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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: pompeyboy on Wednesday 05 November 14 14:56 GMT (UK)

Title: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: pompeyboy on Wednesday 05 November 14 14:56 GMT (UK)
This has been flummoxing me a while..the thing is all these people are still living so can't put any prticular details up but..what i have is three entries in births of three people with exactly the same christian names and surnames..one born in 1968,one in 1973 and one in 1989..they were all born in the same place somewhere in London..now this is the thing..the mother's maiden name in all three of them is..yes..the same..could they all be connected in some way..maybe '68 is the father of '89..it's just the mothers name that is throwing me.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated....pm if neccessary

Thank you

Steve
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 05 November 14 15:03 GMT (UK)
It wasn't that the 1968 died and the 1973 was named after him?

My hubby was born in 1950 and named the same as his older brother who had died 2 years before aged just 9 months.

PM me with the info if you like,two heads are better than one and all that !  ;D

Carol
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: pompeyboy on Wednesday 05 November 14 15:07 GMT (UK)
Pm on way Carol

Thanks
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 05 November 14 15:20 GMT (UK)
Hmm, as you say a mystery.

Same mmn on each,so I'm not convinced that the 1989 is son of 1968 or 73.

No S or A after the page number to suggest an alteration has been made to the original registration.

Not a very common name either...............sorry no more suggestions.

Off to see if said person married in the same area.

 ;D

Carol

ADDED- can't see a marriage for him.......sorry!
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 05 November 14 15:47 GMT (UK)
Are you just going by date of registration on GRO index when you say there are three dates of birth?

I have the same person registered with dates about 8 years apart. The earlier one was her actual year of birth. The later year is the same as the year her parents got married, so possibly could be a legal adoption by her father. The child was registered with the father's surname at time of birth even though the parents didn't marry until some years later.

I have other relatives born in the 1980s who were legally adopted by their mother's second husband, their original records on GRO index have a hand annotated reference number after the record. Possibly a reference to adoption certificate. In this case the children took the surname of their stepfather.

Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 05 November 14 15:54 GMT (UK)
Lizzie as Steve has gone offline,I'll answer that if I may.

The child has the same full name and the same mothers maiden name ( which is the same as his surname) in each of the 3 GRO indexes.

I understood that if any alterations were made to the original cert,an S (supplementary) would be added to the later GRO ref?  Would you expect the surname to change too?
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: Lostris on Wednesday 05 November 14 16:01 GMT (UK)
Its the actual Cert you need to see for Margin numbered comments.

Wouldnt surprise me if the first said 'See x73' and that one in turn said 'See x89'

(Where x = M, J, S or D for the Quarter in question)
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Wednesday 05 November 14 16:14 GMT (UK)
If it is the same person,he'd have been 21 by 1989,could it be that he made a slight alteration to the details himself?
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: LizzieL on Wednesday 05 November 14 16:16 GMT (UK)
In the first of my examples the child had the same name (two christian names and a quite uncommon surname) on both references and of course same mother's maiden name. The parents had been living together and registered her in father's surname. So the later record had the same surname and coincided with when they married, So no change in surname in that case.
This is quite recent so there is no image as GRO index was computerised by then.

Also just found her sister, again two register entries, one actual year of birth and the second the same as the parents marriage year, her second register entry is consecutive with her sister's.
 
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: pompeyboy on Thursday 06 November 14 12:01 GMT (UK)
Carol,LizzieL,Lostris...many thanks all of you for your help with this..some good points been made which i shall endeavour to have a look at.

Thank you

Steve

Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: Colin Cruddace on Thursday 06 November 14 23:18 GMT (UK)
Its the actual Cert you need to see for Margin numbered comments.

Wouldnt surprise me if the first said 'See x73' and that one in turn said 'See x89'

(Where x = M, J, S or D for the Quarter in question)

I believe it was about 1964 that birth certs had a column for surname of the child, so perhaps he/she was originally registered under the mothers surname, but changed to the father's surname when she married. In later years he/she might have decided to revert to the original surname.

Lostris has it almost right but the original index entry is the master, and subsequent entries should refer back to that one.

Colin

PS. I should have said that the birth should only be recorded once, with only one birth certificate issued, and subsequent entries are for changes to the original.
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: ReadyDale on Friday 07 November 14 09:50 GMT (UK)
Lizzie as Steve has gone offline,I'll answer that if I may.

The child has the same full name and the same mothers maiden name ( which is the same as his surname) in each of the 3 GRO indexes.
So that is one less coincidence - three unmarried women with the same surname have babies over the period of 21 years and give them the same forename(s) in the same area of a highly populated city.
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: Lostris on Friday 07 November 14 11:28 GMT (UK)
Its the actual Cert you need to see for Margin numbered comments.

Wouldnt surprise me if the first said 'See x73' and that one in turn said 'See x89'

(Where x = M, J, S or D for the Quarter in question)

I believe it was about 1964 that birth certs had a column for surname of the child, so perhaps he/she was originally registered under the mothers surname, but changed to the father's surname when she married. In later years he/she might have decided to revert to the original surname.

Lostris has it almost right but the original index entry is the master, and subsequent entries should refer back to that one.

Colin

PS. I should have said that the birth should only be recorded once, with only one birth certificate issued, and subsequent entries are for changes to the original.

Yes, I merged two things into my answer.

The 'original Cert for (any) Margin comments' should be read as a stand-alone statement.

It is indeed the Index which will have hand-written comments directing the browser to another linked Quarter & year Index entry ...
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Friday 07 November 14 12:28 GMT (UK)
So if Steve is to order any of them ,should it be the original 1968,which should say in the margin see 1973 ,and 1989 as such and such has been altered?

Or have I misunderstood.?

They could all be different people of course,with the same name/surname and mothers maiden name!

Carol
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: pompeyboy on Friday 07 November 14 14:25 GMT (UK)
The person i am looking into is around 24 years old.Which is why all the 3 names is throwing me and wondered if there was a link.eg parentage to one of the older ones ??? ::)
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: Lostris on Friday 07 November 14 14:32 GMT (UK)
So, are there any handwritten notes in the GRO Index entries?
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: pompeyboy on Sunday 09 November 14 00:55 GMT (UK)
From what i can see Lostris nothing


Regards

Steve
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: andrewalston on Tuesday 11 November 14 13:22 GMT (UK)
It might be fruitful to search either by index reference, or by first names and district only, to find any other surnames mentioned.

This could throw up possible marriages, or at least give a clue to what was happening at the time.

In my ONS, I have found children initially registered with the same surname as the mother, then re-referenced later, with a different surname, as well as the original, in the later index. One child had two such father figures in their life, and a third re-registration following the mother's marriage.

In earlier indexes, there are often cross-references inserted. One of my relatives was born in 1914 before her parents married. There is another entry around the time she would be starting work, this time with her father's surname. This index refers back to the original one, where there is a handwritten comment.

Nobody said this was going to be easy!
Title: Re: Problem With 3 Dates of Births
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 08 June 15 12:34 BST (UK)
Pompeyboy,

Did you ever get the cert to confirm what was going on here,or find the 24 year old you were looking for?

Carol