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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Clarijo on Wednesday 19 November 14 14:32 GMT (UK)
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I am desperately trying to further the family tree that my dear cousin started before her untimely death, and I have hit a total brick wall in the shape of our great-great-great grandmother, Mary Jane Lengurill (father John Lengurill). She married Christian Fischer in Liverpool in December 1858, but her life before that point is a complete mystery: she doesn't seem to exist! It is such a strange name, that I assumed it must've been a transcription mistake. However, I have had a good look at the marriage certificate, and it seems to check out. Not British? Don't know. However, the Fischers were definitely German. Any help at all and I will bless you! Driving me mad!
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Hi and a warm welcome to Rootschat.
Have you found her and Christian on any census after their marriage?
What is the name, and year and place of birth, of their child (your gg-grandparent) ?
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Following on from those questions (probably answering my own question!)
Is this them in 1861?
1 Union Place, Liverpool
Christian Fischer 26 Sugar BAker bn Oldeborg
Mary J 20 wife bn Gibraltar
William 9mths bn Liverpool
So, looks as if she was born in Gibraltar around 1841.
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Crikey! Thanks for quick response. Yes, the Fischers (Christian and Mary) feature in all the census records I've explored so far: they're very easy to trace. Their son, Wilhem C (oft recorded as William C), is my direct ancestor. Christian dies quite early - in his 30s - and then Mary marries the lodger (!!) Heinrich Schwarze (sometimes anglicised as Henry Black!!) and has at least one more son. All that is clear: but where on earth was she before all this?!
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GIBRALTAR!!! Flip. No wonder I was in the dark!
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Thank you SOOOOO much. I will try, in my hapless way, to find records for Gib.
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1871 however has conflicting info, giving her pob as Ireland ..... ??? And a drastic change of occupation for Christian - sugar baker to engine driver!
1871
Free Church ROw, Liverpool
Christian Fischer 36 Engine driver bn Germany
Mary J 29 bn Ireland
William 10
Frederick 8
Christian 6 children all bn Liverpool
+various visitors
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Uh-oh. Another crimp in it. Honestly, this woman is a complete enigma. Nothing seems to stack up. I think I will have to admit defeat, but that you so much for your swift courtesies.
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It would help to see an extract of the original marriage if you have it. Father's occupation, witnesses, etc. (Gibraltar could suggest a British Navy connection).
If not, I think you need to get hold of it to check that spelling.
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Welcome from me too. Don't give up yet!
What is the occupation for John Lengurill given on Mary's marriage?
Ireland + Gibraltar connections makes me think possibly military?
X-posted with jorose thinking along same lines :))
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highly probable she was from a Military family, stationed in outposts like Gibraltar, and maybe a bit later garrisoned in Ireland....... try asking on here if theres records of Regiments in those places in early to late 1840s .... next step would be to look at a site specialising in Military Births overseas ....
I think that findmypast.com has a British Nationals Armed Forces Births 1761-2005 Index available
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OK, well I see that John was a wine merchant according to the 1858 marriage.
Have you traced the witnesses Louis John and Sarah Evert, in case they are related?
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I have seen a copy of it online. Mary's age is given as "minor", no occupation, living in Stanley Street, Lpool, father John Lengurill, Wine Merchant. Christian "full age", Labourer, father John Fischer. Witnesses Louis Liton and Sarah Evert. All involved appear to have signed in their own hands (no "x" for their marks etc). St Nicholas Church, Lpool, 16 December 1858. It is utterly frustrating. (I am off work with the flu, and if I didn't feel so weak I would throw this laptop at the wall. Must be the Lemsip taking effect ...)
Thank you so much for your kind and quick response!
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Witnesses Louis Liton and Sarah Evert.
Also appearing in the witness section is the name Louis John - who may be a separate witness, or may be the curate's clarification of the signature (on the same line) which appears to say Louis Liton.
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ENORMOUS THANKS ALL ROUND!! Loads to get into there. Time to crack open the Beechams Powders in celebration and get my head around it!
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Yes, the Louis "Liton" signature is scribbly to say the least, which made me wonder whether all the signatures were approximate? But it would appear no corrections made to them. Thank you so much. I feel as if I have been given a springboard!
