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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: samanthac on Monday 03 November 14 23:17 GMT (UK)
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Hello
Frances Oakes, DOB around 1882, was born in Scotland, but I have no idea where? She moved to Dublin with her family, she remained in Ireland, eventually moving to Carlingford, Louth, Ireland, where she died. I believe her parents were Patrick and her mother Frances, both may have been Frances Mary. I believe her mother's DOB to be around 1855 and her maiden name was Duff. Somewhere along the line, they also changed their name from Macdarragh, but this may have been once they were in Ireland.
I have been using the Irish censes and this is where I gathered my information, but how do I start to investigate my Scottish ancestors?
Any tips would be appreciated.
Regards
Sam
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Hi
Scotlands People is the only way you will get that type of info. It's a pay per view site via purchase of credits but you can search the index for free
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
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Hi
Parents marriage maybe,
Patrick Oakes married FANNY DUFF 6 Dec 1873 Bridgeton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland.
claire
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Hi
Looks like their first child was born in the same place
Margaret OAKES bap. 13 Sep 1874 Bridgeton,Glasgow,Lanark,Scotland.
Parents: Patrick OAKES and Fanny DUFFY
claire
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Clare, thank you, thank you, thank you, so much for the information. My great grandmother was also born there, are you able to shed any light on her, Frances Mary ?
Thanks again.........
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Hi Samanthac
I would advise you to register with Scotlands People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Like Carole said you can search the index for free - but to view costs credits.
£7 buys 30 credits
You could view the original marriage register of Patrick Oakes and Fanny Duff in 1873 Bridgton, Glasgow for 6 credits ( £1.18 approx) - this would give you addresses, ages, occupations, parents names, father's occupation.
The Frances Mary you refer to - is she another child of the above couple?
Looby :)
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Somewhere along the line, they also changed their name from Macdarragh, but this may have been once they were in Ireland.
They're not in the LDS CD-ROM transcription of the 1881 census - maybe they moved back and forth between Scotland and Ireland.
You may already know that 'darag' or 'darach' (with umpteen variations of spelling of course) is the Scots Gaelic for 'oak'. I gather that the Irish is similar.
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The birthplaces of the children on the 1901 Ireland census suggest that they may have moved to Dublin City by 1881, unfortunately (from a records point of view). Ellen is said to have been born there 1881-2.
Frances is not with them in 1901:
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Mountjoy/Summer_Place/1326557/
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There is a Fannie Duff in Bridgeton on the 1871 Census born approx 1853 (age 18) in Dunbartonshire.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBPH-LP6
On the 1861 - this Fanny appears to be in Kirkintilloch https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBWD-K3P
Maybe Patrick's wife ?
Looby :)
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Thank you all so much for the information.
Looby that does sound like her as my estimated dob was 1852. |Frances Mary is from the same family, the irish cences states she was born in Scotland..........around 1882.
Forfarian, thanks for the info about 'oakes', and the correct spelling of it. I wonder why people would change their names, why not just still to the original one?
Can someone confirm if 'Scots people' is easy to navigate, I can never seem to get to grips with the Irish one?
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thanks for the info about 'oakes', and the correct spelling of it.
No, I didn't say anything about 'correct' spelling. There was no such thing before the late 19th century. You'll find 'darach' with 'o' instead of 'a', and with one 'r' or two, and in oblique cases you may find some other letters creeping in, or the 'a' missing from 'Mac'. All are equally 'correct'.
I found my Irish Gaelic dictionary and 'oak' is given as 'darach'. It is where the name of Derry/Londonderry comes from, and also for instance Craigendarroch on Deeside in Aberdeenshire.
I wonder why people would change their names, why not just still to the original one?
It was not unusual for people to change a Gaelic surname for an anglicised version - in Scots Gaelic, for exampler, 'gobha' means a smith, and in Irish Gaelic it's 'gabha'. The 'bh' is barely pronounced, and the surname Gow is an anglicised spelling of how 'gobha' or 'gabha' is pronounced. Some went further and changed their name to Smith.
As to why, there can be many reasons. After the Jacobite rising in 1745-6, quite a lot of people changed their names to evade the Goverment troops searching for supporters of the Jacobite cause.
Macdarrach means 'son of the oak' so it's not a huge leap from there to Oakes.
Can someone confirm if 'Scots people' is easy to navigate, I can never seem to get to grips with the Irish one?
I certainly find it quite straightforward.
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Thanks for responding and for the informative post, it is very much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Sam
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Hi Samantha,
I came across your post here while researching my own family tree. Fannie Oakes (Duffy) was my great great grandmother. Her daughter Annie gave birth to my Grandmother Rose.
