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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: kmw on Thursday 06 November 14 13:12 GMT (UK)
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Susannah Gill from family talks was born 17th March 1842 in Woodville, NSW. We cannot find a record of her birth. We have her death certificate but wanting to try and get her birth certificate. is there anyway anyone can help.
kmw
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You would be looking for a baptism as civil registration commenced 1856 in NSW .
Prior to that baptisms, marriages and burials were recorded in church registers.
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I am guessing this is her obit?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/127442606
The 1895 article referred to:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/126616857
"...and was one of a family of nine..."
I can count baptisms for 11 children - one born every year, but there is a three year gap between Henry in 1840 and Albert in 1843. She may not have been baptised, but it seems more likely that either it wasn't recorded, wasn't passed on to Sydney or has been missed from the indexes.
If you have access to the Archives Resources Kit at libraries and Family history societies you can go through the registers yourself. Henry's baptism is on microfilm 5006 which also includes 1841, and film 5007 is 1842.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/volumes-1-123-1/volumes-1-123
Debra :)
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This farm is only about 2 klms from my place is it the same family.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/thomas_gill.htm
Neil
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This has her birth as 14th March 1839?
http://www.jenwilletts.com/searchaction.php
Modified..Whoops thats SARAH, sorry
Neil
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We know Susannah Gill parents were William and Susannah (nee Creed) and they had fifteen children. Ten of the children were born in England. Five were born in Australia. I am a bit confused as Susannah was born in March 1842 and her brother James was also born in July 1842. Cant find her birth anywhere.Maybe our information is wrong. Can anyone help with this
KMW
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William and Susannah Gill children
Harriet born 1819 died 1890 Sarah born 1839 died 1915
Jane born 1820 died 1899 Susannah born 1842 died 1926
William born 1822 died 1897 James born 1842 died 1924
Mary Ann born 1824 died 1907 Martha born 1847 died 1927
Andrew born 1826 died 1896 Eliza born 1848 died 1922
Louisa born 1829 died 1899
Naomi born 1830 died 1898
Miriam born 1833 died 1908
Margaret born 1835 died 1838
Peter born 1837 died 1838
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OK, so we have two families mixed up here ;D
James GILL was baptised in 1844.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Is your ancestor Susannah born c1842 who married William Randel FOSTER at Maitland in 1859?
Do you have the marriage cert or her death cert?
Debra :)
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It looks like Sarah (1839), Susannah (c1842), James (1844), Martha (1847), and Eliza (1848) were the children of William GILL and Susannah CREED and the other seven children probably belonged to the couple who married in Sydney.
So there is still a three year gap between Sarah and James and the films are the same, 5006 (1840/1841) and 5007 (1842/1843).
Sarah and James are in the C of E registers and Martha and Eliza in the Wesleyan.
Debra :)
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As far as I am aware there was only one church at Woodville, still there unconsecrated and still having weddings there. It was C of E. The Wesleyan Church was built later and at Morpeth a few miles away.
The Pioneer register can be purchased on CD around $30 From Maitland Genealogy Society and it should have all births to William and Sussanah/Susana/Sussana. The Pioneer register can also be viewed at NLA not online. The referance for William Gill is 503.
BUT according to my source only one child was born to them after arrival in Nov 6th 1838 on Board the ship Maitland and this was son Albert James July 13th 1844. Lots of marriages of children and births of grandchildren in this period after their arrival. Could be wrong often am?
Neil
neil
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The Only birth of a Susannah Gill was in 1851 to son William Gill and his wife Margaret and she died the following year 1852 at Morpeth. William and Margaret married according to my source in 1852 so Susannah was born illigitimate.
Neil
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In the 19th Century, and throughout most of the 20th Century, in NSW, the surnames of babies born before their parents are formally married follow the same pattern as babies born after their parents are formally married, and so the family name for a baby is drawn from the surname of their mum at the time of their birth/baptism. If the baby's parents are married, then mum has usually taken on the surname of her husband. So it may be worthwhile looking through various indexes (NSW BDM, family search, commercial websites) under different surnames, or alternatively using the baby's given name and a wildcard option for the surname.