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Im trying to work out what she gives as her pob in 1881 census. (after she had remarried to Schwarze)
Looks like "Lambay"
RG11 3679 89 6
Seems to be an island off Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambay_Island
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Oh, good Lord! What further madness is this?!? I have just read the Wiki link (many thanks). what a strange place. All tenant farmers ejected: could be that Lengurill pere reinvented himself as a wine merchant? I just can't begin to imagine the circumstances to be honest. Probably have to draw a line in the sand here. You have been terrific: thank you SO MUCH.
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I liked the bit about the wild wallabies!
Dont give up. She must have arrived from somewhere, at some time before 1858. And she was only young - did she come alone? Did she even come direct from Gibraltar/Ireland/Lambay?
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I imagine wild wallabies would be enough to make anyone pack their bags and go ....
Do you think she might have been adopted? By Lengurill, I mean. And anyway, who was Lengurill? He doesn't crop up anywhere, either. And what sort of place was Stanley Street? Maybe I should go to Liverpool. It would be a schlep, but I feel myself getting into this now!
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Oh, I see that Stanley St is very close to St Nicholas Church, which is picturesquely described as The Sailors' Church. How sweet. I guess it is near the Pier Head or Docks, or something.
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PS what does "minor" mean in the context of age at marriage? Does it mean U21?
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Given the rarity of the surname it may be worth having a look at Scharlattea Langurill who married John Michael in Liverpool on 13 March 1871.
Her father named as Henry but I wonder whether there's a connection of some sort?
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PS what does "minor" mean in the context of age at marriage? Does it mean U21?
Yes :)
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Also a "Susan Langrill" m. 1871, father John:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNS7-HKP
to Agustus/Augustus Ledwich or Ledwick.
Is the "John Michael"/"Scharlattea Langurill " marriage possibly related to the "Michell" lodgers (b Germany and Ireland) living with the Fischers in 1871?
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Well, if you folk aren't professionals, you jolly well should be. I have never seen such a flurry of excellent suggestions, and such fabulous detective work, too. Thank you SO much. So, now is it a good idea to go onto Ancestry websites and search their banks of records? I am not terribly talented at this, to be honest. Find the navigation a bit difficult. Thanks in anticipation of good advice.
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Is the "John Michael"/"Scharlattea Langurill " marriage possibly related to the "Michell" lodgers (b Germany and Ireland) living with the Fischers in 1871?
That must surely be them - married less than three weeks by then (13 Mar to 2 Apr).
If the 1871 census is correct John was 18 and Charlotte was 40.
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familysearch.org has the marriage but not the fathers and witnesses!
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2TT-R57
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Another wonderful reference! Thank you soooooo much.
I will have to look into these Michell people; the so-called Lodgers, or Visitors. I am sorry to say that the whole story seems rather odd. It has the vibe of marriages-of-convenience. Great age differences, for eg. I sincerely hope I have not stumbled across something sinister.
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I am now wondering whether Charlotte Michell, aged 40, Workman's Wife, is in fact the MOTHER of John Michell, aged 18, Workman. I do hope so. The alternative is not so comfortable. Oh DEAR. WHO are these Lengurills/Langurills? Does it often get muddy like this?
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Also a "Susan Langrill" m. 1871, father John:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NNS7-HKP
to Agustus/Augustus Ledwich or Ledwick.
Susan's husband may be the August Ledwick, 24, who served as a fireman on the vessel City of Brooklyn out of Liverpool, Nov 1872-Jan 1873.
His birthplace appears to be Poland.
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I am now wondering whether Charlotte Michell, aged 40, Workman's Wife, is in fact the MOTHER of John Michell, aged 18, Workman. I do hope so. The alternative is not so comfortable. Oh DEAR. WHO are these Lengurills/Langurills? Does it often get muddy like this?
Our ancestors have a habit of surprising us! It's important not to apply wishful thinking. There are a number of possibilities here, including that there is an error in their respective ages as shown in the 1871 census. We do not know how legible or otherwise was the household schedule provided to the enumerator.
The marriage certificate may assist with precise ages of bride and groom, or it may just state Full age or Minor, as the case may be.
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And a drastic change of occupation for Christian - sugar baker to engine driver!
