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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Annie65115 on Sunday 26 October 14 18:47 GMT (UK)
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In yesterday's Guardian magazine were some late Victorian photos of children, including one beautiful little girl called Adelaide Springett; she's wearing a black dress, shawl and hat, a sad face, and her feet are bare and filthy.
The caption says: "Adelaide Springett Born in Feb 1893 in Wapping, both her parents were street sellers. Adelaide's twin sisters, Ellen and Margaret, died at birth; another sister, Susannah, died age 4. Adelaide's last known address was recorded in 1901 when, aged 8, she lodged with her mother at a Salvation Army shelter".
Adelaide's birth seems to be this one
Births Jun 1893
Springett Adelaide Ann St. Geo. East 1c 348
I can see her on the 1901 with her mother, Mary Springett age 39; Mary;s status is listed as "u", which I suspect means she was unmarried. However on school admissions books, Adelaide's father is given as John.
She's 5th photo down here:
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2014/oct/25/spitalfields-nippers-londons-poorest-children-in-the-early-1900s-in-pictures
This little girl's face is haunting me! Can we find out what happened to her?
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Could this be her marriage?
ADELAIDE F SPRINGETT
1915 4th quarter
CHARLES M COXON
Islington 1B 981
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Maybe - but the F as the middle name seems wrong ---
Here's the twins:
Births Jun 1891
Springett Ellen St.Geo.East 1c 409
Springett Margaret St.Geo.East 1c 409
Deaths Jun 1891
Springett Ellen 0 St. Geo. East 1c 316
Springett Margaret 0 St. Geo. East 1c 316
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A could easily be transcribed as an F.
Having said that, Adelaide Florence Springett who was born in Maidstone 1874 is in Islington in 1911, so that is probably her. A late marriage, but as there are no Coxon/Springett children very possible.
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There is a death for an Adelaide F Coxon in 1932 Middlesex - birthyear 1874
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so not this Adelaide, presumably
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Might be worth a look at - there are 2 dates of birth given for her as February 1892/93 and an 'alias' of Adelaide Ann Springett
http://bona-vacantia.com/unclaimed-estate/harling-adelaide/date-of-death/18081986
Can't see an Adelaide Springett marrying a Harling though...step father's name?
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Might be worth a look at - there are 2 dates of birth given for her as February 1892/93 and an 'alias' of Adelaide Ann Springett
http://bona-vacantia.com/unclaimed-estate/harling-adelaide/date-of-death/18081986
Can't see an Adelaide Springett marrying a Harling though...step father's name?
The 19 Feb birthday matches the 19 Feb 1893 birthdate recorded on her admission to St Joseph's Catholic School in 1897.
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Adelaide Harling b 19 Feb 1892 died Fulham Aug 1986.
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There are two school admissions as well for an Adelaide Springett
One with a DOB 19th Feb 1893 admitted 11th Oct 1897 St Joseph's School Tower Hamlets
One with a DOB 9th Dec 1892 admitted 16th April 1896 St Mary's School Tower Hamlets
The Dec one is the one with fatherJohn.
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Depending on how keen you are to find what happened to her - perhaps buying a copy of the 1986 death cert may yield some result. Must be some mention of Springett somewhere for that connection to have been made
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The 1946 electoral roll shows a Frank Harling and Adelaide Ann Harling at 21 Cleveland Square, Paddington.
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Maybe - but the F as the middle name seems wrong ---
Here's the twins:
Births Jun 1891
Springett Ellen St.Geo.East 1c 409
Springett Margaret St.Geo.East 1c 409
Deaths Jun 1891
Springett Ellen 0 St. Geo. East 1c 316
Springett Margaret 0 St. Geo. East 1c 316
The Springett twins are buried at St George in the East, Stepney on 15 May 1891 - Margaret died aged 1 hour and Ellen aged 3/4 hour. St George in the East Union is given - is that the workhouse?
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The Springett twins are buried at St George in the East, Stepney on 15 May 1891 - Margaret died aged 1 hour and Ellen aged 3/4 hour. St George in the East Union is given - is that the workhouse?
How sad.
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I can't find Susannah who died age 4
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Me neither - I can find a Susan Eliza dying aged 3 in 1891 (Whitechapel) but Mum and Dad seem to be William J Springett and Margaret.
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1891 Census : 90 Grove Street, St George's East
William J. Springett Age : 39 Dock Labourer Born : Maryleborne
Margaret Springett Age : 29 Born : St Luke's East
William J. Springett Age : 6 Born : St George (he can be found as William John b. c Mar1885)
Susan E. Springett Age : 3 Born : Mile End ( she Susannah Eliza b. c Mar1888)
This seems to be the right family.
William J. - possibly being "William John" - I haven't found him born Maryleborne (c1842)
Margaret possibly appearing as Mary in the 1901 Census at the Salvation Army with Adelaide.
Susan E. possibly being "Susan Eliza" who died not very long after the census in 1891.
Two last thoughts.
There is a marriage September 1884 - Mile End Old Town.
