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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Valeriemagan on Wednesday 12 November 14 08:47 GMT (UK)
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Does anyone have evidence of the eldest son of the Dineley-Goodere family of Charlton Manor, who was killed in a dual. There were three sons from Sir Edward Goodere. "Eldest son -can't find his name anywhere in documents, but apparently he was killed in a "dual"? Second son was Sir John Dineley Goodere, who inherited Charlton Manor after his mother died (she was a Dineley) and his father Sir edward Goodere died aged 90. Third son was Samuel Goodere, captain of the Ruby naval ship, he murdered his brother Sir John Dineley Goodere, and Samuel was hung in Bristol for the murder. So, three sons, but I can,t find evidence of the eldest son dying in a dual in Ireland. Can anyone help?
Valerie
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Welcome to RootsChat! ;D
Do you have any dates?
And where is Charlton Manor? Country, county, town?
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From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodere_baronets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Edward_Goodere,_1st_Baronet
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is it Greenwich,London
ADDED
OK thanks KGarrad
Charlton,Worcesteshire
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A tree on Ancestry has the eldest son as Francis Goodyere, born 1681, died 1709 in Ireland.
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hmm ..KGarrad - what does ESQ mean on a baptism
George
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ1J-JPL
and is this John 2 years later ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJ1J-V9D
and Samuel ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1JD-2PK
Edward
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N114-6ZZ
Henry
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JS6H-XQJ
that looks to me like 5 sons to Edward - without Francis - so did he have 6 sons ?? or am I being a bit green - is ESQ a title on baptisms ?
cheers
added
I can`t find a Francis Dineley / Goodere baptism on Familysearch
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Esquire was formerly used as a form of rank, lower than Knights and Baronets.
Sir William Camden, Clarenceux King of Arms (1551–1623), defined esquires as:
the eldest sons of knights and their eldest sons in perpetuity,
the eldest sons of younger sons of peers and their eldest sons in perpetuity,
esquires so created by the king,
esquires by office, such as justices of the peace and those holding an office of trust under the crown.
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Thanks
is this your Francis Goodere b 1681 ?? same village as the baptisms
if so he died aged 5
so the Goodere that died in a duel wasn`t the Eldest - it was one of the other sons ?...am I right ?
George / Edward or Henry ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDCM-Z57
ADDED actually - there is something wrong here if on Ancestry it states Francis died in Ireland in 1709 ??...was there a SECOND Francis born after 1686 , and if so why is he not on those baptisms in Cropthorne ??...he would not be the eldest if born after 1686 ??...I am a bit puzzled ?
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The Wikipedia entry (which has some issues re accuracy!) says:
They had three sons.
He was succeeded by his eldest surviving son, Sir John Dineley Goodere, 2nd Baronet, who was later strangled on board HMS Ruby, a crime for which his younger brother Samuel was executed.
The third son was killed in a duel.
The History of Parliament Online says Edwards probably wasn't born in India, but doesn't mention any children; just 3 sons and 1 daughter.
And: Before his death, 29 Mar. 1739, one of his three sons was killed in a duel; the younger, a captain in the Royal Navy, was executed for the murder of his elder brother in 1741.
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There were definitely three sons - an old reliable Google book written by a relative of the Dineley goodere family tells the whole story of the trial of Samuel murdering Sir John, his brother, wherein is just mention of the eldest son (no name) as being killed in a dual. I just cannot find evidence of his name and circumstances of the dual. It would just be nice to find.
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Hello,
There are a number of siblings to Sir John Dineley Goodere and Samuel Goodere, the fraticide brothers, but most of them are not mentioned in the various reports of the murder or in subsequent printed pedigrees.
In fact there were 6 sons and 3 daughters born to Sir Edward Goodere (Goodier, Goodyere & variations) and Eleanor Dineley.
The one you are looking for evidence of is Edward Goodere the eldest surviving son at his death, which was probably between June 1702 and September 1706. He was born in Charlton, Worcestershire and baptised in Cropthorne, Worcestershire on the 5th June 1684.
About the only things I have ever found for him is his baptism record and the mention of his death in a duel while serving in the army in Ireland in the fraticide publications. Mostly these are in reference to the promotion of John Goodere to be the heir to the Dineley estate and his subsequent name change to Dineley or Dineley Goodere, as stipulated in his grandfather's Will. However, there is no other contemporary mention of Edward Dineley that I have ever come across.