Not necessarily. There's a possibility he moved jobs within the refinery. Being in charge of a stationary engine would have been a move upwards from labourer (which is what the vast majority of sugarbakers were).
Union Place and Free Church Row were, I think, both off Scotland Road, and so may have both been within easy walking distance of the sugarhouse.
(Will add Christian and his two lodgers to the database asap).
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What is a sugar baker? Why would he come over to the UK to do such work? Was Germany in recession, and why Liverpool? I am a very much of the South East; don't know much/anything about the North West.
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Liverpool was important in the development of large-scale industrial sugar refining - see e.g this on Henry Tate, later of Tate & Lyle:
www.tateandlyle.com/aboutus/history/pages/henrytate.aspx
I believe there was early expertise in Germany in sugar refining, so Christian may have been recruited for his skills. I suspect sugarbakers will know a great deal more!
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Thank you very much! So, a sugar baker was a labourer in a refinery most likely. I suppose there were other refineries in Liverpool. I don't suppose you happen to know what a naphtha rectifier did? I have just found out that this is what Heinrich Schwarze claimed to be.
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Naphtha is a hydrocarbon produced as a byproduct from the distillation/refining of crude oil, coal tar, and possibly also natural gas (not sure).
It could have had various uses, as a solvent, a fuel for lamps or an accelerant for lighting fires etc.
I'd have thought a rectifier would have been involved in the distillation/refining process but again not sure. You may be able to find relevant info online.
Added: found this which may help http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha
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Not necessarily. There's a possibility he moved jobs within the refinery. Being in charge of a stationary engine would have been a move upwards from labourer (which is what the vast majority of sugarbakers were).
Union Place and Free Church Row were, I think, both off Scotland Road, and so may have both been within easy walking distance of the sugarhouse.
(Will add Christian and his two lodgers to the database asap).
Thank you Sugarbakers, that is interesting.
Just goes to show, in Family History you really need to keep on your toes and never jump to what you think are obvious conclusions! In my mind, when I saw sugar baker, I thought immediately along the lines of one of my ancestors who was a confectioner and baker - he was working in a little bakers shop making fancy sugary things that were then sold alongside the bread. When I saw engine driver I thought initially of trains (!) and then of heavy industry.
But, when put in the context of working in a sugar refinery - yes progression from general labourer, to sugar baker (baking the sugar! not baking fancy sweet things using sugar!!), to engine driver (driving the machinery used in the refining process!) makes so much sense!
A lesson for us all.
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Thank you, lizdb, avm228 and Clarijo.
What is a sugar baker? Why would he come over to the UK to do such work? Was Germany in recession, and why Liverpool?
Two or three snips from the Introduction in my book ...
" 'Sugarbaker' was the term used by the migrant German workers to describe themselves, though it was often used to describe other nationalities of refinery workers. The British sugar refining industry, by the very nature of the supply of its raw material from overseas, was primarily located in London, Liverpool, Greenock and Bristol, with German labourers predominating in London, sharing the load with the Irish in Liverpool, but being few in Greenock and Bristol. Many other cities and towns had refineries but only Hull, as an entry point for migrants, employed many German workers."
"As the 17th century European sugar industry was dominated by Amsterdam and Hamburg, the name was derived from the Dutch "suikerbakker" and the German "Zuckerbäcker", and it was variously written as sugar baker, sugar-baker, or sugarbaker."
"The vast majority of sugarbakers, escaping the lack of employment on the land and the consequent poverty, were unskilled labourers; stoking fires, unloading raw sugar, ladling boiling syrup, pouring bullocks’ blood, grinding animal charcoal, cleaning filters, filling moulds with hot sugar, loading ovens, etc. Skilled men were few, usually only the sugar boiler who ran the process and managed the men. In the larger refineries there would have been more than one boiler, but the "secrets" of the process were kept amongst "the few" in the early years. As mechanisation grew, more skilled men were required, but skilled in the management and maintenance of steam engines and specialist machinery rather than how sugar was refined."
(Sugarbakers - from Sweat to Sweetness, by Bryan Mawer, Anglo-German FHS, 2011. ISBN 978-09547632-7-5.)
In the 19thC there was serious unemployment within the German farming communities, particularly in Lower Saxony, north of Hanover. Young men were either recruited by sugarhouse managers or simply came to Britain seeking work. If they were not put up in the refinery men's room, they would likely lodge with fellow German refinery workers.
