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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Armagh => Topic started by: Forfarian on Sunday 23 November 14 17:34 GMT (UK)
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Cassells Cordner was a Presbyterian minister. In the 1901 census he was aged 17, born Armagh. Failed to find him in 1911 so far. He died in Belfast in 1955, aged 70. Yet I cannot find a birth record. Any ideas, anyone, please?
His brother Joseph, also a minister, died in Belfast in 1939. I can't find a birth for him either.
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The Presbyterian Historical Society keep record of the careers of all their Ministers. So that may include place of birth, as well as where they studied. (Many Presbyterian Ministers took degrees in Scotland and so possibly that's where Rev Cordner may have been in 1911). Suggest you contact them:
http://www.presbyterianhistoryireland.com
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This might be him in 1911 in Lancashire:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWT8-26Y
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Thanks, Glensman. I did look in the 1911 census official site, but it did not find him. I will take another look.
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Rev. Cassel(l)s Cordner
Castlewellan Presbyterian Church- lic. Dromore 1918, ordained 5 Sept.1919, resigned 29 Jan.1931.
Cooke Centenary Presbyterian Church, Belfast-installed 29 Jan.1931, retired due to ill health 31 May 1948, died 30 Oct.1955
Rev. Joseph Cordner
Drumbo Presbyterian Church- lic. Dromore, "a Lurgan man," ordained 2 Aug.1911, resigned to go to Canada 17 Sept.1926.
Clifton St. Presbyterian Church, Belfast- "a Lurgan man who had been ordained in Drumbo and then served in two Canadian charges, in Hamilton Rd. Church, London, Ont. and St. Andrew's, Sherbrooke." Installed 15 May 1930 & there until he died 27 May 1939.
Clifton St. United- memorial window to him dedicated 10 Jan.1954
More to follow...
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Thank you, Elwyn. I'll give that a go.
Still puzzled by the apparent absence of birth certificates for Cassels and his brother; have found both in at least one census and both claim to have been born in County Armagh. Ages in census suggest Joseph was born 1877/8 and Cassels 1883/4.
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For reference- Cassells in 1901:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Kildare/Athy_East_Urban/Townparks/1432982
Joseph with sister in 1901:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Rosevale_Street/962999
Cordner Cassells of 54 Sydenham Avenue Belfast presbyterian minister (retired) died 30 October 1955 Probate Belfast 29 March to Mary Margaret Cordner the widow. Effects £6105 16s. 9d.
Probate of the Will of Andrew Cordner late of Ballymagarrick, County Down, farmer, who died 23 December 1917 granted at Belfast to Jane Cordner, Ballymagarrick, County Down, spinster and Rev. Joseph Cordner, Drumbo, County Down, Presbyterian minister. Effects: £450 8s 7d.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Drumbo/Ballymagarrick/1238902
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Drumbo/Ballynagarrick/248047
Fits with 1911 Census entry:
St. Thomas' Church of England, Wigan:
Marriage: 1 Feb 1908 St Thomas, Wigan, Lancs.
Charles Reid - 32, Missionary, Bachelor, 18 George Street, Hindley
Martha Somers - 21, Spinster, 4 Dobbs Fold
... Witness: Cassells Cordner; Lizzie Somers
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Wigan/Wigan/stthomas/marriages_1905-1915.html
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Rev. Joseph Cordner gave birthplace as ___, Portadown in 1926 Canadian Passenger list. 1923 going to visit relatives in Canada and gave birthplace as Co.Armagh. Sept.1907 returning to Canada as a student.
Still trying to narrow down the townland in Portadown area.
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Thanks, Aghadowey. I have all that now, and a few more snippets including his marriage certificate (at the age of over 60) and Joseph's obituary from the Irish Times, but still no birth certificate :(
It's Cassells' wife Mary Margaret Macaulay who is my (distant) relative
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Took a bit of time but think this is Cassells Cordner - Macaulay are easier to trace :)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FBCQ-B6J
Added- 12 Feb.1884 Lurgan district (mother McGinn)
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Found Cassells CORNER in GRONI website born 12 February 1884, mother's maiden name McGinn, registered in Lurgan.