Cheers, JMSusannah Gill from family talks was born 17th March 1842 in Woodville, NSW. We cannot find a record of her birth.
familysearch allows searching with a first name (NO need to include a last name), and you can restrict the search further to a particular year, and of course to New South Wales, Australia. https://familysearch.org/search
NSW BDM online now allows you to select day/month/year to limit your search. Depending of if their Early Church Records include Susannah's baptism, you may be able to compile a list of 'Susannah' baptisms to then consider her family's likely surname. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
Of course, not all babies were baptised, and not all baptisms were for babies. Susannah may have been baptised several years later. If you have the baptisms for younger siblings, perhaps you need to search around those dates, in case two or more siblings were baptised at the one time.
Cheers, JM
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Hummmm This could be her ::)
SUSANNAH CHAPMAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER SUSANNAH REF # 1222/1842 V18421222 26A
Neil ???
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Hi,
I often go to the Qld State Library for research and I could have a look at some early NSW films and check the Pioneer Register (I think they hold a copy) but not for a couple of weeks because the State Library will be closed next week and the following is grandchildren.
I have an interest in this area, my wife's lot settled on Dunmore as part of the 1837 Midlothian Highlanders venture before moving to the Barrington.
Gerry
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I think it would be a good idea to check the Pioneer Register as some of the aspects shown earlier from me may have/not been done from the register. Source: Pre 1860 Pioneer Register - Book 1 as I stated in an earlier post the reference for this William Gill is 503.
There is a copy at Maitland genealogy society but don't know if I can access it as I am not a member?
Neil
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Hi
May be of help http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/528371
Muss
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Debra
Have the shipping records of William and Suannah Gill(nee Creed) and their children who came out to Australia 6th November 1838 on the ship Maitland. Peter died in England before they came out. The children that came to Australia with William and Susannah are Jane 17, William 16, Mary Ann 14, Andrew 13, Louisa 9, Naomi 8, Miriam 5. Margaret isn't on the arrival list as she died on the voyage to Australia. Harriet married Edward King and came to Australia on 27th November 1838 on the ship Lady Nugent. Harriet and Edward King children, Harriet died on the voyage to Australia, Jane also died on the voyage to Australia. First child born to Harriet and Edward in Australia was Ellen King born 3 February 1840.
My problem is finding a birth or baptismal record of Susannah Gill born 1842. Susannah married my husband great great grandfather William Randell Foster. Thanks for your time and effort KMW
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Harriet King (nee Gill) is the daughter of William and Susannah Gill (nee Creed), born 9th June 1819 Beckley, Sussex England.
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Oh
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SUSANNAH CHAPMAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER SUSANNAH REF # 1222/1842 V18421222 26A
Could well be, Neil, and on the other hand, could well be for a different family. The NSW Early Church Records, often seem to show the clergyman recording the name of the father regardless of if the parents were formally married when adding baptisms to the parish registers. (26A is C of E)
Susannah Gill from family talks was born 17th March 1842 in Woodville, NSW. We cannot find a record of her birth. We have her death certificate but wanting to try and get her birth certificate
I gather you want the birth (baptism) certificate to confirm her parentage, date and place of birth etc. When Susannah was being interviewed prior to her marriage, the clergy would have asked many questions and recorded the answers in their local register, but may have sent only a summary of part of those details to the NSW BDM Registrar General.
21st January, 1859, Wesleyan Chapel, High St, West Maitland. Marriage of William Randel FOSTER, son of Mr Robert Foster of Woodville, and Miss Susannah GILL, daughter of Mr William GILL, of Dunmore. Rev W T Mayne performed the ceremony.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18654390 Maitland Mercury 22 Jan 1859
Do you have a copy or official transcript of the NSW BDM registration for that marriage ? It should give you the then ages, places of birth, occupations of the bride and the groom, and names of the parents of both, the maiden names of the mums, the occupations of the dads. And as you have Susannah as born 1842, you should also expect to find the name of the person giving consent to the marriage (until 1970s in NSW you needed to be at least 21 years to give your own consent to your marriage). NSW BDM #2196.