Liverpool ship owners soon became involved in the slave trade, sugar being the commodity they brought back to Britain on the third leg of their voyages. The first refinery was opened in the city about 1670 by a partnership led by a London refiner. The trade grew rapidly, firstly in what we now know as the city centre, and then moved north to the area around Vauxhall Road and Scotland Road. At the time Christian Fischer was there ,1861 and 1871, there were about a dozen refineries in Liverpool.
The living conditions for the labouring classes in Liverpool at that time was very poor ... courts, cellars, slums, etc.. For details try to find the excellent Liverpool - Our City, Our Heritage, by Freddy O'Connor, Bluecoat Press, 1990.
And lastly (sorry I could go on for a very long time ;D), for a graphic description of working conditions in a London sugarhouse c1876 go to www.mawer.clara.net/greenwood.html .
Far more detail on my website (see below).
Bryan.
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Thank you all SO much. I have spent some time today reading your site, Bryan, and I have to say that I am entirely knocked out. My poor old relatives! What a hideous life. I am so Home Counties that I make Penelope Keith sound like Arthur Mullard, and to think that my downtrodden old great great grandfather was slaving away in a Liverpool (of all places!) hell-hole makes me cry. I have also taken note that the German sugarbakers clustered together. How strange life is. I read every day, it seems, horrible stories of Migrants living in ghastly housing. Up until now, I have thought Whatever, but it strikes me that we haven't really moved on. Crikey, I am doing some soul-searching. Sorry to be boring.
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Absolutely fascinating, I must say.
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I'm sorry, Clarijo, but I'm afraid it doesn't get any better !!
Christian & Mary Fischer ...
** 1861 1 Union Place
Union Place was the middle of three courts (Bush Pl, Union Pl, Currie Pl) that the enumerator visited between Currie St and Ennerdale St. They don't show on the 1864 map and I wonder if they had been pulled down, having occupied part of a cleared site on the south side of Currie St.
This link will describe court dwellings - http://www.discover-liverpool.com/24/section.aspx/3
Currie St was almost a continuation of Gildart's Gardens, and this snip from "Squalid Liverpool (1883)", much quoted in 'Liverpool - Our City, Our Heritage', by Freddy O'Connor, Bluecoat Press, 1990, will describe the neighbourhood ...
"We will begin at the furthest end, and inspect some of the cross streets leading out of Bevington Bush. One of these was Gildart's Gardens, a garden in which luxuriant crops of vice, disease and suffering are growing. It is narrow, filthy and ruinous. The class of house to be found here does not differ from that abounding in squalid Liverpool. Cellar, parlour, bedroom, attick make up the residences in Gildart's Gardens.The property seems to be in a condition more dangerous than usual. Many of the walls can hardly stand much longer, and some day will tumble with a crash. Take Court No.6 for instance, a filthy little entry, where the houses have sunk many inches out of the perpendicular. At the end of this vile den there is a shippon and a steaming midden. ..."
** 1871 6 Free Church Row
This would appear to have been an improvement on Union Place. A terrace of six houses, I think in Wilbraham Place (not a court), and adjacent to the church.
Both locations on Google Maps -
Union Place ... enter Ennerdale St, and Union Place was on the green park immediately to the south of it.
Wilbraham Place is still there, about 500 yds north on the other side of Scotland Road.
Bryan
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Thank you so very much for this fascinating insight. My poor old ancestors. It amazes me that I am here at all. I will definitely try to get a copy of the book you recommend. It is high time I made a visit to Liverpool. Again, many thanks.
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Hi, I have been researching the Langrells in Ireland for years. There were several Mary Jane's and several John's. Somewhere along the way I did find a Gibraltar Langrell. I will look through what I have and see if I can find anything of interest to you.
