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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: LeonardRileyIII on Friday 14 November 14 23:05 GMT (UK)
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A friend in Dublin recently found information on James Porter who was Schoolmaster with the
56th Regiment (Foot) who served most of his time in India. He was separated from service
4 NOV 1884 with 20 years 290 days of service of which 10 were in India. He was released
because his services were no longer needed. Have copies of news articles about his attempts to
receive pension.
Seeking someone who lives near Kew who would be willing to exchange research time with Maria
who lives in Dublin and can search information there. Trying to determine if this James Porter might be father of James Henry Porter born 1841/43 in Corbally, Antrim, Ireland.
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Hi
Looking at the dates you give - he would have been signing up when James Henry Porter was around 20yrs old
If he was the father of a son born around 1841 - he himself would have been born around 1820
Looking at his service period - he appears to have signed on roughly late 1863 so would have been around 42 at that time. Would that have been feasible?
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Dear Carole, At this moment I have no age information on the individual referenced in the three articles. The first article is a register of Schoolmasters which lists as follows: 56th Regiment (sic foot soldiers) rank
:Sch" James H. Porter who was discharged 16 APR 1880 following 20 years + 290 days of service. (joined roughly 1859) Registry No. 70497-57. Remarks undecipherable. According to a newspaper article in the Dublin Freeman Journal dated 4 NOV 1884, James Henry Porter, late Army Schoolmaster, was seeking a pension from the Army which was denied him for unfavorable drinking. If you can provide an e-mail address I can forward these documents to you.
I do have the induction papers of James Henry Porter born 12 FEB 1841 (his sister-in-law wrote in an 1871 diary that J.H. Porter was 28 on 12 FEB 1871), His papers, found in KEW PRO state that he was
born in Corbally, Parish of Killead, Co. Antrim. No parish records have been found to confirm this birth. According to this James's marriage record dated 14 APR 1869 in Wexford, Ireland James's father was also named James and was listed as "Gent". I have found a James Porter age 19 stationed in Tunbridge, Kent on the 1861 census who was born in Ireland. His rank was "Sey". He was stationed at North Barracks Walmer. On his 14 APR 1869 marriage license his residence was Tunbridge Wells.
I am hoping that KEW PRO might have some information on the date and place of birth of the James Henry Porter, School master. I agree with you logic, he might have been born around 1820. Since I can
find no record of him in Antrim I am inclined to believe he might have been transient, i.e. stationed there, rather than having been born there. There are many Porters in Antrim but none match James Henry.
I have considerable documentation on James born 1841/43. Now seeking information on his father James and identification of his mother. Maria O'Brien who lives in Dublin has offered to do local research
for person who lives near KEW.
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I am not clear what it is that you want looking up at TNA Kew (Not Kew Gardens that is something else ;) )
You say 'Trying to determine if this James Porter might be father of James Henry Porter born 1841/43 in Corbally, Antrim, Ireland'
Is this the same person
I do have the induction papers of James Henry Porter born 12 FEB 1841 (his sister-in-law wrote in an 1871 diary that J.H. Porter was 28 on 12 FEB 1871), His papers, found in KEW PRO state that he was born in Corbally, Parish of Killead, Co. Antrim
There is a mention of a James Porter with the same birthdate and place of birth on the Civil Service evidence of age indexes but I have no idea what these records would tell you if you obtained a copy
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e6s/
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I have found a James Porter age 19 stationed in Tunbridge, Kent on the 1861 census who was born in Ireland. His rank was "Sey". He was stationed at North Barracks Walmer. On his 14 APR 1869 marriage license his residence was Tunbridge Wells.
The 1861 census for North Barracks, Walmer his occupation is an abbreviation for Sergeant (in the Army). Tunbridge Wells is just under 50 miles from Walmer .
A mention of the North Barracks :)
http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/history/history-marines.html
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Good morning, Sorry about the mis identification of KEW Gardens. My daughter Wendy and I have been there several times and mistakenly assumed it was called KEW Gardens.
What I am trying to determine is if the James Henry Porter, school master who served in the Army from approximately 1859 until 16 APR 1880 could be the father of James Henry Porter, Revenue Officer, who was born 12 FEB 1841/43 in Corbally, County Antrim, Ireland. The pay records at KEW might at least give
his dates and place of service. News article said he served about 10 years in India. Could records at KEW tell if he was ever stationed/lived in Kent County England or Antrim, Ireland?
It is most unfortunate that the name James Porter is extremely common. When searching for the death
record for James Henry Porter, Revenue Officer, we found 65 James Porters who died during the period that our James could have died. His time and place of death remained a mystery for over 20 years until we finally found an obituary notice in a Wexford Newspaper of his son. Article said he was the youngest
son of the late James Porter of Portland, Oregon, USA.
Wendy and I have been to the NIPRO numerous time, checked census records, parish records and land records for County Antrim and even visited the church for the Parish of Killead. Found numerous Porter families but none seem to match which makes me believe the father of James Henry Porter, Revenue Officer, might not have lived in Corbally for a long period of time. perhaps assigned there as a teacher?