If the document does not give the info (particularly the then age and place of birth for Susannah as this is the theme of this thread) do not panic, as there’s many a NSW BDM civil registration that was not reconciled to the parish registers, and NSW BDM suggests contacting the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
Here’s a thread that may help overcome any hurdles on the NSW BDM record of that 1859 marriage, and possibly lead to the details your are seeking about your Susannah GILL's origins..
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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BUT according to my source only one child was born to them after arrival in Nov 6th 1838 on Board the ship Maitland and this was son Albert James July 13th 1844.
Neil
He was baptised, married, had children and died as just 'James', and yet someone put 'Albert J.' on his headstone. Bizarre.
Debra :)
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Debra
Have the shipping records of William and Suannah Gill(nee Creed) and their children who came out to Australia 6th November 1838 on the ship Maitland. Peter died in England before they came out. The children that came to Australia with William and Susannah are Jane 17, William 16, Mary Ann 14, Andrew 13, Louisa 9, Naomi 8, Miriam 5. Margaret isn't on the arrival list as she died on the voyage to Australia. Harriet married Edward King and came to Australia on 27th November 1838 on the ship Lady Nugent. Harriet and Edward King children, Harriet died on the voyage to Australia, Jane also died on the voyage to Australia. First child born to Harriet and Edward in Australia was Ellen King born 3 February 1840.
My problem is finding a birth or baptismal record of Susannah Gill born 1842. Susannah married my husband great great grandfather William Randell Foster. Thanks for your time and effort KMW
Something is not making good sense to me.
James GILL, born 13 July 1844, baptised 27 Oct 1844, son of William and Susan
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCJ-T3X
NSW BDM 1844 Volume 28 line 2503
Jane GILL, born 15 December 1835, baptised 3 January 1836 1836, NSW BDM Vol 30, line 6, daughter of William and Susan.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC8-PXH
So supporting Dundee’s earlier post, I am sure, if the family arrived on 6th November 1838, (on the Maitland), that there’s at least two different families in NSW, with William and Susan as the GILL parents.
On the Maitland, arriving 5 Nov 1838
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?series=NRS5313&item=4_4780&ship=Maitland
William GILL, of Beckley, a Farm Labourer, aged 41, a Wesleyan, for Mr Lord, of Patersons River,
WIFE not shown as being on board
1 boy aged more than 14 years
0 girl aged more than 14 years
2 boys aged 7 to 14
2 girls aged 7 to 14
0 boy aged under 7
1 girl aged under 7
So SIX children came with William GILL on the Maitland in 1838, and there was no mention of his wife/ their mother, on that passenger list (linked above). Jane GILL aged 17 is listed in the unmarried females section, the passenger list does not give her relationship to others on that voyage.
ADD
Interestedingly,
From the index of the 1841 NSW census there’s TWO William GILL chaps, one at Patrick’s Plains and one at Raymond Terrace.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=18
Cheers, JM
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Susannah is shown on the other passenger list:
Arr NSW, November 1838, per Maitland, all with surname GILL, all from Beckley (is this Beckley in Sussex, or Beckley in Oxfordshire?)
William, 41
Susannah, 38
Jane, 17
William, 16
Mary Ann, 14
Andrew, 12
Louisa, 9
Naomi, 8
Miriam, 5
I know this list corresponds with kmw's list in a previous posting, but thought it might be helpful further down the posts.
Judith
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Agh, thanks Judith. It was confusing me.
Still leaves two William GILL chaps in NSW with likely their respective wives as Susan ..... one at Patricks Plains and the other at Raymond Terrace.
