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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: zygalski on Saturday 08 November 14 19:37 GMT (UK)
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Hello.
Trying to find the name of this street from a birth certificate dating from 1909.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/SteveCollyer/MountainAsh_zps322315f3.jpg)
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First glance it looks like 32 Gwyn Ivor Street, Mountain Ash
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Thanks for the speedy reply.
I can't find it on the street map, or any street with 2 other words, the first beginning Gwyn which I agree it does look like. The only other first word could be Garyn although that does not really match the writing on the rest of the certificate.
I thought possibly Gwyn Roos Street or Gwyn Moor Street.
Perhaps the street is long gone. Perhaps it's in one of the neighboring villages which all came under the sub-district of Mountain Ash... if so, I still can't find a reasonable match!
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I'd agree with Cas, - it looks like Gwyn Ivor Street to me too.
Romilly.
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http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=304800,199400
Found a Gwernifor Street.. bottom left last street
http://mountain-ash.streetmapof.co.uk/gwernifor-street/
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Thanks again Cas.
Perhaps the registrar made an error or there is a legitimate reason for the discrepancy.
I'll certainly look into it over the next few days. The 1901 census may help I suppose. Mary Ann Jones is the name I'm looking for at that address by the way.
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http://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-Records/1911-census-for-england-and-wales
The census is free to view this weekend. Unable to post 1911 details due to copyright but you can search yourself, with info you know.
If you do subscribe don't forget to untick the box if you wish not to renew.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=704395.0
Good luck, am off to work :)
Cas
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Thanks Cas.
I'm pretty certain it must have been a mistake by the registrar & the address was, as you say, 32 Gwernifor St.
Up until recently I was a member of ancestry.co.uk. I managed to construct my tree with about 1100 family members but my maternal Welsh great grandmother & her son remain a bit of a mystery. Her name, which I only just had confirmed 100% was Mary Ann Jones & her son (my maternal grandfather) was Edward Jones b. 28/12/08. The birth was registered in the sub-district Llantrisant in January 1909, the birthplace being down as Pontypridd.
We do not know who his father was, but I managed to place my 2 year old illegitimate grandfather Edward Jones as an inmate at Llantrisant workhouse in the 1911 census. This matches the birth certificate.
Unfortunately the birth certificate which I scanned part of in my original post only came through recently & I did not get to do a partial search for Mary Ann Jones at 32 ........ , Mountain Ash in the 1901/11 census.
I'll probably bite the bullet & join for another month, but I'm waiting on Edward's marriage certificate to come through, which may shed a little more light.
Thanks anyway.
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Interesting...
I just ran a search for various combinations of street names in the 1911 census & only got a hit on the following:
32 GWERN IFOR ST MOUNTAIN ASH
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Tracing the couple who are present at 32 Gwern Ifor Street in 1911, in 1901 they are in Wiltshire England. There a quite a few boarders with them in both census so possible Mary Ann Jones was just a boarder in the household when Edward was born. Cannot find any relation to connect them as family.
Looking for Mary Ann Jones with no DOB or POB in Wales is needle in haystack.
Have you considered the records from the Workhouse that may give you more info on Edward, possibly Mary Ann?
Cas
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Hi again.
I did check for many, many hours for various combinations of
Mary Ann Jones
David Jones (son)
Thomas Jones (son)
& Edward being the youngest son by about 10 years.
There is also a daughter who I'm told was known as Mags, so presumably Margaret or Maggie.
I would assume Mary Ann Jones was born around 1875.
I couldn't find anything conclusive. I did find a Mary Ann Jones aged 40 registered as an inmate in Llantrisant boarding house in the 1911 census, but again, not particularly conclusive & I have no proof that she boarded her older children.
The family seem to have always lived in Mountain Ash and Penrhiwceiber. I would have expected to find them there on the 1901/11 census.
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Hi
Have you considered a situation where (something like)
Mary Ann Jones, perhaps single, perhaps widowed with a "family"
marries (1897/8/9 ish )
David Jones, widowed ( 1893 - 1898 ish ) with a family
David maybe needing someone to help look after family
Mary Ann maybe needing a breadwinner
David then dies (1901-1905 ish )
Mary Ann left widowed again
Mary Ann enters into a subsequent relationship
whereby your grandfather is the result . . . . .
There is this family . . . . .
1901 RG13 5014 47 page33
Ystradyfodwg District 18
41 Treharne Street
David Jones 45 Maesteg
Mary Ann Jones 28 (2nd Wife) Pentre
Margaret Jones 21 Pentre
Elizabeth Jones 17 Pentre
William Jones Jones 17 Resia
David Eldest Jones 14 Mountain Ash
Thomas James Jones 8 Pentre
May Jones 1 Pentre
William Jones 55 (Father-in-Law) Pontrhydyfen
Ray
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Hi Ray.
Thanks for that explanation & research.