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Also Joseph CORNER born 3 September 1877, mother Maghie, registered in Lurgan.
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Bit more detail for Joseph with place & different version of mother's maiden name:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGN5-B4M
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James Cordner in Muckery townland:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Drumcree/Muckery/1031517/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Drumcree/Muckery/301890/
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Thanks, Glensman and Aghadowey. I did try searching with the surname set to 'begins with cor' and first name to 'begins with cas' so I am mystified why I couldn't find it before.
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HI,
James Corner married Mary McGinn in Lurgan First Presbyterian Church on 16 Oct 1868.
Regards
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Macaulay are easier to trace :)
Much easier - not least because this family were all born, married and died in Scotland except for Mary Margaret's father Samuel who was born in Ireland, and her husband Cassels who was born and died in Ireland.
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And James' [b 1843] father was John, Mary's father Thomas.
Would be interesting to know why he was named Cassells. I have quite a bit on the Cassells [my ancestors] and Corner / Cordner families but don't know how these Corners are connected.
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Hi,
This may not be of any help but I have found a marriage of William Corner to Deborah CASTLES in Knocknamuckly Church of Ireland, Seagoe parish, Lurgan on 25 Sept 1855.
Regards
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Hi,
This may not be of any help but I have found a marriage of William Corner to Deborah CASTLES in Knocknamuckly Church of Ireland, Seagoe parish, Lurgan on 25 Sept 1855.
Regards
Thanks, I have that and her children but can't see how they might connect with Cassells Corner. The William Corner she married I have as Thomas b abt 1800
1 Thomas Corner
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Birth: c1800, Ireland
Spouse: Mary Swennerton
Birth: c1800
Children: William (1820-1897)
Ellen (1825-)
Elizabeth (1830-)
John (1830-1893)
1.1 William Corner
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Birth: c1820, Co. Armagh, Ireland?
Death: 7th January 1897
Christen: 10th February 1822?, Shankill Church of Ireland
13 children
Spouse: Deborah Castles
Birth: 19 Jan 1825, Co. Armagh, Ireland
Death: 12 Feb 1900, Drumgask, Portadown
Father: John Cassells (1800-)
Mother: Margaret (1805-)
Marriage: 27 Sep 1855, Knockamuckley C of I, Seagoe Parish
Children: Ellener (1855-)
Mary (1856-)
Elizabeth (1857-1898)
Thomas Bristow (1859-1945)
Margaret "Maggie" (1860-)
Sarah Anne (1865-1947)
William (1866-)
Gilbert (1868-1941)
Deborah (1869-1884)
John
1.2 Ellen Corner
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Birth: c1825
Spouse: William Gilbert
Birth: c1820, Co Armagh?
Marriage: 14 Dec 1846, Shankill Church Of Ireland
1.3 Elizabeth Corner
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Birth: c1830
Date of Marriage
5 Aug 1852
Groom Name
Joseph TURKINGTON
Bride Name
Elizabeth CORNER
Church
Ardmore Church of Ireland
Parish
Montiaghs
Civil District
Lurgan
County
Armagh
Spouse: Joseph? Turkington
Birth: c1830
Father: Oliver Turkington (~1800-)
Marriage: 5 Aug 1852, Ardmore Church Of Ireland
Children: Robert David (1866-)
1.4 John Corner
--------------------------------------------------
Birth: c1830
Death: 1893, Drumnamoe
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Hi Forfarian (and other correspondents)
I appreciate you've declared this post completed, but I was in the ScotlandsPeople Centre in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago looking up some Dundee connected Nicoll family records and dug a wee bit deeper - as you do - into a Nicoll-Warner marriage which, in turn, led me to the Reverend Samuel Macaulay's youngest daughter Sheila Lyall Guthrie Macaulay. I then found the Reverend Samuel's eldest daughter Mary Margaret married to Reverend Cassells Cordner. The record wan't available for download, but I did record the details for my own files:
Cassells Cordner married Mary Margaret Macaulay at St Cuthberts Parish Church, Edinburgh, Midlothian on 10 October 1946. Marriage after Banns according to the Forms of the Church of Scotland by Rev James Jordan Macaulay, B.A., D.D., Minister of Christ Church, Rathgar, Dublin, Eire.