Cheers, JM
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Jane GILL, born 15 December 1835, baptised 3 January 1836 1836, NSW BDM Vol 30, line 6, daughter of William and Susan.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC8-PXH
So supporting Dundee’s earlier post, I am sure, if the family arrived on 6th November 1838, (on the Maitland), that there’s at least two different families in NSW, with William and Susan as the GILL parents.
Go and check the film carefully, yourself.
I have a person born and baptised in 1849 that the NSW registrar claims was baptised in 1839. The people who read those old registers and originally compiled the computer index were not infallible, either with their readring or their data entry.
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There were two different couples - William & Susannah GILL.
We have previously researched the other couple:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=553136.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=564259.0
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Go and check the film carefully, yourself.
I have a person born and baptised in 1849 that the NSW registrar claims was baptised in 1839. The people who read those old registers and originally compiled the computer index were not infallible, either with their readring or their data entry.
Yes, NSW BDM is not infallible, and nor is familysearch.org, but the two are very different organisations, and the NSW BDM indexes were compiled in the 1930s while the familysearch.org's transcription is very much a recent transcription, again based on volunteers.
I too have seen mistranscribed errors like the 1839 v 1849 one that towers write about. It happens in many indexes, not just in NSW, and not just in family history indexes. Perhaps if towers were to inform the NSW BDM of the error, and cite the relevant volume and line no. for NSW BDM to check, then perhaps NSW BDM will change their online index to reflect the apparent error. Mind you, it can sometimes take months for these suggested changes to the online index to happen, BUT they do happen. ;D But simply put, if you don't ask, ......
Cheers, JM
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Which Beckley are they from?
Judith
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The 17 year old Jane GILL on the Maitland, Nov 1838 is from Beckley Sussex :) as per the NSW SRO's list I linked earlier :)
Page 3
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5313/4_4780/Maitland_5%20Nov%201838/4_478000081.jpg&No=3
Cheers, JM
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I think possibly some new record has been set by this OP.. :o She has managed to get through 8 years of questions on Rootschat, re her family tree with astounding research done by a whole heap of gifted people.. In that period of questions and answers she has managed to NOT thank anyone for their valuable time and effort and rarely replies in the affirmative.. :o :o :o
Neil ::)
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Thanks, JM - I only looked properly at the other record which doesn't show the county. :-[
Neil, I don't think you are correct - careful reading of posts on this thread and others show differently.
Judith
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I will correct myself and apologise, there is one on this thread. Many others have not had one, nor has the OP gone back and ended the thread after much research on the part of others, just left it hanging.
KMW, you have my deepest apologies. Judith thank you for your insight and check.
Neil
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That Maitland list is rather curious.
They count people by religion as
" Protestant
Wesleyan
Protestant
Methodist Protestant"
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Susannah Gill from family talks was born 17th March 1842 in Woodville, NSW. We cannot find a record of her birth. We have her death certificate but wanting to try and get her birth certificate. is there anyway anyone can help.
kmw
There is no record of her Baptism on the NSW records. Birth Certificates were not issued in this period. Wesleyan Church Records for West Maitland (read MAITLAND) may still be available. There is a fellow who has written a book on the GILL family of Woodville, he may have a record. I have attempted to contact him but so far I have been unsuccessful. Some records were kept by Mr Lang of Dunmore estate as many of Woodville settlers were on leaseholds to him. Also the family had connections to the Wallalong community adjacent so some records could be there via the Maitland Historical society.
This is a notice in The Daily Maitland Mercury of 1909 which states that Miss Susannah GILL daughter of Mr William GILL of DUNMORE was the first Marriage in the NEW Wesleyan Church at West Maitland 21 st January 1859.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e5m/
Neil
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Hummmm This could be her ::)
SUSANNAH CHAPMAN FATHER WILLIAM MOTHER SUSANNAH REF # 1222/1842 V18421222 26A
Neil ???