William John Springett and Margaret Haley.
There is a Margaret Springett, age 47 died Whitechapel December 1907. The age and name
combination - might be right. If her maiden name was Haley - I can't find the birth in St Luke's.
Maybe someone with a bit better understanding of the Parish's might see her ?
So curious what became of this little girl Adelaide.
Heather
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Marriage 1885 - it is there :)
11 Aug 1884 St Augustine , Stepney
William John Springett Age : 33 Bachelor Labourer 33 F...... Place Son of John Springett - Publican
Margaret Haley Age : 23 Spinster 11 F..... Place E. Daughter of Patrick Haley - Labourer
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Morning all,
I stumbled across this post whilst trying once again to locate Adelaide.
Agree that she is probably the Adelaide Hurling on the Bona list but like all of you I cannot find a marriage for her and her Husband who i think is Frank Hurling.
I wonder if Frank was previously married? Despite trying different permutations I cannot find
any marriage record on either BMD, Ancestry or Genes.
I wonder if their relationship was not formalised as he was legally bound to another?
There is an Adelaide and Frank in the electoral rolls from 1939-1951.
I think he may have died in Chelsea in 1952 as there is an Adelaide is living in the late 50's-60's in Chelsea.
There is still a question mark over the life and outcome of her Brother William John Springett who is in the forces, he enlisted in Spitalfields in 1907 and gives his address as a boarding house.
There is a marriage for a William J Springett who married who marries in 1921, it looks as if this Wm died in 1926...
Another possibility is a death of a William J Springett in 1954 which is the same place I think his Father died.
Perhaps between us all we can try to solve a few of the outstanding questions we have in the search of Adelaide...
Where is she in the census of 1911? (I have traced her Great Aunts and Uncles and she does not appear to be with them)
Where is Adealide pre the 1939 electoral roll?
If Frank was married, who was his Wife? (There are a few possibilities)
Is Frank British or did he come over during the war?
What happened to her Brother?
Anyone got any other avenues we need to pursue?
Kind regards
Helen
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If the Frank was the one who died in Chelsea in 1952, he would be about 10 years older than Adelaide. There is a Frank Harling birth reg Kensington district Q3 1882.
Marriage for a Frank Harling Q3 1904 Brentford district.
Frank can be found in 1911 and the entry is interesting...
and so can his missing wife
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Thanks for the head up on 1911 census.
That new information could well be right.
Kind regards
Helen
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Yes those were the records I was referring to but we cannot post 1911 details due to copyright reasons.
There is a marriage of a Margaret E Harling in Thanet in the same quarter Frank dies to a Mr Allen, and a death of a Margaret E Allen the following year in Thanet her age would match with Frank's wife.
Might be coincidence but she was from that area.
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There is a Margaret Springett, age 47 died Whitechapel December 1907. The age and name
combination - might be right. If her maiden name was Haley - I can't find the birth in St Luke's.
Maybe someone with a bit better understanding of the Parish's might see her ?
On 1881 census is a Haley family with Patrick Haley head born Limerick abt 1834 occ labourer and one of the children is a daughter Margaret born abt 1859 St Pancras. But same family in 1861, where Margaret is one year old, she was born in Limehouse which matches with a Stepney registration in Q1 1860.
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Hi Lizzie,
I have the same as you regarding Haley family but do not know a lot about these parishes either.
I cannot confirm any birth records for any of the Haley girls as I have not found their baptisms.
The census records for this family are not all there but the Father is in the electoral roll of 1888 and 1890.
I may not be correct but he may be the inmate in M.E.N.T. in 1901?
I have the marriage of one Sister and the other girls are purely guess work and cannot provide thus far, any more information as to the whereabouts of Adelaide.
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Oops Mile End Old Town.
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There is still a question mark over the life and outcome of her Brother William John Springett who is in the forces, he enlisted in Spitalfields in 1907 and gives his address as a boarding house.
There is a marriage for a William J Springett who married who marries in 1921, it looks as if this Wm died in 1926...
Just found service record for William John jnr on FindMyPast. When he enlisted in 1907 he gave next of kin as father and mother: William and Margaret which implies they were still alive in 1907.??
The 1921 marriage is on ancestry, not image just transcription, but confirms groom's father is also William John. FreeBMD has birth registration of Elizabeth L Springett Q3 1925 West Ham, mother's maiden name Holley. Can't see any other children so would fit with him dying in 1926.
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The addresses of Frank and Margaret on the 1911 census are also interesting!
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Lizzie, that is what I have for Elizabeth but am waiting to see if it can be confirmed at all.
Wm enlists on 30/01/1907 and his Mother has a death record that may match in oct-dec 1907 so she was alive when he signed up?
I totally agree Annie.
I have found the same situation as this with a relative of mine.
Slightly different but all 3 lived together for many years and all helped raise the young children together regardless of parentage. Quite an enlightened family really for the 1930's.
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I've found an Adelaide Springford of nearly the right age in 1911. I can't make out the place of birth.
