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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Mundell on Wednesday 12 November 14 16:18 GMT (UK)
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I am posting this on Midlothian Section as this person lived most of his life there.
On June 20th 1893 at Buckhaven, Fife, James Walton was born to Jessie Walton. No father is mentioned but at the side of this record there is a comment regarding paternity that I cannot quite make out. Can anyone help me with this entry?
If there was a paternity claim, where might I find out more about it and would there be any documentary records that I can access?
It looks as though James was then brought up by Jessie’s sister, my Grandmother and her husband, Alison (Alice, nee Walton) and Walter Marsden
On the 1901 Newcastle census James is listed as a son i.e. James MARSDEN. Might this just be an assumed surname? Might there be a formal adoption and if so, how can I access this information?
In 1895 at Stockton-on-Tees Alice and Walter’s first son, Walter, was born and he also appears on the 1901 census along with another younger son, Richard, born in Edinburgh.
Alice and Walter Marsden then had 2 more children, Janet and Sam. Alice was subsequently widowed and remarried Robert Glendinning MUNDELL in 1909 in Leith. They had one daughter, Robina.
The 1911 Leith Census lists all of the children as step-children surnamed MARSDEN, except the final daughter of this couple, Robina MUNDELL.
Robert Glendinning Mundell died in WW1 and I have found his war grave in Weymouth
Walter Marsden (Jnr) died on 10th March 1918 and his war grave is at Tincourt New British Cemetery, France. However, he is listed as Walter MUNDELL, (not Marsden).
I understand that James also died in WW1 but have been unable to locate any information of his whereabouts. I don’t know if he enlisted as WALTON, MARSDEN or MUNDELL.
Can anyone help me find out what happened to James?
My Grandmother mourned and spent part of every subsequent Armistice Day thinking of these three losses, for the rest of her life.
My thanks for any responses. Mundell
Image cropped , copyright
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Hi Mundell,
If you go back to Scotlandpeoples website, threshold be an option to pay an extra 2 credits to look at the RCE (Register of Corrected Entries), should give the info you require there.
Tom
NB corrected to 2 credits.
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Hello Mundell,
The abbreviated note in the margin of James Walton's BC reads:
Paternity of Child found by Decree of Court.
See Register of Corrected Entries (RCE) Volume 4? Page 184.
Dated 10th February, 1894 & Initialled by Registrar.
Looks like she won a paternity case in which case the father's name would be added to BC.
As per tidybooks post, bring up BC again. At the top of the page alongside View Page Before/View Page After Buttons, there should be a View RCE button. I think it's 2 Credits to view.
Good luck with your search.
Regards, Dod.
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Hi Mundell,
if my friends can correct me if I am wrong but in those days adoption did not need any paperwork, I had an Aunt who was adopted by my Gran and I am sure that was it no solicitor or anyone.
Do you know what Regiments they were in and their Army numbers.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Mundell ,
Looking at Scotlandspeople , Minor Records 1914 - 1921(including Service Returns) -
No deaths showing James Walton or James Marsden b. c1893.
One death showing for a James Mundell age 19(b. c1896) but this seems to be -
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/681723/MUNDELL,%20JAMES%20EDGAR
CWGC has no likely J. Mundell deaths , don't think he would have used that surname anyway.
ev
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I have been away so I apologise for this delay
My thanks to everyone who has responded to this query.
I have now purchased more credits with 'scotlandspeople' and have the corrected information regarding paternity. This document refers twice to the mother as 'Poor Jessie Walton', and I wonder why the term 'Poor' was applied.
Regarding the whereabouts of James Walton/Marsden/Mundell, I am no further forward. I do not know what regiments or any service numbers, and cannot find any death certificates in the Scottish records. Any further suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks again. Mundell
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The term poor would have been used to show that she satisfied the conditions for what was the equivalent of " legal aid"
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Thank you R.J. Paton. That is a fine explanation.
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Comment to Archie 'Templar75'
Thanks for your suggestion regarding an assumed surname.
James's 'brother', Walter Marsden is listed as Walter Mundell on his war grave marker at Tincourt New British Cemetery, France, so presumably any death certificate would be in this name.
Wouldn't a birth certificate or formal name change document have to be presented for a death certificate, or were the rules more relaxed in those earlier years?
Regards, Mundell
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Hi
I would have thought that if James, was still using the name, Marsden, at the age of 18 he would have kept that name, if the other 2 children were younger, they would have probably, took the name of there stepfather, there we no checks at this time, and even to this day, anyone can change there name, without ant legal requirements, has long has it is not for fraudulent use.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/change-of-name.htm
Margp
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Thank you very much MARGP.
That has been a great help. The link explains a lot and will be useful for other uncertainties within my family research.
Mundell
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my friends can correct me if I am wrong but in those days adoption did not need any paperwork
Absolutely right. There was no formal legal adoption procedure in Scotland until about 1930.
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I wonder why the term 'Poor' was applied.
The term poor would have been used to show that she satisfied the conditions for what was the equivalent of " legal aid"
It might also imply that she was a pauper, and therefore that she might have been on the Register of Poor. If so, and the record has survived, it might contain quite a lot of information about her.