I'm guessing we're distant cousins. I wonder if it would be possible to get any information from you that you may have discovered since first posting?
Regards
Phil
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HI Phil. Just double checking that we are looking into the same person because you used 'Duffy' in your post?
Regards
Sam
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Hi Sam,
I think that was an autocorrect typo. It was "Duff" I typed (just had to correct that)
Phil
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Hi Phil
It's great that you are also following up on this family, unfortunately I have not uncovered a lot, but this is down to not spending enough time on the search.
This is the inforamtion I have:
Father was John Duff (Born in Ireland, but not known where) DOB around 1812
Mother was Margaret (Bothwell), born Glasgow, DOB around 1816
They married in 1838, St Andrews Church, Glasgow
In the 1881 Scotish Cences they lived; High Street, Buckshead Gosed?
He was a labourer (stonebreaker)
In the 1881 Scotish Cences, there is;
John Duff aged 10 years (son)
Fanny Duff aged 8
Margaret Duff 5
Agnes Duff 3
I hope this is some helpf for you?
Regards
Sam
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That is absolutely AWESOME. Thanks so much
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If you put this into your address bar.....
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Abothwell~%20%2Bmarriage_place%3Ascotland~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1838-1838~%20%2Bresidence_place%3Aglasgo~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Aduff~
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and this one
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3Abothwell~%20%2Bmarriage_place%3Ascotland~%20%2Bmarriage_year%3A1838-1838~%20%2Bresidence_place%3Aglasgo~%20%2Bspouse_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bspouse_surname%3Aduff~
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Ah.... looking at the dates I have, there appears to be some considerable gaps. I have her as born in 1853 but according to the above it's 1871 which is gives me 28 questionable years... And considering her eldest child that I have was born in 1874, (her daughter Annie was born in 1887), I think it's safe to say we have identically named & located people...
:(
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Hi Phil
I think that in the 1881 census that Sam posted, the ages have been mistrascribed for John and wife Fanny...
Sam, from the Duff births you linked above (from Family Search), see there is a birth of a daughter, Margaret, to Margaret Bothwell and John Duff in 1855 in Kirkintilloch Dumbarton. The original image for this birth cert, as it is the first year of official registration in Scotland, should include the place of births for both parents, date and location of marriage and other useful info.
Monica :)
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I think that in the 1881 census that Sam posted, the ages have been mistrascribed for John and wife Fanny...
Sorry, that is nonsense :P The entry that Sam posted is actually from the 1861 census not 1881, for the household of John Duff and Margaret Bothwell. Makes more sense!
Monica
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Thanks for your input.........
So are we from the same stock Phil?
Are you familir with the area?
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Hello samanthac,
If the Oakes family was back in Ireland by 1881 then it's unlikely Frances was born in Scotland about 1882.
ScotlandsPeople has a birth for a Fanny Oakes in Camlachie District, Glasgow, Lanarkshire in 1878. Ages on Census Returns aren't always reliable so might be worth a look.
Regards, Dod.
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In the 1881 Scotish Cences they lived; High Street, Buckshead Gosed?
In the 1881 Scotish Cences, there is;
John Duff aged 10 years (son)
Fanny Duff aged 8
Margaret Duff 5
Agnes Duff 3
I still can't find thie listing of this family in the CD-ROM version of the Scottish 1881 census, but 'Buckshead Gosed' has to be a mistranscription of whatever it is supposed to be. Where did this come from?
Edit: Light is dawning. The index to the 1861 (Not 1881) Census on FamilySearch lists these four children in Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire, all born in Dunbartonshire. To see what the address actually reads, rather than some bizarre mistranscription, you need to view the original at SP.
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Forfarian , think that should be the 1861 Census(just noticed your edit).
The transcription I'm looking at has the address as "Back's Head Close , Kirkintilloch".
ev
The parents are -
John Duff 49 Labourer(Stonebreaker) born Ireland
Margaret Duff 45 Wife Cotton Weaver born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
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The transcription I'm looking at has the address as "Back's Head Close , Kirkintilloch".
Ah, yes. That makes a lot more sense.
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Thanks Forfarian for your input.
The 1901 cences shows my great grandmother residing in Dublin, and states she was born in Scotland. Her daughter, my greandmother is in the 1911 and states she was born in Scotland, so it seems the family moved around.
Re The info about the address, I am not sure where I retrieved it from....I need to refocus and come back to you on that one.
Thanks again for your help, it's gtreat.
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Re The info about the address, I am not sure where I retrieved it from....I need to refocus and come back to you on that one.
No need, I think ev has got the right answer.