Obviously the name isn't correct but I wonder if this might be our Adelaide; three points:
1. I can't find any birth registered in this name anywhere in the country for a wide range of years around Adelaide's birth year
2. On the same census page, a few up, is another young woman whose surname is also Springford. Her birth is on freeBMD.
3. This was a big building with multiple occupants. It wouldn't be surprising if the person who filled in several of the names got one or two slightly wrong.
What do you all think?
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That could well be a possibility as names are sometimes transcribed incorrectly.
She is listed as born in Forest Gate? And the other girl is said to born in what I think says Plaistow?
Think Forest Gate is a bit further out from what I can see on the map it looks like it is in Newham?
It could be like you say, all occupants details may have been completed by the Manageress who may not have known her background at all.
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Hmm. Wapping and Forest Gate look as though they are quite some way apart.
This is the other Springford on the page
Births Sep 1890
Springford Henrietta W. Ham 4a 83
I can't see her in 1901 either! But there is a possible siting in the workhouse in 1891 where there was also a 22 yr old Eliza Springford ?her mum. As I said, I can't see any Adelaide Springfords at all anywhere on freeBMD.
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if anyone is still looking into this I found some unclaimed property with her name on it.
http://www.unclaimed-estates.org.uk/bv862623/1
unless in the UK this is standard advertising in which case oops.
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It looks very official doesn't it ! I think they are a Probate Research Company.
Here's the link to the governments Bona Vacantia list
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/unclaimed-estates-list#the-list (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/unclaimed-estates-list#the-list)
Nesta
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Hi
I note below the reference to William J Springett who I believe is my great grandfather. He died a few months after Elizabeth Springett (my grand mother was born).
I believe he had siblings but I'm not sure who they are.
Does anyone have information on this?
Morning all,
I stumbled across this post whilst trying once again to locate Adelaide.
Agree that she is probably the Adelaide Hurling on the Bona list but like all of you I cannot find a marriage for her and her Husband who i think is Frank Hurling.
I wonder if Frank was previously married? Despite trying different permutations I cannot find
any marriage record on either BMD, Ancestry or Genes.
I wonder if their relationship was not formalised as he was legally bound to another?
There is an Adelaide and Frank in the electoral rolls from 1939-1951.
I think he may have died in Chelsea in 1952 as there is an Adelaide is living in the late 50's-60's in Chelsea.
There is still a question mark over the life and outcome of her Brother William John Springett who is in the forces, he enlisted in Spitalfields in 1907 and gives his address as a boarding house.
There is a marriage for a William J Springett who married who marries in 1921, it looks as if this Wm died in 1926...
Another possibility is a death of a William J Springett in 1954 which is the same place I think his Father died.
Perhaps between us all we can try to solve a few of the outstanding questions we have in the search of Adelaide...
Where is she in the census of 1911? (I have traced her Great Aunts and Uncles and she does not appear to be with them)
Where is Adealide pre the 1939 electoral roll?
If Frank was married, who was his Wife? (There are a few possibilities)
Is Frank British or did he come over during the war?
What happened to her Brother?
Anyone got any other avenues we need to pursue?
Kind regards
Helen
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Hello, I think I'm the one you're looking for. William John Springett was my Grandfather.
He married my Grandmother Elizabeth Jane Holley on the 13th August 1921. He was a Flour Miller, living at 46 Croydon Rd, Plaistow. His father, also named William John Springett, is noted as a Costermonger.
They had a daughter Elizabeth Lily (my mother), on the 9th September 1925. Her birth certificate was square rather than the usual rectangular type that we know today. He is a General Labourer at this point.
William, a labourer at a flour mills, aged 38, died of a heart attack on the 23rd August 1926, still at Croydon Rd.
I have a photo of my Grandmother at my mothers wedding, 11th December 1943. She is with her second husband William John Cooke, who died 1950. Lizzie died aged 64 in 1955.
A lady from a Spitalfields group contacted my nephew last November and I passed him some of the above information, including what my mother told me some years ago about her family coming from Marylebone.
Does anyone have any details of his Army service? My mother told me he served in India and had contracted something during his service that may have led to his death.
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Hi
Thank you for the information however this does not explain a link between William Springett and Adelaide Springett.
Did he have a sister called Adelaide that you are aware of?
Hello, I think I'm the one you're looking for. William John Springett was my Grandfather.
He married my Grandmother Elizabeth Jane Holley on the 13th August 1921. He was a Flour Miller, living at 46 Croydon Rd, Plaistow. His father, also named William John Springett, is noted as a Costermonger.
They had a daughter Elizabeth Lily (my mother), on the 9th September 1925. Her birth certificate was square rather than the usual rectangular type that we know today. He is a General Labourer at this point.
William, a labourer at a flour mills, aged 38, died of a heart attack on the 23rd August 1926, still at Croydon Rd.
I have a photo of my Grandmother at my mothers wedding, 11th December 1943. She is with her second husband William John Cooke, who died 1950. Lizzie died aged 64 in 1955.