Thank you for verifying that "Ser" was an abbreviation for Sergeant. Age 19 seems pretty young to have been a Sergeant, at least in our U.S. Military. Is it likely that James could have been in the Army in Kent and then inducted into the Inland Revenue in County Antrim 15 NOV 1865? He was instructed in procedures for surveying maltsters, distillers, brewers, tobacco manufacturers, spirit retailers, tobacco dealers and mills and kilns. I did find a James Porter on the English 1851 census who had a son James born about 1842. The father was a Gardener. The whole family was born in Tonbridge, Kent. The son was 5 so would have only been 15 on the 1861 census. Also found a James Porter age 38, living in Southwick with his wife Elizabeth and son James age 9. Father might have been a tobacconist? Whole family was born in Southwick. So many options to chose from!!! I will check your site for Walmer. Thank you. Bill
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Hi
The train station is called Kew Gardens that is probably what confuses people. The gardens are in the opposite direction to TNA but about the same distance from the station. :)
I would agree with you that 19 is young for a Sergeant maybe it stands for something else :-\
The information you have about James Henry appears on Chelsea Pensioners discharge list but I can't see any pension information online. It looks as though the comment in behaviour column could be 'indifferent' Do the newspaper articles you have give any indication as to why he was fighting for a pension.
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Yes, the newspaper article did indicate that he was denied a pension because of unfavorable conduct caused by drinking during a latter part of his career. Indicates he was confined, without a trial. The decision was there was not enough evidence to reverse the decision and thus grant him a pension. I can
forward the article to you if you can give me an e-mail address or tell me how to attach it to this site.
If Ser was not an abbreviation for Sergeant, do you have any idea what it could stand for? Bill
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As the census description is followed by Corpl and Private on the people who were listed after him I can't think of anything else it would be.
I can't see any more information for them online.
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Carole,
After reading your last message I did a Google search on Chelsea Pensioners Discharge List and found
several sites. Gave a lot of general information about who would be on the list, anyone who received a
pension. Some people were eligible after only 12 years of service. Others earlier if retired due to injury. Yet James Henry Porter probably wouldn't be on the list even though he served almost 21 years, because
of his unfavorable conduct. It stated that since they did not have photography they had to give a good physical description of the individual to avoid fraud. Also said where as census data only includes one line
of data about a person these files often contained 4 to 6 pages of data.
On another site I was able to actually search for people by name either by date of birth or date of retirement. I found about six James Porters born between 1815 and 1825. Did a census check of those
and found they also appeared in 1871 and 1881 census and some were coal miners, etc. or had children
that did not match our James born 1841/43. Just for kicks also checked those who retired. Believe there
were something like 124 entries over a much longer period of time. Again nothing popped out.
If the Chelsea list includes James Henry Porter even though he did not draw a pension, would there
still be records at the Kew PRO? Would these show where he was born and or stationed? Maria O'Brien
found an article which gave a good description of the 56th Regiment -Foot Soldiers. It appears they went
to India during a massacre shortly after James Henry Porter enlisted, around 30 JUN 1859. Believe they
deployed 1860. Why would they take a schoolmaster? Did the army take dependents with them when they deployed. When I was assigned to Bangkok, Thailand 1968-70 I did take my wife and kids with me
and our three children attended the International School of Bangkok (ISB). Best education they ever
received. Bill
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Hi Bill,
Sorry to intrude on your post but you say
"On another site I was able to actually search for people by name either by date of birth or date of retirement"
Could you possibly tell me which site you used? I have struggled with the Kew website, and wonder if there is another which could help me find pension records for a couple of my soldier ancestors.
Cheers
Maggs
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Good morning Maggs,
No intrusion at all! The more input the better. In Google search engine I typed in "Chelsea Pensioners' service" and ended up with numerous listings. One was "Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760 to 1913. Another was "United Kingdom, Chelsea Pensioners' Service Records, 1760" The first site just gives a history of the Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records. Site was updated 17 NOV 2014. It tells what information was kept but you can not search names on this site.
The second site that I listed enables you to access at least their index. Search Collection - Deceased Ancestor's Name and you can search by "birth" or by "pension". This search gives date and place of birth. According to the first site, since pictures were not then available the records gave a physical description of the pensioner and 4 to 6 pages of data. A person could receive a pension after 12 years of service or even earlier if separated due to an injury. Unfortunately in the case I am searching the individual completed 20 years of service but was separated "because services were no longer needed" and also had
a undesirable conduct entry so was never given a pension. Can't win them all. Good Luck. Bill
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Dear Maggs,
I just received the following note from Maria O'Brien who lives in Dublin:
I located the Chelsea Pensioners record on findmypast.co.uk. Of course I had to purchase it but was really good value as you pay less than 10e for unlimted use of UK records for one month. And you can do one month at a time with no obligation to continue paying it.
