crime was Regina.
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hmm, well I suppose that 'could' be the case - everything is possible and I will bear it in mind.
However, the passenger listing for the journey back to the UK, 4 days after the failed border crossing also has his age as 34, but on that list his occupation is down as stonecutter.
I suppose it depends on who decides on what is written down. Maybe when James gave the immigration officer details of what he would be doing (who knows what that would be, maybe they were going to build a new factory rather than him working in the machine shop) the officer decided it came under the general heading of 'labourer'. When he was giving the details for the passenger list the person there just wrote down whatever he said? Lots of ifs and maybes :-)
I am veering on the side of the border crossing being 'highly likely' to be the right person at the moment, until something else turns up that may either discount it or confirm it further :-)
Thanks again manawakian, the help I have had in here has been invaluable in opening up new areas and theories to explore.
Boo
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A most interesting thread!
I was wondering if George W A married a Marion in 1946 (FreeBMD)? If this is the same George the cert should give you his father's name?
The failed border crossing is certainly enticing.
PB
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hello polarbear
Yes, you are right, though its frustrating at times, tracking folk like this 'is' interesting. It takes me a while but I am sure I'll get there in the end.
Thanks for the marriage reference, I hadn't actually got that far but am now looking into it to see what I can find out :-)
Boo
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Free BMD has a marriage for Albert Henry to Christina B Nairn Jul-Sep 1915 Belford. This couple had a child named Lilian born Oct-Dec 1922 Gateshead which died Jan-Mar 1924 Gateshead.
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Thanks, though I didn't say, Albert was my Granda - teller of stories, singer of songs, giver of the BEST of hugs and whiskery kisses and my best friend when I was a small child. I know about all of his children, including those, like Lilian, who were born and died too soon. I never met James Arthur or any of Albert's siblings.
It 'is' possible that Lilian was named for Elizabeth/Lily but that is one of the many things I wish I had asked when he was still around. What I wouldn't give for just an hour again with him, not just to ask the questions I would like answered, but mainly just to spend a little time with him again :-)
Boo
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When looking for information on James Arthur Henry with wife Elizabeth/Lily, please be aware there is another JAH with wife Lily that shows up in Manitoba/Sask starting in 1901 through 1921.
James Arthur Henry b. 1881 Ontario
Lily Wilkinson b. England
m. 13/01/1902 Manitoba
first child Gladys Emma b. 1905, Manitoba
show up on 1906, 1911, 1916, 1921 census in Humboldt, Saskatchewan
occupation is farmer but many times this would also be labourer.
Wanted to point this out when looking for info so that you don't assume that all info that you find is for your James Arthur Henry.
When looking for information on James and Elizabeth, I would look for old photos with names on the back, cards, etc. also look for obituaries for the children of this pair as it may give reference to her being nicknamed Lily. Depending on how many females in her family were given the name Elizabeth, many could have been given nicknames. My Aunt Peg real name was Elizabeth, my great grandmother named Polly for Mary Ann.
Good hunting
Val
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I was wondering if George W A married a Marion in 1946 (FreeBMD)? If this is the same George the cert should give you his father's name?
Marriage now checked out, the grooms age isn't a match and neither is the father's name.
Thanks for the suggestion though, every straw floating by gets clutched at round here :-)
Boo
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When looking for information on James Arthur Henry with wife Elizabeth/Lily, please be aware there is another JAH with wife Lily that shows up in Manitoba/Sask starting in 1901 through 1921.
James Arthur Henry b. 1881 Ontario
Lily Wilkinson b. England
thanks valeriec
That is a good point, I did search the Canadian census returns when the James/Lily passenger entry on the 1912 crossing was suggested and saw the people you mention.
The passenger list says that James was a stonecutter (which was a definite plus point for this record) and their destination was Regina
and this other man seems to have lived in Humboldt and was a farmer /?drayman - or at least his occupation was recorded in 1921 as ‘draying’ so I assume something to do with horse drawn transport of some kind?
Of course, I have no idea if Regina would have been sort of a ‘waypoint’ to get to Humboldt, never been to Saskatchewan, but looking on the map it seems to be about 135 miles north of Regina (which is probably almost ‘next door’ in Canadian terms!)
Checking family ephemera (photos, cards etc) isn't an option as they no longer exist. (these things are sad, but it happened and there's no turning back the clock).
I will investigate the newspapers for obits but for the everyday folk here in the UK the best I am likely to get is a death/funeral notice in the newspaper and 'maybe' a mention of living descendants.
Boo
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Love the username, TicketyBoo...
Yes you can't discount the way naming can change... the childish version of Elizabeth, Lily-Beth...If a baby sister or mother called her that, it could stick. Doesn't hurt to follow through all the leads and then prove or disprove. One's occupation can change quickly when moved into Saskatchewan.... My Lumberjack/Blacksmith etc. family had to quickly become farmers, or starve. There was not a lot of room for more than one specialized field. Keep options open, but don't hang your hat on anything until it is proven...Middle names were often used as first names of several of my great aunts & uncles.