A lady from a Spitalfields group contacted my nephew last November and I passed him some of the above information, including what my mother told me some years ago about her family coming from Marylebone.
Does anyone have any details of his Army service? My mother told me he served in India and had contracted something during his service that may have led to his death.
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Reply #18 mentions Adelaide having a brother who enlisted in 1907. He was my Grandfather. My mother told me the only person left on her side of the family was an aunt, who I believe was her father's sister This aunt lived around the corner from us in Canning Town and I visited her a couple of times as a child. I suspect that aunt may well have been Adelaide Springett. A check of the Electoral Rolls for the mid fifties in that road may decide the issue. I'm waiting for some BMD cert's that will help.
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Adelaide's birth certificate shows her having the same parents as my grandfather. Solved.
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Hi I have been following this conversation, most fascinating, it really warms the heart to read how the face of a little girl can move people to action 114 years later, Do you know if she ever got married, had children and when she died and where she may be buried?
thank you for your time
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Thank you Marcoapolo. The little girl turned out to be my Great Aunt. My nephew asked for some family tree information which he passed on to Spitalfields Life. A couple of months later, a probate genealogy research company sent me a letter advising I may be related to Adelaide and for 40% of her estate would make a claim for me! A copy of her birth certificate showed her parents and the address were the same as my grandfather. The preceding pages show others have tried to 'fill the gaps' without success. I have recently retired and hope to find the time to research Adelaides life. Discussions with my mother many years ago, which I noted and anecdotes from siblings offer a couple of more clues to follow up. I'll probably share the results on here but have no idea when. I hope to have a picture of Adelaide framed for display.
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Ionicus - are you and Jenny Anne related ?
Thanks
Nesta
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I believe so Nesta. The details fit with my family tree and I have a niece Jenny.
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Thank you
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Posted by: IONICUS
« on: Monday 18 May 15 13:17 BST (UK) » Insert Quote
Adelaide's birth certificate shows her having the same parents as my grandfather. Solved.
Wonderful news!
Haven't been back to check this Adelaide thread in a while as I have been working on other things, then this just popped up!
Say hi to Your Nephew (B) from me, he is a little tardy with his emailing but I guess he is busy with his studies?
The war document of enlistment for William was not on ancestry, it was on Genes Reunited.
My membership on both these have now lapsed and unfortunately once lapsed you cannot view the original documents, hopefully someone may be able to give you the details on enlistment if you ask for a look up.
Hope the family are well and good luck in your future.
Kind regards Helen
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Hi Hellygreen, You're right about (B)! I have the enlistment papers for WJS junior but haven't yet found his War Service record. I suspect he changed Battalions on the out break of war. He and Adelaide resided in 'The Worst Street in London' which was the focal point of the Jack the Ripper murders. Of course, I now have the book and it illustrates why Adelaide and her little friends dressed and looked the way they did. I think it's going to take some time to research Adelaide but when I have something, I'll post it here. Thanks for your reply.
King regards John
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Hi 'Uncle John'
I did ask B if he wanted to view the tree on Ancestry that I made during my research for the book.
The offer is still open if you want to view it?
Helen
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Yes, it's me and yes I'd love to see the family tree.
I have a picture of my mother aged 18 in 1942 and I think there's a resemblance between her and her aunt Adelaide.
I'd like to put a picture of Adelaide on the wall but I'm not sure if copyright allows it.
I found there's some instances in my life of history repeating itself from my grandfather William John Springett.
Regards Uncle John
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Hi,
Off out in a minute but will be in touch later to share the information I have.
I think Horace Warner who took the original photographs owned the original copyright, his family may well now have the rights passed on to them.
If you contact The Gentle Author on Spitalfield Life he may be able to help you with gaining the permission you need.
I have seen a few of the 'Nippers' images used on other websites but am unsure whether this is permitted and I think it's maybe best to check first.
Speak later.
Kind regards
Helen
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Some more info on this poor family. The mortality rate was shocking, even for those times.
Adelaides twin sisters Ellen and Margaret were born prematurely on the 15 Mar 1891, in the Raines Street, Workhouse Infirmary, Wapping and died of Atelectasis. Something to do with the lungs not being fully formed and unable to support life. I've no idea at what stage of pregnancy this may have been.
Her other sister Susan Eliza died on the 19 Jun 1891, aged 3, in the London Hospital, Whitechapel of Bronchial Pneumonia.
When Adelaide was born into these circumstances in 1893, her prospects will have been bleak indeed. However, she had her 9 year old brother (my grandfather), to help look after her. Reminds me of Josh Perrott - Child of the Jago.
Of Margaret's five children only two survived, having lost three in three months. She herself died suddenly in the Whitechapel Infirmary on the 11 Oct 1907 of Chronic Alcoholism. The post-mortem described it as 'natural'.
Gawd knows where the 'old man' is in all this.
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I'm probably projecting too much, but to me there's a premature worldweariness and sadness in Adelaide's eyes in that photo -- the photo that started this thread off.
I'm guessing her father was probably also down the pub through all this!
