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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: LGardner on Tuesday 28 October 14 21:42 GMT (UK)
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The mystery: Who is my 2x great grandfather? Two Ann Statters were born 1850, their births recorded in the births register for Bootle, Vol. 25, Pg. 38. The girls are first cousins. One of these babies became my great grandmother but I am unable to determine which of the brothers is my Ann's father. My Ann Statter married Isaac Helling, 2 Jun 1873, in the Parish Chuch at Dalton in Furnace, Lancashire. I know that she died at 66 yrs., 8 Apr 1916, and is buried in Dalton Cemetery. I believe the other Ann Statter died Jul/Aug/Sept 1862 at 12 years.
In the 1851 census we find both Anns living at the same address.
James Statter @35 years, head
Ann Statter @1 year, daughter
Henry Knight, @ 9 yrs., son-in-law
Richard Knight, @ 7 yrs., son-in-law
Braithwaite Statter @ 21 yrs., brother
Jane Statters @ 22 yrs., sister-in-law
Ann Statter @1 year, niece
In the 1861 census, we find both Anns still at the same address.
John Statter @ 45 yrs., head
Ann Statter @ 11 yrs., daughter
Ann Statter @ 11 yrs., niece
In the 1871 census, we find my Ann no longer living with a parent or uncle.
William Roger @ 47 yrs., head
Dinah Roger @ 39 yrs., spouse
Sharp Roger @ 11 yrs., son
Edward Roger @ 9 yrs., son
Ann Statters @ 21 yrs., servant
John Mossop @ 61 yrs., boarder
I would love to know if my family line leads to John Statter or his younger brother Braithwaite Statter.
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When "your" Ann marries Isaac, who does she name as her father?
And to cross check, have you found the "other" Anns marriage, and seen who she names as her father?e that
Ignore that - just seen the other one died as a child
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The marriage document shows a long dash in the space where a parent's name should be entered for bnoth the bride and groom. The only other telling information for the certificate is that it states the bride is from Holmrook, and the witnesses are John Hullock and Hannah Ashburner.
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The marriage document
Is this the marriage cert or something else?
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In the 1851 census we find both Anns living at the same address.
James Statter @35 years, head
Ann Statter @1 year, daughter
Henry Knight, @ 9 yrs., son-in-law
Richard Knight, @ 7 yrs., son-in-law
Braithwaite Statter @ 21 yrs., brother
Jane Statters @ 22 yrs., sister-in-law
Ann Statter @1 year, niece
You have omitted Elizabeth Statter age 32 (Sister of John) who is listed between Jane Statter sister in law and Ann Statter Niece. Have you discounted her as Anns mother.
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Can i suggest another option, given the lack of father of the (presumed) marriage certificate. If you look at 1851 there is actually another person who is not on the list presented above. Elizabeth Stater aged 32, unmarried. Ann the niece appears immediately underneath her - could she actually be the illegitimate child of Elizabeth (or another sister)
ALso on 1881 Ann gives her place of birth as Drigg, which is that of Ann the niece in 1851
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You have omitted Elizabeth Statter age 32 (Sister of John) who is listed between Jane Statter sister in law and Ann Statter Niece. Have you discounted her as Anns mother.
Ann aged one underneath is listed as servant's daughter which looks like a reference to Ann aged 32 listed as a servant.
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I have a suspicion the "other" Ann died
Deaths Q3 1862 Bootle Vol 10B, p311
Statters Ann
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Hi
I would have thought, that if there was 2 separate births entered for 2 Ann Statters on the same day, there would have been 2 different, page number, and this may be a duplicate entry for 1 Ann Statters
Margp
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Thank you all for contributing good ideas and information. The marriage document is posted on Ancestry and shows it to be from England and Wales Marriages 1538-1940. It says it is certified to be a true copy and bears a seal: General Register Office, England. Document #MXG027683.
Elizabeth Statters was indeed missing from my information. I'll have to try to discover more about her, to see if it is possible that she is the birth mother rather than the brother Braithwaite. As to the comment that the other Ann could simply be an entry error, the census documents would seem to dispute that theory.
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A tree on Ancestry has John Statters ( of 1851 census ) Marrying an Ann Knight who was a widow , maiden name Porter, she dies in March 1850 of Inflammation , Childbed ( they have death cert on tree )
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Thank you all for contributing good ideas and information. The marriage document is posted on Ancestry and shows it to be from England and Wales Marriages 1538-1940. It says it is certified to be a true copy and bears a seal: General Register Office, England. Document #MXG027683.
Elizabeth Statters was indeed missing from my information. I'll have to try to discover more about her, to see if it is possible that she is the birth mother rather than the brother Braithwaite. As to the comment that the other Ann could simply be an entry error, the census documents would seem to dispute that theory.
Hi, I think that the only way to solve this, is to send for the Birth Certificate for Ann Statters, if there is only one reference, you will only get one certificate,
Margp
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Just reading this, and I'm surprised that Margie's idea wasn't suggested earlier. Surely the first thing to do would be to send for the two birth certificates and see who the parents are on there? You know from the censuses that there were two, so I think that is the only way to sort it out.
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That would tell you the parents of both girls.
But OP was wanting to know wnich of these girls was the one that married Isaac and thus was her ancestor.
The fact that the one that married does not name a father on the marriage cert suggests she was illegitimate. Therefore , if the birth certs of the girls comfirm one to be illegitimate, then that looks the most likely candidate. The censuses are imdeed suggesting that onegirl may indeed be the illegitimate child of Elizabeth and the other a child of John (James in 1851) , rather than one a child of Braithwaite and one a child of John.