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Hello Mundell,
hope you had a good rest ( Break ), my uncle was killed on D-Day+1 at Normandy and when I searched SP there is no death record for him, I can only assume that because these brave lads were killed in action they would have been buried under the Flag ( Union Jack ), so there may be a death record in England for them. Only a suggestion.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hello Archie,
Did you try Minor Records on SP? I found both my Grandfather (WW1) and Uncle (WW2) listed in Minor Records/Service Returns. Although included in a list of soldiers the heading at top of page gives year & name followed by [Statutory Deaths 151/AF 00--]
Details on the sheet are: Reg. Number, Rank, Name (in full), Age, Country of Birth, Date of Death, Place of Death & Cause of Death.
I knew both Grandfather & Uncle Jim served with the Argylls. I also knew their Reg. Numbers & date of their deaths, which made them easy to find.
My apologies to Mundell for hi-jacking his thread. Good luck to you both in your searches.
Regards, Dod.
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Thanks Forfarian , Archie and Dod.
Forfarian - I will follow up your suggestion regarding Register of Poor.
Archie - I was just beginning to wonder about English records as several years ago that is where I had found my Scottish Grandfather - Robert Glendinning Mundell who died in 1915. I had forgotten that option. So, will pursue that.
Dod - you're welcome to use this thread as all who respond add information which enhances my education in these matters. Rootschatters have been very helpful over time.
Thanks again, folks. Mundell
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Hello Dod and Mundell,
Dod thanks for the advice and I will pursue it, however I know how he died and where, his number and his Ship the sad thing is I think he was buried at Sea for all that was left of him. His name is marked down at Plymouth.
Mudell thanks for your very kind understanding it is appreciated.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hello Mundell & Archie,
An earlier thread by Lisajb, Topic: Death certificates for soldiers killed in action.
This thread has some useful information regarding Servicemen's DCs, including an example from SP of the AIF form I referred to in my post. Also has a link to FindMyPast where I believe DCs can be viewed. Might be the same as SP but surely next-of-kin would have been issued with some form of DC. Might be worth a look.
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/british-nationals-armed-forces-deaths-1796-2005
Regards, Dod.
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Findmy past does not have such death certificates, only the GRO index to them. They have to be obtained from the English GRO. Certificates can be viewed on Scotlandspeople but that's because it's an official GROS site.
Imber
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Hi Imber, Archie and Dod.
Imber:- I did not know that was why the actual record images are not available on FindMyPast, and I suppose Ancestry too. It is great to be able to access the actual record on SP but I wish this service did a subscription as one can make expensive mistakes.
Dod:- Thanks for that link which took me straight to the section. I entered a combination of James Walton/Marsden/Mundell and got a lot of hits, so it looks as though I will have to renew my subscription to explore these. Also, I looked up Ancestry, and it looks as though I should subscribe again there too.
Archie:- The name of another of my uncles is on the Plymouth Memorial too. He went down on HMS Glorious and the records of that incident were sealed. However, I got a lot of information from the Imperial War Museum and also by just putting 'HMS Glorious' into my browser I accessed some other references.
Thanks for all your help, folks. Mundell
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It is great to be able to access the actual record on SP but I wish this service did a subscription
Don't we all! Unfortunately the charges are set by the Scottish Government, so getting it changed would be a long process. Just be glad it's so much cheaper than getting the corresponding detail from most parts of the world.
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Hi Forfarian,
Too right. I had to get info. from the USA and many of the States are either not digitized or way behind in the process. Buying the documents I wanted was very expensive.
At least being able to see and download the images is a thrill.
I recently completed another survey on SP and it looks as though a family tree maker might be on the cards.
If as many of us as possible complete the SP surveys and suggest a subscription/credit system, we might eventually get there. Mundell
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I recently completed another survey on SP and it looks as though a family tree maker might be on the cards.
If as many of us as possible complete the SP surveys and suggest a subscription/credit system, we might eventually get there.
Yes. But I don't see the point in SP offering a tree building facility - there are hundreds of existing sites and programs to do that already, so why should SP devote resources to adding another one?
I'd far rather SP concentrated on doing the things only they can do, like adding mothers' maiden surnames to earlier birth and death indexes, ironing out some of quirks of the search (though to be fair most of the quirks are in the in-house search system not the online one), adding place of birth to the census indexes and so on.
If we all replied to the survey saying 'yes' to just the few options we really, really want, they would get a very clear indication what to concentrate on. If we all say 'yes' to all or most of the options in their survey, they aren't going to get a clear idea of what their customers would prefer.
Sorry, I've got a bit off-topic!
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Hi Forfarian and Mundell,
you are correct saying that SP should remain the way it but as you said iron out bits here and there, SP has to be the cheapest in the world not only that it has a great system whereby any documents have the parents names and trades on them, I will never fault it.
I joined Ancestry UK and find that what I pay for is very good plus the Tree Maker as well, it helps join the world together and finding relations here and there.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Forfarian and Archie.
I certainly don't disagree with your comments. These are the tools at out disposal - none are perfect, but the combination of resources pretty will get us there. Rootschat has been a good assist.
I too have used the tree maker on Ancestry but find the Scottish records available more difficult to access and transferring information from SP a bit tortuous. Perhaps the limitation is mine!
Meanwhile, I'm still searching for James, so back to the grindstone.
Good luck with your own endeavours. Mundell