My reasoning in placing this Baptism record up for thought was it could just BE a transcription error by a person doing the transferring to NSW BDM records. JM may have some thought's? The name CHAPMAN could be from the line above or below and accidentally used instead of GILL.
I find coincidences sometimes have a greater bearing on fact if you are willing to recheck. ODD that everything matches except the SURNAME.
There are however a family with that surname having children in that period. I wonder if they got a child from the Gill Parents via a transcription error. I haven't yet checked marriages or deaths for this Susannah?
Neil
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That Maitland list is rather curious.
They count people by religion as
" Protestant
Wesleyan
Protestant
Methodist Protestant"
I am not sure what is curious about that; afterall the likely reason for the ship's list to need to know this information would be to ensure the ship can provide for the different Church services on board. Many 19th Century passenger lists into Sydney from 'overseas' show similar information; afterall, the distance was measured in time taken, so there would have been many Sundays on board.
Cheers, JM
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There are a couple of deaths of a Susannah CHAPMAN one even in West Maitland none with parents William and Susannah. Two marriages of a Susannah CHAPMAN on in 1882 at Kempsey to a Mr Everson and one in Tamworth 1865 to a Mr WELLBY. No corresponding deaths in NSW for either of these ladies, they could have remarried out of state but none seem to be in NSW.
So I am still betting on a possible link between the two births.
Neil
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I think I will have to get Susannah marriage certificate and maybe her death certificate. Unable to find her birth anywhere. It would be great to get a copy of that book about the Gill family. Thanks everyone for all your effort to try and solve this. KMW
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I think I will have to get Susannah marriage certificate and maybe her death certificate.
In your original post you say you have her death certificate ???
We have her death certificate but wanting to try and get her birth certificate.
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Hi
May be of help http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/528371
Muss
Thanks to Muss finding the above. ;)
The Book is called "A Cow and a Haypress" (The story of William and Susannah GILL) by Daryl Lightfoot 331 Coal Point Rd., Coal Point, N.S.W. 2283.
He is in the NSW white pages
He has not returned my call as yet.
Neil
Modified to include
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Protestant
Wesleyan
Protestant
Methodist Protestant"
They have classified and counted people there into 4 groups, two of which are the same, and the other two of which are also the same. That's actually two groups.
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Not so strange when you know that it stems from the answer that people gave when asked the question. "What religion are you"
The main premise for their passage out with funding was that they be Protestant at the least. (Not believing in the power of the Church of Rome) Preference was given to people of Wesleyan and Methodism as the proponents were looking for people of same religious belief and ideals so that they could fit in with what what was expected of them in the new colony. More specifically under the ideals that Mr Lang of Dunmore along with others expected.
I think some may have come with very little religious zeal and actually knew little about what was being asked. They just wanted the passage out. ::)
Neil
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Yes, Neil is spot on, many just wanted the passage out.
May I add
In the 21st century we do tend to lump Wesleyan and Methodist into the one denomination, and of course Protestant is not just one denomination at all. Wesleyan and Methodist Protestant in the 1830s were two similar groups but not necessarily the same ‘group’.
The use of the label “Protestant” in the 1830s can cover a broad spectrum of denominations, but not ever Church of Rome (Roman Catholics). And depending on the circumstances “Protestant” in 1830s often did not include Church of England either.
So rather than just looking at just one part of one page of that passenger list, and just reading down the list from the beginning of the four pages the list includes families who were recorded as :
Protestant, Methodist, Episcopalian, Baptist, Protestant, Independent, Protestant, Wesleyan, Protestant, Methodist, Protestant, Baptist, Protestant, Protestant, Methodist, Protestant, Independent, Protestant.
Just because many were recorded as Protestant, does not mean those families were all following the same forms and practises as each other under the direction of a specific Church . “Protestant” had, and continues to have, a far broader meaning than wholly following a specific denomination. So in the 1830s “Protestants” were not lumped into one group in the sense that they were all of the one denomination, for they were not all of the one denomination.
Cheers, JM
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Many types of Protestants, yes.