Keeps us hopping! You have some great helpers on here... J.J.
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Love the username, TicketyBoo...
Username? he he I have been Tickettyboo on the web for more years than I can remember, webfriends send snailmail addressed to "Mrs T. Boo", which always makes the postie giggle :-)
But no, the vicar flat out refused at my christening to baptise me as such :-)
Thanks for the encouragement and the advice, all taken on board.
Boo
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Baby step forward for two records which are 'possible, but not enough to be exact.
1911/Saskatchewan/Regina/62Regina/page 4 (about June time?)
Which has Albert and James in Sask, right ages doing some sort of building work
25 Nov 1911 passenger list arriving Liverpool on the Empress of Ireland that has an Albert and a James HENRY on it. listed together. The ages are out and the occupations are both ditto-ed as 'farmer'
This morning I have found records for Albert in the database for the Amalgated Society of Carpenters and Joiners
1 May 6th 1907, Albert HENRY was admitted to the Society, Gateshead 2nd Branch, single, age 21 years and 9 months (Albert was born Aug 1885), having worked 7 years at his trade (he was now out of his apprenticeship and was a Master Joiner)
2 April 8th 1910, Albert HENRY, who was admitted to the Society, Gateshead 2nd Branch on May 6th 1907 at the age of 21 years and 9 months, single, transferred to the Toronto 1st Branch (this ties in with the 1910 crossing for Albert on the 'Canada' arriving Halifax from Liverpool 15 April 1910, destination Toronto)
3 15th November 1911, Albert HENRY, who was admitted to the Society, Gateshead 2nd Branch on May 6th 1907 (hand in the air, that actually says 1901 but I'd bet my boots it was misread when the entry was made) at the age of 21 years and 9 months, single, transferred FROM the Regina Branch back to Gateshead (this ties in with the crossing for Albert & James 25 Nov 1911 on the Empress of Ireland)
4 There is a later record all the same admission etc info and Gateshead Branch and it says that Albert HENRY married on 31st July 1915 (this matches the date my Albert married)
These records tick all the boxes for me, they have everything bar a note saying 'hey Boo, here's your Albert' :-)
So, not for James Arthur but as the Canadian census and crossing that were in doubt had Albert AND James its a bit more weight to be added to the likelihood of it being for these brothers.
Its a bit like doing a jigsaw puzzle, without the picture and someone has hidden half of the pieces! Its SO much fun though and totally mind-blowing that not only have these records survived all this time but bit by bit they are becoming available on the web :-)
Plus of course the web gives us access to places like this where, via the kindness of strangers, I can get new leads to follow, opinions on whether or not my logic is flawed etc etc.
Thanks everyone!
Boo
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Wow, those are awesome records to be so thorough with ages and a date of marriage? Nice find. J.J.
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Yes they are brilliant and just released this morning on FindMyPast so the Genealogy Gods have been very kind to me :-)
Boo
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Too bad they don't have the membership registers of The Friendly Society Of Masons And Quarrymen on there, isn't it. I spent some time looking, as I'm sure you have also, before deciding it was futile.
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Hi manawakian
Yes, I always get very excited about a new online database and then, once the initial euphoria has worn off, I want MORE, NOW! :-)
The stonemasons union records are held by the Modern Studies Centre at Warwick Uni. I'll enquire if they have plans to share them via one of the genealogy sites, if not I'll try to go and see what I can find there in the New Year.
Boo
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It occurred to me that the family might have had George William Athol ( a street name in Regina ) Henry baptised/christened after they returned to England. The unindexed parish registers of many Gateshead churches are on microfilm at the Durham County Archives. Unindexed microfilm, the dark ages of genealogical research. :-[
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I'm a little confused. I thought his wife's name was Elizabeth. How does Lily fit in? And do you have any information indicating George William Athol was called William?
Jacquie
another baby step achieved :-)
A Roots Chatter has kindly looked up the detail of Elizabeth's death announcement in the newspaper for me. Sadly no mention of an alternate name of 'Lily' but the announcement mentions a son called William :-)
another snippet that can go on the scales to reckon up the balance of probability at some stage.
Boo
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It occurred to me that the family might have had George William Athol ( a street name in Regina ) Henry baptised/christened after they returned to England. The unindexed parish registers of many Gateshead churches are on microfilm at the Durham County Archives. Unindexed microfilm, the dark ages of genealogical research. :-[
I have had a LOT of experience of those in my rare visits to the archives in the area. I'll give it a go next year on my annual visit.
Boo
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Ok its 6 years since I posted this query and am revisiting the family to check if anything new has popped up.
The Saskatchewan genealogical births database seems to have been updated and I have finally found the birth registration for their son George William Athol HENRY who was born in Sask :-)
HENRY, George William Athol, M, born 6th March 1913, Regina
Parents Elizabeth PUGMIRE and James Arthur HENRY
The birth date matches with that on the 1939 register in England and he was recorded with his parents and sister all of which checks out.
I may be slow, but I often get there in the end. I am adding this into the thread for completeness. It may help someone , someday :-)
Boo