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More than likely although I haven't yet found any evidence of this. If his wife was a 'drinker' she may have picked it up from him, or, they may have both been partial to a glass of two of ale.
They were married on the 11 Aug 1884 and their son (my grandfather) was born 8 Dec 1884. His father was a publican. Perhaps they met in his pub!
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I'm saddened at the childhood that Adelaide, and countless others, had, but I feel quite ridiculously pleased that through this thread we traced her and that she survived :)
I'll bet there's previous few memorials to many of the children who were Adelaide's peers. I'm glad that this thread is, in a way, a memorial to her and maybe to others who were featured.
For completion, here's the link again
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2014/oct/25/spitalfields-nippers-londons-poorest-children-in-the-early-1900s-in-pictures
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I see something approaching fear in that little girls eyes. Perhaps she was frightened of the photographer, Horace Warner, or afraid of how her day would turn out when her parent(s) got back from the pub, never knowing if she was going to get something to eat or a place to sleep.
The Whitechapel Infirmary was an institution that played a large part in her family's life and she was admitted there on Tuesday 8 Jun 1915, aged 22. She stayed until 19 Jun 1915, being treated for Erysipelas, an unpleasant skin condition, usually caused by a scratch becoming infected. No antibiotics in those those days or it would have been take the pills and carry on. Occupation - Servant. Her address was in Gun St., Spitalfields.
She survived and had a somewhat normal life from what I've found. Except for Frank!
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Little Adelaide first started school at St Marys, Spital Square. Her mother put her date of birth back by 3 months to get her in early. She stayed there for 15 months, leaving on the 27 Jun 96. An easy form of child minding perhaps or a safe place to leave her while she was out hawking the streets? That's quite an early age to start school.
Her next stint at school comes after a fifteen month gap, when she attends St Josephs on 11 Oct 97. Here, her correct date of birth is given as 19 Feb 93, making her 4 years and 7 months old.
The fathers name on the admissions register is shown as John. It would not be unusual where the father and son have the same name for one of them to be known by his middle name.
The addresses given on both admissions registers are pretty much the same place. Millers Ct was part of 26 Dorset St. Adelaide lived at number 12, next door to where Jack the Rippers last victim was murdered in 1888. Apparently the landlord didn't clear the mess up and four years later the new occupants were living with the bloodstains still on the walls and floors.
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Apparently the landlord didn't clear the mess up and four years later the new occupants were living with the bloodstains still on the walls and floors.
We're used to reading about the dreadful conditions some people had to endure, but that is truly appalling
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In order to get a better insight into Adelaide's life and times, l bought some books on the subject. I found that detail in 'The Worst Street in London' by Fiona Rule. It paints a picture of uncaring landlords who subjected their tenants to a life of misery in their pursuit of profits. The author, Jack London, lived in the area for a short time and wrote 'People of the Abyss' about the 'Nichol', a couple of streets away from Dorset St. There are other books on the subject and they all paint the same picture of people trapped by circumstances that they can't free themselves from.
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Adelaides twin sisters Ellen and Margaret were born prematurely on the 15 Mar 1891, in the Raines Street, Workhouse Infirmary, Wapping and died of Atelectasis. Something to do with the lungs not being fully formed and unable to support life. I've no idea at what stage of pregnancy this may have been.
Can happen at any stage but normally under 34weeks they don't have enough surfactant to keep the lungs inflated, between 34 and 37 weeks they produce more but some will still struggle at that stage
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A very interesting topic.
I have a few things to add
The 1901 photo, Adelaide and her mother were living at Sally army shelter in hanbury st. So she wasn't living at Millers court at the time that was taken.Other than the school admissions cant find anything linking her to that address. But she and her mother Mary ( not Margaret) are listed in that census as living in the shelter.
Cant find her on the 1911 census although theres reference to her checking in at the workhouse infirmary in 1915, stating she was a servant and lived at 53 Gun St.
Unable to search by street address to see if there are similar names to hers living at Gun st in 1911 census.
Found a photo from 1912 taken on the corner of Crispin st and Dorset st. The girl looks remarkably like her and is dressed in what looks like a black servants dress (could even be a tea room uniform) and is with 3 children , one in a pushchair. Unfortunately its impossible to zoom in with any clarity to see if the girl has that pear shaped mark on her cheek. She would have been 19-20 at the time and it fits that she would be a nanny come servant and it is just round the corner from Gun St.
The other girl in the 1901 photo, I'm guessing is her best friend and further guessing that she may be one of the 2 girls listed of that age in the shelter in the 1901 census.
Haven't been able to find any reference of her mother dying at the workhouse in 1907. However there is a reference to Horace Warner( the photographer) saying that he kept in touch with the family until 1906, death is not mentioned.
My question is; is there a way you can search by address on Ancestry or other sites as finding her on the 1911 census in Gun st is the missing link at the moment
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My question is; is there a way you can search by address on Ancestry or other sites as finding her on the 1911 census in Gun st is the missing link at the moment
Yes.
I assume you mean Gun St Spitalfields?