Cassells, Minister of the Presbyterian Church, aged 62 and resident at 12 Rosetta Park, Belfast.
Mary Margaret, Supervisor Addressograph Section, aged 48 and resident at 41 Bruntsfield Gardens, Edinburgh, Midlothian. His parents were James Cordner, Farmer (Deceased), and Mary McGinn (Deceased).
Witnesses were Thomas Cordner, Portadown [County Armagh, Northern Ireland] and Helen S. Rae, 41 Bruntsfield Gardens, Edinburgh.
Reverend Samuel and his wife Helen Scott Shiell had a third daughter Helen Scott Macaulay born on 6 January 1906 at The Manse, Tealing, Forfarshire - as were the other two daughters. She married Charles Kendall Hamlyn Rae, age 34, a Timber Agent, resident at 59 Forest Road, Edinburgh in September 1941. I have a wee bit more on them if you want it.
Hope this helps with your research?
Regards
Chiad Fhear
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Thanks, Chiad Fhear.
I do have all three marriages, and the deaths of all the six involved except Charles Kendall Hamlyn Rae. I also have births of five children of the Rev Graham Nicoll Warner and Sheila Lyall Guthrie Macaulay, though I have not yet searched for their marriages or deaths.
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Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
The Register of Death for Charles Kendal Hamlyn Rae isn't available for download yet, but I noted all the information when in Edinburgh. Here's his entry from my files.
CHARLES KENDAL HAMLYN RAE (WILLIAM HAMLYN) was born 18 Jul 1907, and died 23 Mar 1980 in Milesmark Hospital, Dunfermline, Fife. He married HELEN SCOTT MACAULAY 20 Sep 1941 in 7 Cluny Avenue, Edinburgh, Midlothian, daughter of SAMUEL MACAULAY and HELEN SHIELL. She was born 06 Jan 1906 in The Manse, Tealing, Parish of Tealing, Forfarshire, and died 29 Mar 2003 in Henderson House, 2 Link Road, Dalgety Bay, Fife.
More About CHARLES KENDAL HAMLYN RAE:
Cause of Death: Myocardial Infarction; Coronary Arteriosclerosis
Occupation: Sep 1941, Timber Agent
Residence: Sep 1941, 59 Forest Road, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Residence (2): Mar 1980, The Cottage, Manse Street, Aberdour, Fife
More About HELEN SCOTT MACAULAY:
Cause of Death: Left Ventricular Failure
Occupation: Sep 1941, Typist
Residence: Apr 1941, 41 Bruntsfield Gardens, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Residence (2): Sep 1941, 68 Greenbank Court, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Marriage Notes for CHARLES RAE and HELEN MACAULAY:
Marriage after Banns according to the Forms of the Church of Scotland by Rev Adam Burnett, D.D., Minister of St Cuthberts Parish Church, Edinburgh. Witnesses David C. H. Martin, Mt. Elna, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Margaret Macaulay, 19 Lask Road, Belfast.[/i]
I have a written record for Helen's death but we'll need to exchange emails if you'd like a copy.
I hope this helps you?
Chiad Fhear[/size]
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Thank you again. That's very useful.
I have seen Helen's death certificate so don't need a copy, thank you. I assume that neither Mary Margaret nor Helen had any family?
If I find anything on the Warners I'll PM you.
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Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
Chiad Fhear
That's spooky, I live in Cowes, Australia! I'll have a look for him in the cemetery.
It would be interesting to know more on Cassells Cordner's parents to see if there is a link to the Cassells. Would Emerald Ancestors have info on the marriage of James Cordner and Mary McGinn?
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Hi Sunnyhill
We may, or may not be on the right person here ... I "Googled" his full name and got a couple of "results" from Ancient Faces:
DEATH:
BORN : 1884
DIED : 1944 in Cowes, Australia at 60 years old.
SOURCE : Victoria Australia Death Records: 1836 - 1985
MARRIAGE:
SOURCE : Victoria Australia Marriage Records: 1836 - 1942
LOCATION : Australia
FAMILY : Annie Marie Steele Robertson (wife)
He may have remarried. Who knows.