Neil
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For reference, Frances was a girl who married her cousin and died between 1703 and 1706.
The link to the death given earlier was to a Francis who died in 1786, not 1686.
;)
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Just went back over my notes and Edward Dinely Goodyer is confirmed as a Cornet in Lord Cutts's Regiment of Guards, sometime between 1702 and 1706. Lord Cutts was the Commander in Chief in Ireland from 23rd March 1705.
Neil
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It is believed the son killed in Ireland was Edward. He is not mentioned in the Will because he had already died.
The younger brothers (mentioned in a Will) were John Dineley Goodere, George Goodere, Samuel Goodere and Henry Goodere. They also had a sister Eleanor, and Samuel had a daughter called Eleanor by his first wife. This daughter Eleanor married William Wyborn from whom I am descended.
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Edward Dineley Goodere was baptised at Cropthorne, Worcester on 5th June 1684, son of Edward Goodere. He matriculated Christ church, 27th June 1702 aged 16, which doesn't quite tie in with his baptism date.
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Thank you to cherry exile. I have made further searches in Worcester record office and the sons George and Henry are mentioned in the baptism register. I can find no mention of their deaths. I also found Edward the first son who was killed in Ireland. Do you have any image document you could let me have, mentioning his death in Ireland? I would be so grateful, as I live near Charlton and the story fascinates me.
Regards, Valerie Magan
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Mention of the duel is in a book called Broken Lives by Lawrence Stone, about famous divorces,in the chapter about John Dineley Goodere who was murdered by his brother and my ancestor Samual Goodere. The son's name isn't given but I guessed it was Edward after his father, grandfather.
George must have died before Samuel otherwise Samuel would not have expected to "inherit" next in line from John Dineley Goodere and John's son or sons (who died young).
I had a quote for copy papers from the National Archives but it was over £1,000 so I didn't go ahead. I believe they can be viewed free by anyone willing to travel to Kew.
The murder trial /witness statements are easy to find by using a browser.
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Henry was the second husband of Grace Bright (nee Lawrence). They had no children that I can find and Henry died in March 1733 and was buried on the 16th in Cropthorne. I don't have a death for George, but by a series of generations of the name George Dinely Goodere I believe there are descendents alive today.
As for Edward's death, there is no record (that I have found) of a burial, so I presume it must have been in Ireland (if that is where the duel and death took place), but Edward was not mentioned as an heir in the tail of his father's Baronetcy when he succeeded to such on 5th December 1707, so must have been dead by then.
A lot of the stuff I have is either originals or copies of the various Fraticide descriptions or photocopies of documents from various archives, rather than digital copies. However, since you are familiar with Evesham then the Barnard Collection in Evesham Library is a good place to start; he collected some lovely peripheral information to the whole Dineley/Dingley family as well as the Gooderes. Equally the 'Broken Lives' book is a pretty comprehensive coverage of the murder itself (it is always available on e-Bay) and in particular the eratic John Dinely. Samuel Goodere isn't very well covered in either, nor is John Dinely's wife.
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As for George, if his and Samuel's birth details are correct, then there is an obvious discrepancy in the motive for Samuel having any right to inheritance of any Dineley estates - since George was older. However, George's eldest son was not born until 1741 (after the Fraticide), so Samuel may have believed that he would be bestowed the property. I think it is just one small example why the story as portrayed by John Foote some years later may not entirely be relied upon.
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Does anyone have details about the allegation that Samuel Goodere and his older brother John Dinely Goodere each served 6 months (in the same year) as Mayor of Evesham. Apparently they had a physical fight, with one throwing the other one out of the chair (or out of office).
There is a Jarret Smith on the list of Mayors of Evesham, which is the name of the solicitor in Bristol involved in events immediately prior to Sir John Dinely Goodere's murder.
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Yes I do, but not to hand.
It isn't quite true. From memory, John was elected, but failed to make much of an attendance, so Samuel assumed the position. They had a (another) falling out when fighting over physically sitting in the same chair at a function as they both claimed to be the Mayor.
I will have to go back over my records and post something more comprehensive.
Neil
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The Mayor of Evesham co uk website has photographs of the Mayors of Evesham name boards, with a transcription of dates and names beneath, which show that in 1733 Samuel Goodere was Mayor for the first half, and John Dinely Esq was Mayor for the second half of the year. I am descended from Samuel Goodere through his daughter Eleanor who married William Wyborn of Shoulden, Kent.
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Sorry I got the election the wrong way around in my previous note.