I had a look and couldn't find anything I would claim as Springett
I cant say anything more as its 1911.
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How do I do it then please ?
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I think you are on the right track so don't be discouraged.
Its Rootschat policy that 1911 Records cant be displayed.
I would visit a library that has a Family History section and ask to use the computers to get FREE access to subscription sites. e.g FindMyPast has a section searchable by address or name for the 1901 and 1911 Census. You could try using that. Or someone may send a private message to you with what information they may find. I couldn't see anything on a search of Gun St Spitalfields. Others who know the areas better may have better search techniques or know the nuances.
Good luck :)
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I think you are on the right track so don't be discouraged.
Its Rootschat policy that 1911 Records cant be displayed.
I would visit a library that has a Family History section and ask to use the computers to get FREE access to subscription sites. e.g FindMyPast has a section searchable by address or name for the 1901 and 1911 Census. You could try using that. Or someone may send a private message to you with what information they may find. I couldn't see anything on a search of Gun St Spitalfields. Others who know the areas better may have better search techniques or know the nuances.
Good luck :)
Thanks for that , I would specifically like to know who lived at 53 Gun st in the 1911 census. I'm hoping I will see 3 children ranging from 3-9 years old. That would suggest from the 1912 photo I mentioned and her admision of being a servant in 1915, that was where she worked.
I would be happy if someone messaged me those details if poss : ))
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Like David, I've looked on the 1911 for Gun Street as an address but can't see it, although it is there in 1901.
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Like David, I've looked on the 1911 for Gun Street as an address but can't see it, although it is there in 1901.
Perhaps it was a shop then. If it was that makes things a bit curious !!
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In 1901 it appears to be a house occupied by 3 large families from Russia.
The Rosenburgs x 5
The Brodtmans x 10
The Robbinowitz x 11
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In 1901 it appears to be a house occupied by 3 large families from Russia.
The Rosenburgs x 5
The Brodtmans x 10
The Robbinowitz x 11
Excellent , so she could well have been a servant there then. Also the kids in the photo from 1912 look kind of foreign and the little girl she's pushing in the pushchair is definatley dressed in a foreign way.
Anyway if that is the case why would she give that as her home address but not be registered there
when visiting that infirmary in 1915 ?
Perhaps the answer is the 4 year time lapse and could have lived anywhere from 1906-7 when her mother died, but from her appearance in the 1912 photo ( if its her ), she looks a smart working girl , so probably wouldnt be short of work and good accomodation.
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In 1907/8/9 there's a Mrs Adelaide Springett and a Miss Isabella Baker living at 11 St. Mary's Square, Paddington. Adelaide would have been 13 years old at the time, so most likely not her.
In the 1939 Registry she is living in Paddington with Frank Harling. She's a
charlady at that point and Frank is a PO mail porter.
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The 1911 England Census Summary Books, show an Adelaide Springett as a lodger in Friern Road, Camberwell. Can't see her moving south of the river though.
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My guess is that she was a servant, then maybe a nurse in WW1. Maybe she'll re-appear in the 1921 census !!
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Here's another lead that I've been doing some work on. Who is the other girl and boy in the photo with her. Here's how far I've got.
Assuming that when those photos were taken, Adelaide and her mother were living at the salvation army shelter in Hanbury st. Maybe thats where Horace Warner got some of the kids from for the photo's, as they are all staged !! Plus Adelaide is obviously dressed up and knew the photo's were to be taken, as is the boy. Which suggests an arangement had been made , rather than him just turning up on streets hoping for the best. So I think he had a connection with the shelter. The comment that he had remained in contact with Adelaide and her mother until the mothers death would bear this out.
There are 2 other girls of around Adelaide's age in that shelter in the 1901 census and a few boys. Now I reckon Adelaide would have been friends with any girl roughly her age, maybe best friends. The 2 other girls listed , I've researched a bit and the boy I believe ended up being killed in ww1.As Ive only got Ancestry tracing the other 2 girls lead to a bit of a dead end but I believe the boy was called James and like I said was killed in WW1.
Now when Adelaides mother died she would have been 13, where would she have gone ? Into service perhaps or maybe living with someone from the shelter that she had got to know.
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comment that he had remained in contact with Adelaide and her mother until the mothers death would bear this out./quote]
Where is this comment that Horace Warner kept in touch with the family?
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Where is the comment that Horace Warner kept in touch with the family, please?
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It was on the photo of her from some source I can't readily remember but I'll find it . That aside though is there any mileage with the other 2 pictured with her ?
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Thanks. I haven't looked at the others in the photo yet. I like your theory of the photo's being posed.
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Adelaides pic and the one with her 2 friends are taken against white back drops , like a sheet hanging behind for instance. Adelaide is obviously in her best clothes and the hat I doubt she would have worn on a daily basis ! They are also out of sync with the other pics in the set as they were taken outside houses or in back yards. Just makes me wonder that they could have easily been taken anywhere and not necessarily Dorset st, so would seem that they are arranged poses , which in turn suggests she would have met Horace before!
