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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Dolly_007 on Saturday 29 November 14 11:12 GMT (UK)

Title: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: Dolly_007 on Saturday 29 November 14 11:12 GMT (UK)
Hi,

I have ancestor awarded a MBE & OBE in the 1920's,am struggling to find any further info,have tried the National Archives Web Site ( no success ) London Gazette etc .
Lil Nugent Harris (double barrel surname) had been the Editor for "Home & Country" Women's Institute publication .
In the 1922 editions the "MBE" appears for the first time after her name,WI archives do not have any further info on the award(s).
Any suggestions ?!.

Thanks
Dolly.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 29 November 14 11:16 GMT (UK)
The London Gazette will show all the names of recipients of MBE's and OBE's, but not a citation.

Your best bet to find out what she did to achieve her award would be a local paper of the time.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: GrahamSimons on Saturday 29 November 14 11:31 GMT (UK)
I've had a look for this kind of information too. Failed to find anything in the archives. Did find material in local newspapers, as suggested. I'm not at all sure what happens to the paperwork.....someone must make a recommendation, committees must sift recommendations, recommended lists must be sent to No 10 or the Palace or somewhere, with some notes attached I would expect.... but where are they?
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 29 November 14 14:00 GMT (UK)
I am struggling to find the marriage, or any census returns, for the Nugent Harris's?

So, presumably they weren't known to officialdom as Nugent Harris?

Do you have any ideas as to marriage, or where they were in any census?
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 14 14:18 GMT (UK)
I think she may have been Irish KG  :)

The Times reports after her death 'She was a member of an old Irish family'

Mrs. Nugent Harris. -     The Times (London, England), Tuesday, Dec 02, 1952; pg. 10; Issue 52484. 

The article also states she got her OBE in the mid 1930's

She was married to Mr J Nugent Harris for over 64 years



Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 29 November 14 14:27 GMT (UK)
There's an old post (2008) about her cremation at Brighton - but I'm not seeing a death, either?!

I was trying to establish what her real forename was, and therefore how she would have been addressed in the London Gazette.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 14 14:30 GMT (UK)
According to this she was
Elizabeth Frances daughter of Alderman Robert Crawford of County Sligo

The Times (London, England), Thursday, Dec 24, 1953; pg. 9; Issue 52813


Her husband was born in 1862 County Clare

Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 14 14:38 GMT (UK)
Could this be her death, it would tie in with the obit  and maybe the cremation  :-\

Death December 1952   
Elizabeth F Harris
age    84    Uckfield   
5h   487
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: groom on Saturday 29 November 14 15:13 GMT (UK)
That's her according to the Probate list:

Elizabeth Frances Harris, otherwise known as Lillie Crawford, wife of John Nugent Harris. Lived in Dane Hill and died 7th November 1952.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 29 November 14 15:20 GMT (UK)
From familysearch
Elizabeth Frances Crawford
John Nugent Harris
Marriage Jul - Sep 1888
Sligo, Ireland
Jul - Sep 1888
Sligo    2 / 233

Her husbands death is registered under just the name of Harris too
Deaths Dec 1953 
John N Harris   
age 91   
Cuckfield    5h   184
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 29 November 14 15:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks all!
That makes it a lot easier to find them on the 1911 census ;D

Names as mentioned:
John Nugent Harris and spouse Elizabeth Francis Harris - so NOT a double-barrelled surname ::)
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: groom on Saturday 29 November 14 15:38 GMT (UK)
Her husband John Nugent Harris was a founder of the Women's Institute in the UK. I would guess she got the award for services to the WI. Scroll down to 1915  http://www.thewi.org.uk/about-the-wi/history-of-the-wi/the-origins
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: Elwyn Soutter on Saturday 29 November 14 15:43 GMT (UK)
I've had a look for this kind of information too. Failed to find anything in the archives. Did find material in local newspapers, as suggested. I'm not at all sure what happens to the paperwork.....someone must make a recommendation, committees must sift recommendations, recommended lists must be sent to No 10 or the Palace or somewhere, with some notes attached I would expect.... but where are they?

Anyone can be recommended for an award. Some recommendations are by private individuals, others by charities and some by employers eg for military personnel. The citation goes to the Cabinet Office and is passed on to the Palace with a recommendation one way or the other.

The person who receives the award does not necessarily get to see the citation. (I know from personal experience). All you generally get told is that it was in connection with “your services to nursing” or whatever. As far as I can tell the citation is never normally made public, so getting to see the exact detail is difficult, if not impossible, unless the person making it chose to send the recipient a copy.  (I think the originals are kept in Buckingham Palace’s records, but I am not sure they are open to the public).
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: KGarrad on Saturday 29 November 14 15:43 GMT (UK)
Try here: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/15387/page/412/data.pdf

Half way down, right-hand column.


As I suspected; it's a matter of searching under the right name! ;D
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: groom on Saturday 29 November 14 15:48 GMT (UK)
Good find KG - just shows how all the bits of the puzzle come together.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: brianoleary85 on Saturday 29 November 14 16:12 GMT (UK)
I had been researching an individual who had been awarded an OBE in 1918, to find out more information you'll have to write (by old fashioned letter rather than email), to:

The Central Chancery of the Orders of Knighthood,
St. James' Palace,
London SW1.

They were very helpful and were able to track down the individual in question and provide info on their awards.

If you give all the details you possibly can on the individual (addresses, date of birth, roughly when the award(s) were made), they should be able to help. However, as far as I remember they won't be able to give any details as to the reasoning behind the award. I think there might be a broad reason, for instance "services to charity", but they don't have any biographical details relating to the award (at least not for the early ones, I couldn't say regarding more modern awards). Hope this is of some help!

I can't quite remember where in my mess of papers the reply was, but I don't think there was too much more information than available in the Gazette. I was looking up a political figure and hoping for further information on the people who nominated him, and there definitely wasn't anything of that nature available for records at that stage anyway.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: Jebber on Saturday 29 November 14 16:17 GMT (UK)
Recommendations for military honours and awards 1935-1990 can be downloaded from the National Archives.
Title: Re: Honours / Awards ( MBE & OBE )
Post by: Dolly_007 on Saturday 29 November 14 21:04 GMT (UK)
Evening,

Thank all so much for your replies  :).

John Nugent Harris was my great great Uncle & they often used " Nugent Harris " as a double barrel surname when it really was Harris (!).
You have all given me some good pointers - many thanks .

Dolly.