The original story is outlined by Samuel Foote, the nephew of the two brothers, in his (not always strictly factual) pamphlet "Memoirs of the Life of Sir John Dineley Goodere, Bart.,", but some information from the Historian E.A.B.Barnard from his weekly local history column in the Evesham newspaper published in the first half of the 20th Century matches some of this to Evesham records. My best interpretation of the most likely series of events is,
Samuel had lost his Captaincy in the Navy and was offered the opportunity to get it back from a candidate for the Evesham MP elections in return for getting his brother and father to support the candidate's election (they had considerable influence in the area). Samuel then found out that the candidate was not in a position to do as he promised, so switched his allegiance to a rival candidate. His brother and father, having given their oaths to the first, refused to switch sides, and the three fell out. Samuel resolved to get himself elected Mayor, probably in order to further influence the election, and was duly elected. It seems he got no further success in getting his candidate elected and probably left the area, for he was elected Mayor on 28th August 1733 and was sworn into office on 2nd October. However, records apparently show that, Samuel never sat as Mayor at any of the deliberations of the Council and on 23rd April 1734 John Dineley was sworn in as Mayor. He signed the minutes of a meeting held on the 7th August and remained in office until the following October.
The story of the 'unseating' comes from Foote, but should probably be put in the context of John having been sworn in, due to Samuel's 'not attendance' and Samuel coming back to Evesham and not wanting to accept his eviction. So, on a certain Mayor's Sunday at All Saints Church both brothers led separate parades of their supporters to the church as Mayor. John arrived first, took up position in the Mayor's chair and (after the service started?) Samuel's entourage arrived and Samuel (to quote Foote) " .. ordered his servants, to dethrone Mr. Mayor, which orders were executed": Sir John was removed and the Captain solemnly installed. Further according to Foote, Sir John "... had prudence enough to stifle his resentment and, considering that it was neither a time nor place for wrangleing, sat very contentedly, in an humble place".
Neil
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Hi
I'm trying to trace my family history.
Our family bible has an inscription stating that we are descended from the Gooderes of Burghope, but, until now I have not been able to find a link.
The breakthrough came on a visit to the geni.com website - where someone called 'Wes' claims that the Goodere brothers John & Samuel had a sister called Elizabeth who married a chap called Thomas Spencer (born 1715 in Herefordshire). My Grandfather's name was William Spencer.
This Wes then actually goes on to provide the tree down as far as my mother.
My concern is that I'm not sure I can believe in the existence of this Elizabeth - as I have seen no evidence to back it up. Can anyone help me with that ?
Thanks
Jo
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I’m not aware of any sister with the name Elizabeth. What other information is provided to support the claim? Is there an age, baptism, marriage record, Will etc. that can be reviewed?
I am not saying this wrong, but it can be very easy to put two internet trees together and presume they are two halves of a whole when they are actually entirely separate.
Neil
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Samuel Dineley did have a daughter Elizabeth who was born around 1719 and survived into adulthood. However, she is normally attributed as being the same Elizabeth who died a Spinster in 1796. If this attribution is wrong it is possible that it could be the same person, but it may be hard to prove.
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Hi Neil,
Thanks for that - although it was the news I wanted, I was sceptical (I have messaged Wes for clarity).
Yes, I'm also aware of Samuel's daughter Elizabeth. It was a statement that you made in your posting back in Nov '07, that gave me hope, that perhaps Wes might well have located a non-recorded daughter. You said . . .
In fact there were 6 sons and 3 daughters born to Sir Edward Goodere (Goodier, Goodyere & variations) and Eleanor Dineley.
You didn't mention the girls' names - obviously Eleanor features in much text I have seen, but I just hoped one of the others might have been my Elizabeth :)
Jo
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The ones that I know of were an Eleanor that died young (b.1682 d. 1683), another Elaenor - the one mentioned on here (b.1689) and a Frances (b.1680) who married Josiah Dineley.
If you look at the tree that I can see on Geni.com you will see that the dates given are very loose and there are only 3 generations from Elizabeth Goodere (who would have to have been born between 1690 and 1713 when her supposed mother died aged 50) and her grandson William SPENCER b.1792. I suspect this is a case of wishing it to be correct, rather than any evidence that it is.
If you want to send me some details of as far back as you can go with your Spencer’s I am happy to have a look to see if I can find a link backwards from there, but I suspect that there are at least generations missing and probably missattributation too.
Neil