My understanding is that Mary Ann's first husband died in a mining accident which I suppose would have been in the very early 1900's & then Edward was born as an illegitimate child in 1908 as a result of a relationship that did not last.
Edward, the youngest child by about 7 or 8 years as I say was born 1908.
David, Thomas & Mags would have all been born between about 1890-1900 so the ones found above are too old, unfortunately.
I suspect that Mary Ann Jones was living in several houses around Mountain Ash as a boarder with some of her children, minus Edward who seems to have been sent to Llantrisant House by 1911. Other addresses I know she lived at were 23 Tyrfelin St & also a house in King St, as well as Gwernifor? St as discussed, all between about 1910 & 1940. I would imagine she would appear in the 1901/1911 census in Mountain Ash or Penwricheiber. I don't think she would have moved far.
I can upload a scan of the full birth certificate if anyone thinks that may help?
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Sorry for image compression!
(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/SteveCollyer/EJonesbirthcert0001min__1415547043_8617117430_zps5bf29ed5.jpg)
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Ty Pontypridd was the old workhouse on the graig in Pontypridd. This later became a hospital, later still the old buildings were demolished and Dewi Sant Hospital was built on the site.
It was the old Poor Law Union Workhouse/ Hospital. It had many departments such as Orphanage,Maternity, Asylum along with the gravely ill and dying. The address if born/died there would be on birth and death certificates.
So Edward was born in the workhouse. The Gwernifor Street is possibly her last address previous.
I think workhouse records are way to go forward and possibly back?
Just my thoughts
Cas
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Thank you. That's very useful info & I would never have have thought to check Ty Pontypridd.
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Some history/info
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Pontypridd/
http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?inst_id=33&coll_id=1866&expand
Records are kept at http://www.glamarchives.gov.uk/
Ty'r Felin Street/Tyrfelin & King Street is also on old map posted previous.
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Hi There
I had similar problems while researching a street name in Mountain Ash
I called at the local library where a chap informed Me that a few of the older street names no longer exist most of the houses are still there they (the council) renamed a few streets back some years ago so your street may be renamed
Hugheszee
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Thanks for that.
It makes sense that the council probably renamed some roads over the years. I would very much doubt that the registrar would make such an error. Gwyn Ivor St = Gwernifor St makes perfect sense & there's nothing else even in neighbouring villages which is even close.
I have also emailed GlamArchives with the birth certificate details above. Maybe the workhouses took photos of inmates? That would be amazing if I could find those. More realistically I may find registry & discharge dates & so on.
I assume there is a fee for any work they do... hope it isn't too much!
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Info on fees here.
http://www.glamarchives.gov.uk/content.asp?nav=2,17&parent_directory_id=1
Also the registrar may not have been Welsh, or not familiar with the area..and wrote the Street name as he heard it?
Good luck if you decide to go ahead with the research.
Cas
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Hi guys.
Thanks very much for all the help so far.
My maternal Grandfather Edward married in 1935 & the copy of the certificate came through today.
Although I now know Edward's mother was Mary Ann Jones & he was born illegitimate there is a father's name on the certificate David Jones. I thought his father died or his birth was the result of an affair or perhaps something darker(?) but regardless his father was not around. It might be easier if I just upload that portion of the certificate.
Anyone know what the word under his name is? I can't make it out. It doesn't seem to match the word "deceased" from the same certificate for the wife's father's status (see below).
Thanks, as always.
(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/SteveCollyer/DavidJones_zps14c8c377.jpg)
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Full certificate for context:
(http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac58/SteveCollyer/EJonesMESalter0001__1415884865_151231130122_zpsc0169550.jpg)
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Comparison between "deceased" (below) & mystery word:
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I think maybe the registrar was in a hurry looks like deceased to me possibly with a capital D
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Thanks.
Yes I agree there really isn't anything else it could reasonably be other than "deceased".
One more question, can anyone give me any hints as to the house name in Fox Street, Mountain Ash in this address?
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Looks like "Trigfan" to me.
Regards
Roger
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Cheers Roger. I appreciate that :)
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Trigfan ...welsh meaning abode or dwelling place
there are also several welsh place names Trigfan maybe its a clue
to Your ancestors origins
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Could be possible that his fathers name was made up to save face. Father, would have been on BC
Remember seeing a census, were some of your family names come up with father David, it was Abercynon area thou.
Good luck with the Glam Archive research, update us if found info
Cas
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Well things have moved on somewhat since my previous posts.
It seems in 1901 Mary Ann Jones was living in Ponlottyn along with 8 other people in the household including her then husband Thomas, and son David Matthew & daughter Margaret Sarah. The head of the household was Mary Ann's brother David. Also crammed into the house were David's wife Elizabeth, daughters Miriam & Margaret & son David!
I'm having trouble identifying the street in Pontlottyn that that they lived in at the time. Can anyone help name it?
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Tynewwyd street
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only one w OOPS tynewydd street
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Found it. Thanks :)