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At 1.25 on Wednesday 9th Oct 1907, Margaret Springett, flower seller, aged 45 was admitted to the Workhouse Infirmary suffering from Mania. On the 11th Oct 1907 she was dead. Her address is 31 Duval/Dorset St. and her husband, William John is homeless. What appears to be her alternative next of kin is daug Margt c/o Mrs Boyes 53 Gun St. Not sure of the Boyes name, could be Boyer, Bogel. She had a daughter Margaret who died at birth many years earlier. Adelaide aged 14 was living at 53 Gun St. at the time. Her Death Certificate has her cause of death as Sudden - Chronic Alcoholic and a post mortem required. Very sad end of a life of extreme poverty.
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Very odd for many reasons ! How is it known William was homeless and where was he at the time Adelaide and her mother were registered at Hanbury st workhouse in 1901 ? Adelaide could have been a servant at gun st but why give the name of your next of kin as your dead daughter but with a proper address ? Why go from a workhouse in Hanbury st just to a doss house at 31 Dorset st ? Given that Adelaide gave the Gun st address in 1915 when booking into the infirmary and in the 1911 census there were 3 large Jewish families living at that address and now someone else called Boyes as well. What was Adelaide doing there for 8 years plus ?
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(http://)
Sadly. The autor of the pics said in an interview that she died in 1905.
She looks exactly like my 10 uears old daughter.
It felt so sad.
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Hi,
As I'm sure many of you are - especially the original poster - I'm absolutely haunted by the picture of little Adelaide Springett. A beautiful young girl, born into poverty.
Does anyone know anymore about her please? From what I gather, she was married and lived in Chelsea until the grand old age of 91(?)
I know it sounds strange but for some reason I need to know that she lived a good and happy life after what she went through in her early years.
Does anyone know her final resting place please? I live in south London and I'd like to pay my respects, if that is at all possible.
Thanks very much for any information.
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We know that Adelaide was alive in 1915 , she checked into a workhouse infirmary ! We know at that time she lived at 53 Gun St.
We do not know when and where she died, we don't know if she got married and or had children or not. We don't know what happened to her father, whether he was around or not when her mother died.
I'm worried there doesn't appear to be a marriage record for her but then again not so worried as there doesn't appear to be a death certificate in the name of Springett either.
53 Gun St is the key I feel and maybe the next census will have her living there. But for now we have her as a 22 year old un-married woman in 1915. So she didn't sign up for WW1 as a nurse or such like but must have been working doing something!
She checked into that infirmary with a skin condition brought on by filthy conditions ! This would suggest she probably was not in service as she would have access to washing facilities.
My guess is that she was doing a ' dirty' job and as it was WW1 maybe she worked in munitions factory or something.
The chances are at some stage she would have got married before she was 30, certainly by the middle of the 1920's . Find her married name, then the rest should be easily traceable !
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Without reading back again through the 9 pages, do we have a date of birth? If so it could be checked against the 1939 register.
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Birthday either 19/02/1893 or 09/12/1892
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Ooooh ... my eye was drawn to this thread, because I've just found Springetts / Springates in my tree ... albeit MUCH earlier: in 16th / 17th century Hawkhurst. Nevertheless, that line eventually migrates into the East End of London, too.
If any other Springett descendants posting / reading here have traced their line back to Hawkhurst, do please get in touch so we can compare notes.
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In 1901 it appears to be a house occupied by 3 large families from Russia.
The Rosenburgs x 5
The Brodtmans x 10
The Robbinowitz x 11
Excellent , so she could well have been a servant there then. Also the kids in the photo from 1912 look kind of foreign and the little girl she's pushing in the pushchair is definatley dressed in a foreign way.
Rather a late return to this thread but here's my twopennorth more --
I would be surprised if Adelaide were a servant in an east end house occupied by three families from Russia. If you look into the lives of Russian Jews who had immigrated into London's East End, they were mostly living in dire poverty and overcrowding, and not many of them would have had servants! (I think it's fair to assume that those families above were Jewish given their surnames!)
Where is the info that Adelaide was admitted to an infirmary in 1915? And I would like to see this other photo that's been mentioned, could anyone give a link for it please?
The 1939 register info backs up the electoral register of 1946 with the added bonus of confirming an appropriate date of birth ;D - I feel sure, from what we've found, that Adelaide Springett became Adelaide Harling, with or (much more likely) without a marriage to formalise that..
Finally, to newcomers who mourn Adelaide's "premature death" -- please read the rest of the thread! ::)
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It's odd that Gun St can't be found on the 1911 census as I've just been looking at old maps and it was definitely there and didn't undergo a name change!
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Annie if you do a search on Ancestry for Adelaide you will see the infirmary admission listed there .
If not a servant at Gun St what was she doing giving that address when checking into the infirmary, she either lived there or worked there or was lying for some reason.
You refer to evidence that 'we' have found relating to her becoming Adelaide Harling , what evidence , what proof is there of that ?