And if you are counting them and putting them into groups, then you would label the groups with distinguishing labels.
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Without straying too far off topic, I am not sure that there's any indication, even at the summary page of the NSW SRO's free to search passenger list, that there were formal requirements for the religions to be counted up and summarised. It was more likely they're to allow the captain and crew to make arrangements for onboard Church services, including any possible burials at sea.
Getting back onto topic, I note that the Gill family were listed on the passenger list as Wesleyan and as mentioned in an earlier post, when Miss Susannah GILL married on 21st January, 1859, it was at the Wesleyan Chapel, High St, West Maitland.
Cheers, JM
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Re Susannah CHAPMAN and NSW BDM sighting with parents William and Susannah.
St Peters, Campbelltown 15 May 1842 baptism .... this is likely an Anglican ceremony
Her date of birth recorded there as 26 February 1842, so perhaps not our OP's lass.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTX9-89N
Cheers, JM
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Further information to JM's post above:
Susannah CHAPMAN bap. 1842
Father: William
Mother: Susannah
Ref Number: V18421222 26A
Parish: Campbelltown, St Peter's (Co. Airds), Church of England
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Re Susannah’s birth and the family’s belief of 17 March 1842, Woodville.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/volumes-1-123-1/volumes-1-123
I think it likely that NSW BDM's Volume 54 from lines 1094 to 1179 inclusive would cover 86 Wesleyan baptisms from 1839-1844. (So on average about 15 per year for all of NSW). It may be that there’s no NSW BDM holdings for Wesleyan baptisms from the Woodville district for that timeframe, and perhaps that’s indicating that a clergy’s register has not been located for that rural circuit or that there was no clergy available to be actively looking after the Pastoral care of the local Wesleyans at that time. However, that suggestion is simply speculation on my part, and I am often way off track. I have checked my own family's private papers, as there's a number of my ancestors who were Wesleyans in NSW in that era.
I cannot see any other likely NSW BDM Early Church Record’s volume. A good search of NSWSRO’s reel 5019, from 1094 to the end of the reel may be helpful. (it covers 1839 to 1844, but the Wesleyans are at the end of the reel)
Perhaps the new NSW BDM search options will allow for a search using line no. and year only. "Search by number only" No/Yes (selecting the YES option) but it seems to me that it only allows for one line no. and year per each search, regardless of if an ECR or a civil registration.
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
I could search that Section of Reel 5019 but not for a couple of weeks.
Gerry
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According to Mr Google the Church registers on microfilm for West Maitland, Morpeth and Maitland are on Microfilm at the NLA Mitchell Library?
Neil
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Maybe the the following information I've obtained may assist some:
Susannah Gill -
Birth 9 DEC 1842 • Dunmore Estate, Woodville River, NSW, Australia
Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922, Reg No. 14111
Death 11 SEP 1926 • Woodville, New South Wales, Australia
Married: William Foster - 21 Jan 1859 Wesleyan Chapel, West Maitland, New South Wales, Australia
Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1949, Reg No. 2196
Susannah Gill's parents:
Father: William Gill -
Birth 28 APR 1797 Kent, England (Inscription inside family bible of William & Susannah Foster states Kent, England.)
Death 21 JAN 1869 • Dunmore, Morpeth, NSW, Australia
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985, Reg No. 4672
Married to Susannah Elizabeth in 1816, Chatham, Kent, England
Mother: Susannah Elizabeth (nee Creed)
Birth 25 OCT 1801 • Chatham, Kent, England
Death 9 JAN 1887 • Goulburn Grove, Largs, N.S.W. Australia
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985, Reg No. 10384
William & Susannah Elizabeth appear to have had 15 children: Harriet, Jane, William, Mary, Andrew, Louise, Naomi, Miriam, Susan, Peter, Sarah, (Susannah B:1842), Albert "James", Martha, Eliza. (All born in England except from Sarah onward. Two appear to have died under 3yo.)
Regards