I went to the site but did not see the Chelsea list, only place to search for Military Records. If you wish,
you can write to Maria at: (*) . Bill
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Bill
Could I suggest that you remove the email address for Maria.
The Record Set you are looking for on Findmypast is British Army Service Records 1760-1915 which includes records often referred to as Chelsea Pension records. As far as I'm aware Findmypast (a subscription site) is the only site that has the actual surviving Service Records for this period
Andy
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Andy, I tried to delete Maria's address in the message above. Could not do it so sent a message to the moderator, asking that he/she remove Maria's address. Believe I ran in to this problem about a year ago
when corresponding with Kevin Meade of Ireland. He suggested an alternate means of communicating. Bill
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Hi Bill
You should be able to modify your post for up to 24 hours. The modify button is to the top right hand side of your post.
Findmypast.co.uk has a subscription offer at the moment You can subscribe for 1 GBP for a month, this will give you access to all the Service Records on their site. Just make sure that once you have subscribed you untick the auto-renew.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/november-offer (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/november-offer)
The link below has information about researching records for a British Soldier up to 1913.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierupto1913.htm (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/britisharmysoldierupto1913.htm)
Andy
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Andy, Thank you for the information. Will try to delete Maria's address. But this doesn't solve Maggs problem. Maria did subscribe to the Findmypast.co.uk web page and immediately found what we were
looking for. I am sure she could help Maggs if the two could get together. I will forward these messages
to Maria. Bill
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Hi Bill
You need to be careful, Findmypast Terms and Conditions state what a subscriber can or can't do, and lookups for someone else was not allowed.
The subscription link I sent was for you, generally once The National Archives (at Kew) have entered into an arrangement with a commercial site to digitize records and put them online you can't access the originals, someone going to Kew and looking up Chelsea Pensioner records will just use one of their computers to access the commercial site.
Andy
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Hi everyone,
Sorry - haven't been online at all today - busy one! Thanks to all for trying to answer my query about "Pension records".
I had previously found one ancestors original military discharge info on findmypast - full of interesting stuff - including a comment on the front page - i.e. "Free to modified pension after 18 years service...." - so I presumed that there might be somewhere actual records of where his pension payments were paid... I have in fact two ancestors with similar story- and neither of them ended up "retiring" to the city/country they stated on their discharge records... so if they actually had pensions paid somewhere I might be able to trace their eventual "residence".???
I had actually just keyed in the persons name and clicked on military records, and the discharge records seemed to be the only thing there - in fact I have never seen any mention of "Chelsea Pension records" on the site. Will have to go back and give it another try! If not there I am still bewildered about whether the actual pension records are available - ?? National Archives or not?
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Again, my apologies, I did not mean to "hijack" the original post!!
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Don't give up on find my past. Maria was able to locate the person she was looking for even though he
served 20 years as Army school master yet was denied a pension. I believe she found his age and place
of birth which lead to a census report giving his parents. So persistence paid off. Bill
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Maria was able to locate the person she was looking for even though he served 20 years as Army school master yet was denied a pension. I believe she found his age and place
of birth which lead to a census report giving his parents.
I am intrigued, where was he born & when
Rosie :)
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Rosie, I am not sure what information Maria got off findmypast or from Kew PRO. She did find him on the
1881 census for Tower of London, White Chapel, County London. He was listed as James Henry Porter age 40, retired Army Schoolmaster born in Scotland. On page 2 of the census it said he was single. The census also listed his father, James Porter age 72 who was born in Ireland. If James Henry was 40, i.e. born 1841, then he entered the Army at age 18. Bill
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Now I am confused ;D
I thought we were looking for James Henry Porter the retired Army Schoolmaster as a possible father for James Henry Porter born 12 FEB 1841 born in Corbally, Parish of Killead, Co. Antrim.
The James Henry in 'The Tower' bn c1841 was born Scotland :-\
For a minute I thought perhaps he had been locked in The Tower of London ;D
I have just read your first post again and see I needn't be confused but at least you have eliminated the Schoolmaster as the father of James bn Ireland.
Rosie :)
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Yes sadly the school master has been eliminated. Not surprised though. I found about 3 James Henry
Porters and as many as 124 James Porters who could have been born around the right time, so it would
have been a wonderful miracle had the school master been the father of our James born 1841/43. So now we start again. I do thank you and the other responders for your help. Bill
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Update on search for James Porter born 12 FEB 1841 in Corbally, Killead, Antrim. According to Ireland Diocesan and Prerogative Will and Admin indexes 1595-1858 entry #5699 James Porter "86" Antrim Will and Inventory lists Elizth Porter alias Harkness executrix. Looks like it was probated 5 OCT 1840. Eliza subsequently married John Sherwood 15 DEC 1845 Killead COI Antrim. Eliza and John had four children. Their eldest, Jane, was born abt. 1849 in Antrim and died 9 MAY 1882 at her residence, Church Street, Antrim. She was interred at the family burying ground at Churchyard, Antrim. A sibling Mary was also buried at Churchyard, Antrim 29 MAY 1918. How do I locate this cemetery.