I tried a search on TROVE (the Australian Newspapers' Archive) but couldn't find anything for him.
I hope you can find a headstone for him! Good luck searching!
Chiad Fhear
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Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
The Register of Death for Charles Kendal Hamlyn Rae isn't available for download yet, but I noted all the information when in Edinburgh. Here's his entry from my files.
CHARLES KENDAL HAMLYN RAE (WILLIAM HAMLYN) was born 18 Jul 1907, and died 23 Mar 1980 in Milesmark Hospital, Dunfermline, Fife. He married HELEN SCOTT MACAULAY 20 Sep 1941 in 7 Cluny Avenue, Edinburgh, Midlothian, daughter of SAMUEL MACAULAY and HELEN SHIELL. She was born 06 Jan 1906 in The Manse, Tealing, Parish of Tealing, Forfarshire, and died 29 Mar 2003 in Henderson House, 2 Link Road, Dalgety Bay, Fife.
More About CHARLES KENDAL HAMLYN RAE:
Cause of Death: Myocardial Infarction; Coronary Arteriosclerosis
Occupation: Sep 1941, Timber Agent
Residence: Sep 1941, 59 Forest Road, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Residence (2): Mar 1980, The Cottage, Manse Street, Aberdour, Fife
More About HELEN SCOTT MACAULAY:
Cause of Death: Left Ventricular Failure
Occupation: Sep 1941, Typist
Residence: Apr 1941, 41 Bruntsfield Gardens, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Residence (2): Sep 1941, 68 Greenbank Court, Edinburgh, Midlothian
Marriage Notes for CHARLES RAE and HELEN MACAULAY:
Marriage after Banns according to the Forms of the Church of Scotland by Rev Adam Burnett, D.D., Minister of St Cuthberts Parish Church, Edinburgh. Witnesses David C. H. Martin, Mt. Elna, Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire and Margaret Macaulay, 19 Lask Road, Belfast.[/i]
I have a written record for Helen's death but we'll need to exchange emails if you'd like a copy.
I hope this helps you?
Chiad Fhear[/size]
William Hamlyn Rae was my great grandfather. Happy to answer any questions? He died in 1944 in Cowes, Victoria (Australia). He was cremated and his ashes scattered at Springvale Cemetery in Victoria.
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Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
Chiad Fhear
That's spooky, I live in Cowes, Australia! I'll have a look for him in the cemetery.
It would be interesting to know more on Cassells Cordner's parents to see if there is a link to the Cassells. Would Emerald Ancestors have info on the marriage of James Cordner and Mary McGinn?
Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
Chiad Fhear
That's spooky, I live in Cowes, Australia! I'll have a look for him in the cemetery.
It would be interesting to know more on Cassells Cordner's parents to see if there is a link to the Cassells. Would Emerald Ancestors have info on the marriage of James Cordner and Mary McGinn?
He was cremated in 1944 at Springvale Cemetery. His second wife, Annie Rae Steele is buried there.
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Hi Forfarian
Like you I also have the birth details of the five" issue" of the Rev Graham and Sheila, but still have to "pursue" their marriages and deaths ... if that be the case.
Charles Rae was a son of William Hamlyn Rae and Anne Kennedy Robertson Dalrymple. William was a Church of Scotland Missionary and, as I'm led to believe from a Google search, went off to Australia where he died in Cowes, Victoria in 1944.
Chiad Fhear
That's spooky, I live in Cowes, Australia! I'll have a look for him in the cemetery.
It would be interesting to know more on Cassells Cordner's parents to see if there is a link to the Cassells. Would Emerald Ancestors have info on the marriage of James Cordner and Mary McGinn?
I see that there are details about a Deborah Castles earlier on.
From my experience with fasmily Irish accents and Australian accents I would think that Castle/Cassell are the same name. My Australian gt grandfather, apparently, always pronounced the A in a word like castle, like Cass or castanet short. This pronounciation came down in my mother's family to her (born/died in NZ); She always pronounced castle as Casstle. By contrast, in NZ and some parts of Australia the A is lengthened like barn with a 'car' sound or Carstle.
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DBM