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MY NAME IS LESLIE CARL FISHER..I AM A DESCENDANT OF WILLIAM CHRISTIAN AND MARY JANE LENGURILL. I TOO HAVE BEEN SEARCHING MANY YEARS THE FISHER FAMILY HISTORY.I WAS BORN IN LIVERPOOL ENGLAND,MY FATHER WAS HENRY FISHER,MY GRANDFATHER WAS NAMED WILLIAM CHRISTIAN FISHER....I SAW A POST BY A LADY CALLED "CLARIJO" WHO WAS ALSO SEARCHING FOR MARY JANE LENGURILL. AS I HAVE A BOX OF PAPERS RELATING TO HER SEARCH,I WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT HER TO SEE IF I CAN HELP...I THINK THAT WE ARE RELATED AFTER READING HER POST.. I LIVE IN SYDNEY AUSTRALIA.IF ANY ONE COULD HELP ME CONTACT"CLARIJO I WOULD HELP US BOTH IN THIS FAMILY SEARCH. REGARDS LESLIE.
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Thank you so very much for this fascinating insight. My poor old ancestors. It amazes me that I am here at all. I will definitely try to get a copy of the book you recommend. It is high time I made a visit to Liverpool. Again, many thanks.
Oh, good Lord! What further madness is this?!? I have just read the Wiki link (many thanks). what a strange place. All tenant farmers ejected: could be that Lengurill pere reinvented himself as a wine merchant? I just can't begin to imagine the circumstances to be honest. Probably have to draw a line in the sand here. You have been terrific: thank you SO MUCH.
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Hello both! How exciting: it looks as if you might be able to help with my Lengurill search, and to Leslie, yes, it looks as if we are related indeed. My great-grandmother was Edith, daughter of William Christian. How strange! Family is UK based, although we have strong Australian connections. My own mother was raised there. Best wishes, and look forward to hearing from you, Clari.
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Hello Clarijo,
Leslie has been trying to get in touch but had been having problems with his password, he has asked that I pass on his private email to you which I will do by private message.
Dear Leslie,
I am going to change your password and send you an email, many thanks for your letter and the 3 lovely postcards from Australia.
Regards
Sarah :)
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Hi, my family are Decendents of Mary Jane and "The Lodger" Hugo Heinrich A.K.A Henry Black. I have read she was born on Lambey Island Ireland, population in 1850 around 140, most of whom were chased off the Island to make way for English and Scots settlers. She married Christian Fischer on 16th December 1858, he passed away December 1872. She married Hugo Heinrich and was living at 28 Brock Street Kirkdale Liverpool in 1881. They then Ran a Fishmongers shop at 29 Walton Lane, which was called Fischers. It was still called Fischers until May 8th 1915, when it was destroyed during the anti-German Riots, caused by the sinking of the Lusitania. Coincidently, Hugo Heinrich married again, to a much younger woman called Anne Jones, they called their first son Charles Christian, he was sadly killed in Flanders fighting for The Liverpool Kings Regiment, aged 24, he died on 8th May 1917, having signed up in 1915, a few months before the attack on the shop.
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Hello, H C Schwarze! Yes, I knew some of this, but I had forgotten a lot of it. Two years ago, I went to the church in Lpool where Mary Jane and Christian were married and felt quite sentimental. Then a curate appeared and told me that most of it had been rebuilt after bombing. I went to Stanley Street where Mary Jane had lived with her father (a Wine Merchant! Hmm. I wonder) and her sister with the complicated name. I thought that The Lodger was a naphtha manufacturer? I didn't know he'd gone into the wet fish business. How strange. I knew nothing of Fischers on Walton Lane. I DID know about Anne Jones, but I can't remember how I know this or who told me. When did Mary Jane die? Do you know? Heartbreaking about Charles Christian poor thing.
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Hello Clarijo, Mary Jane died in March 1890, she and Hugo Henry had moved to 30 Rickman Street Kirkdale, ( it's still there) Hugo was a Chemist and had another shop with a work yard next to it, on the nearby Commercial Road were he Distilled Naptha,amongst other Chemicals. The shop on Walton Lane was also near to that Area,which was more of a General Store with fresh Fish as the Principle stock. Apparently,after the death of Annie Jones, his second wife, the squabbles between members of the family and due to his own failing health, Hugo Henry burnt his Will and the Deeds to the properties, he died in 1901. The shop on Walton Lane continued in the Fischer name until World War One, my Grandfather Fredrick was badly injured aged 11 trying to stop the attack on the shop, he was pushed under a Horse and Cart, he received a lot of broken bones, but survived and went on to join the R.A.F during World War Two. His Father, Henry Charles was sent to the Internment Camp on the Isle of Man for the rest of World War One, along with many more German Shop Keepers, I don't know at present if any of the Fischer side of the family were rounded up, a lot of German origin men were also sent to Camps in the Lake District.