If however the birth certs of the girls confirm the latter (as OP was thinking) then they will not clarify which one married Isaac but failed to name their father on the cert!
Im of the opinion one IS the illegit child of Elizabeth (as censuses suggest) and thus it is that one that married Isaac, but certs needed to confirm 100%
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I agree with Marg and groom why not just send for certificates.
At first, I thought as Marg but then pages do have several names on them and all then have the same reference. The two children could have been born within a very short time of each other and registered together.
However, it could also just be a duplicated entry. Both show on the original.
Braithwaite is also a servant on 1851 census and Elizabeth's occupation as 'House Servant' is crossed through so it isn't quite clear whose daughter she is.
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Agree to send for certs. If Elizabeth is mother of one, illegitimate, then all sorted.
But if John is father of one, and Braithwaite the father of the other, it will not solve the OP's question!
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But at least it's a step further. Then the death certificate of the young Ann may give an address or informant which could also be a help.
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Hi
I have contacted the GRO, and it will be difficult to order these certificates, in the usual way, and they advised you e-mail certificate.services@gro.gsi.gov.uk or phone 0300 123 1837 and explain the situation
Margp
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Hi
I have contacted the GRO, and it will be difficult to order these certificates, in the usual way, and they advised you e-mail certificate.services@gro.gsi.gov.uk or phone 0300 123 1837 and explain the situation
Margp
That's interesting Marg - and strange ???
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If you have 2 entries with the same reference, which one would they choose, unless you state who the mother and father was
I have never come across this before, you learn something new every day
Marg
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You could order the 1862 death certificate. On a child's death certificate of that date you should find in the Occupation box "son/daughter of X".
www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/deaths.htm#COL6
If the Ann who died in 1862 was a daughter of John, then the "other one" will be yours. Sometimes a single mother is named: "son/daughter of X, a single woman". (I have 19th century examples of this, though the linked site says it shouldn't have been included pre 1969).
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While they were both registered Bootle, Ann who married Isaac is listed as born "Drigg", in 1881, as is the woman who is a servant in 1871, and Ann the niece (in 1851 and 1861) whereas Ann daughter of John seems to be listed as born Irton (in both 1851 and 1861).
http://www.cumbriabmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi?county=cumbria
both Ann Statters are also indexed here, with different references. One has mother's maiden name listed as PORTER, for the other mother's maiden name is blank on the index.
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the one with mmn Porter is John's daughter. There's an Ann Porter marriage to a Richard Knight in Irton in 1831, who presumably is the Ann Knight whom John marries
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKB6-DP2
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the one with mmn Porter is John's daughter. There's an Ann Porter marriage to a Richard Knight in Irton in 1831, who presumably is the Ann Knight whom John marries
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NKB6-DP2
It seems so , Mabel , I've seen some certs on the online tree I mentioned earlier , that has a marriage cert for John Statters and Ann Knight a widow , 2 Knight children are on the 1851 census as son in law(step sons) to John
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So, if you want to save money, as you now know one is definitely John and Ann's daughter you could ask for the birh certificate only if it didn't show them as the parents - that would then give you the other Ann's mother at least. I would then also get the death certificate for 1862 and hope that gave some answers.
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While they were both registered Bootle, Ann who married Isaac is listed as born "Drigg", in 1881, as is the woman who is a servant in 1871, and Ann the niece (in 1851 and 1861) whereas Ann daughter of John seems to be listed as born Irton (in both 1851 and 1861).
http://www.cumbriabmd.org.uk/cgi/birthind.cgi?county=cumbria
both Ann Statters are also indexed here, with different references. One has mother's maiden name listed as PORTER, for the other mother's maiden name is blank on the index.
I would send for the one with the mothers maiden name blank, from this site, instead of the GRO, and you will know you are getting the right one
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Have you tried to get their baptism records, maybe they could throw some light on it.
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Thank you for all your work. Today I was traveling to the northern part of the state which required an eight hour drive, so I hope you'll forgive my delay in responding promptly. Tomorrow I will begin following up on your great suggestions and see where they lead me. Meantime, please accept my sincere thanks. You're amazing!
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To those who have helped guide me, thank you. I've now received a copy of the birth record for Ann Statters, born in Drigg, 1850, and found that Elizabeth Statters, sister to John and Braithwaite Statters, is indeed her mother. We're about to rewrite the family tree!
Now, can you wonderful sleuths help me to find out more about Elizabeth? All I know is that she was born abt 1817, in Drigg, Cumberland to parents John Statters and Ann Braithwaite. Apparently she was a single mother at 32 yrs., which likely means that she never married. I would like to know if she had any other children. How long did she live, and where? And, where is she buried? Anything you can give me would be appreciated. Thank you. Happy Holidays to you and yours.
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Nearest I can find after 1851 is an ELizabeth Stoters b Drigg c1826 visiting the Knipe family in Muncaster in 1861. She has a Joseph aged 1 with her. I think it likely she dies in 1863. Joseph is in the workhouse in 1871. His birth registration is as Statters
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ALso a baptism of a JOhn to a single Elizabeth Statters in 1841 in Drigg
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NB3B-FVP
this looks to be the family in 1841 - think it's yuors!
John Statters 45
Elizabeth Statters 20
Braithwaite Statters 10
Ann Statters 5
John Statters 1 Mo
HO107, 156, 5, 4
He appears to be with grandfather John in Drigg in 1851
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However Ann b c1836 appears to be the daughter of a single woman Mary