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Thank you so much for this. I will pass it onto my mother when I see her tomorrow. She is 86 now, but in tremendous health - mentally and physically - and first-class recall of the past. I know she will be interested. Mary Jane was her great-great grandmother. Mary Jane's eldest son William (Wilhelm) Christian was her great-grandfather, and she remembers him. Not the easiest of people, by all accounts. I am very grateful to you.
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You are very welcome, I will forward you any further information or photos I may discover in the future regarding the Fischers/Lengurills, glad to hear your mother is still in fine fettle, my father is also in good health aged 84, still owns and drives a car occasionally, I hope thats something in the DNA. Good Luck,Good Health.
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Hi there, I've come to a brick wall and looking for help if possible.I'm a descendent on the Schwarze side. I'm trying to find out where Hugo Henry Schwarze 1831-1901 is buried and also his son Henry Charles (who was married to Ellen Stanton 1877-1951).
I have found Ellen she is buried with her father Thomas Stanton but can't piece the puzzle of what happened to her husband.
Henry Charles Schwarze 1874-1931.
There is another family member also called Henry C Schwarze 1930-1931 who died the same year. I have found him in an unmarked grave.
I'm in Liverpool looking for the next few weeks!
Many thanks in advance
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Hi Suzi! I wonder whether you are aware of this link< http://www.merseysiderollofhonour.co.uk/obits/14/149172.php
In the meantime I will make further enquiries.
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Suzi, he is buried at Lijssenthoik (spelling?) in Belgium. Military cemetery.
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Hi Clarijo,
Many thanks for your information. Yes thank you, I am aware of Christian. Very sad story. I started searching for him after my mum found a letter addressed to his parents informing of his death. A few years ago I wrote to Liverpool town hall as I could not find Charles C Schwarze on any memorial in Liverpool. In January 2014 they kindly invited our family to a memorial service at the town hall and added Christian to their Roll of Honour in the hall of remembrance.
I'm looking for Christian's father and step brother Henry Schwarze (my mums grandfather, who was married to Ellen Stanton) I'm Trying to locate where they are buried, I have found Ellen in her fathers grave but sadly cannot find her husband Henry Schwarze. It's a mystery. Family tell me they may have separated.
regards,
Suzi
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Hi everyone. Sorry I'm late to the party! I am also a descendant of Mary's! Mary and Hugo Henry Schwarze are my great-great-great-grandparents. Their son Henry Schwarze married Ellen Stanton, they had a daughter called Mary who married Francis Lawton, and together they had a daughter Patricia, and Patricia was my paternal grandmother.
i have only just started putting together my family tree today, and this is the first time I've heard of the name Lengurill. So i decided to google the name as i'd never heard of it before, and i found this thread! Thanks for all the information so far! i also have Mary down as both Gibraltar and Ireland. Very confusing. I have connected to others through the Ancestry website tonight, and i think maybe a couple of you are in this thread too. Hello distant relatives!!!
if i find any new information i'll let you know. I'm going to go back through this thread tomorrow and look at the links that have been posted. Thank you so much!
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Hi again. i have checked the spelling of this surname again. It looks like 'Lengurill' on the marriage certificate of Mary and Christian Fischer, but her father John's surname spelled 'Laughill' on the marriage certificate between Mary and Hugo Schwarze. I have also found another spelling of Lengurell. I'll keep going...............
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Hi Nicola, sorry for the late posting, I haven't been on this thread or Ancestry for awhile. I do know that Frank Lawton was a Taxi Driver and Lived in Gilroy Road with Ellen and cared for Henry Charles Schwarze at this address, until Henry died there in 1931. I believe Frank died in his Taxi of a Heart attack, parked at the Gates outside Yew Tree Cemetery, and Ellen's demise was extremely tragic, falling from a window at Woodstock Gardens, in 1941. Ellen was known in the family as Nellie, and apparently was quite strict, and dressed in black most of the Time, as a lot of widows did in those days. Sorry this reply is a bit on the morbid side, Good Luck with the Family Tree.