Lastly the other photo of her with another girl and boy was in the book spitalfiels nippers by Horace Warner. I speculate that the other 2 kids may ave been living at the Salvation Army shelter while Adelaide and her mother were there. The girls name could have been Elder Stump who was 7 at the time and also lived with her mother at the shelter. Would be strange if they didn't at least know each other let alone be friends ! Horace Warner could well of had access to that shelter as a Quaker thereby meeting the kids and arranging the photo shoots, as they don't appear to be just random.
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You refer to evidence that 'we' have found relating to her becoming Adelaide Harling , what evidence , what proof is there of that ?
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I think this may come from the post at the beginning of the thread where Adelaide Harling also known as Adelaide Springett was found on the bona vacatia list and the death of Adelaide Harling where her date of birth matched that of an Adelaide Springett entry to a school.
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You refer to evidence that 'we' have found relating to her becoming Adelaide Harling , what evidence , what proof is there of that ?
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[/quote
I think this may come from the post at the beginning of the thread where Adelaide Harling also known as Adelaide Springett was found on the bona vacatia list and the death of Adelaide Harling where her date of birth matched that of an Adelaide Springett entry to a school.
A bit tenuous I feel !
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I'm afraid I don't think that you are going to get any concrete proof, but I wouldn't describe what people have found as tenuous, given as it has the same date of birth that links to several records including the 1939 register.
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[/quote]
I think this may come from the post at the beginning of the thread where Adelaide Harling also known as Adelaide Springett was found on the bona vacatia list and the death of Adelaide Harling where her date of birth matched that of an Adelaide Springett entry to a school.
[/quote]
Note the date of birth listed on that document is 19/02/1892 . Adelaides birthday has been verified as either 19/02/1893 or 19/12/1892 .
So very tenuous indeed I think , hat she became Adelaide Harling !!
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The biggest proof I think comes from that bona vacantia site where her date of birth is given as 19.2.1892 and Aliases: Adelaide Ann Springett Adelaide Anne Harling Adelaide Ann Harling
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The biggest proof I think comes from that bona vacantia site where her date of birth is given as 19.2.1892 and Aliases: Adelaide Ann Springett Adelaide Anne Harling Adelaide Ann Harling
So you're just going to ignore the evidence that her birthday is 19/02/1893 and there is no other mention of her having a middle name let alone it being Ann.
How do you explain the discrepancy in the birthday ??
However I do concede that the reference to the alias is strange ! Wonder if she had been in trouble with the law for her to have an alias ?? Why else would you use one other than to cover up sme sort of crime ??
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Birth
ADELAIDE ANN SPRINGETT
Birth year 1893
Birth quarter 2
District ST. GEORGE IN THE EAST London
Volume 1C Page 348
The first post gives her birth as Feb 1893.
How do you explain the discrepancy in the birthday ??
My grandmother lost a year, she claimed she was born 1883 and that is what my uncle would have registered her death as, if he hadn't found her birth certificate.
As I said, I don't think we'll ever get 100% proof either way.
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However I do concede that the reference to the alias is strange ! Wonder if she had been in trouble with the law for her to have an alias ?? Why else would you use one other than to cover up sme sort of crime ??
I don't think so, I think she was just living with Frank Harling (see 1939 register and 1940s electoral registers) but never married him, just used his name. Then when she dies intestate, she is recorded under her legal name of Springett, but the name she was known as was also recorded. Any heirs would have to come from the Springett family.
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Have you seen the death certificate ?
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As this isn't any relation to me, or anyone on the thread I doubt if anyone is going to spend money on it!
To my mind, and several others on here, Adelaide Harling and Adelade Springett are one and the same. However if you want to send for the certificate and prove us wrong, I would be the first to admit I've made a mistake. Can you come up with any better proof?
Added: Just thought, as she was on the Bona Vacantia list her death can't have been registered by a relative or anyone who knew her well, so the certificate may not help much.
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As this isn't any relation to me, or anyone on the thread I doubt if anyone is going to spend money on it!
To my mind, and several others on here, Adelaide Harling and Adelade Springett are one and the same. However if you want to send for the certificate and prove us wrong, I would be the first to admit I've made a mistake. Can you come up with any better proof?
Added: Just thought, as she was on the Bona Vacantia list her death can't have been registered by a relative or anyone who knew her well, so the certificate may not help much.
But you said both her names were recorded on the death certificate !!!
I m happy to order a copy but I think the only thing I'm going to see is the name Adelaide Ann Harling which of course proves nothing !
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I suspect that the BV list gets its information from the death cert - informant listed on BV site is London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham Social Services Department
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But you said both her names were recorded on the death certificate !!!
Then when she dies intestate, she is recorded under her legal name of Springett, but the name she was known as was also recorded.
No, I said when she died intestate she was recorded under both names. That wouldn't be on the death certificate, it was from the bona vacantia list.
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She would not be listed under both names unless they were absolutely sure that she used both of them. For example she may have been known to the council as Harling as she and her partner presented as married. Her bank account might be more historic and in the name of Springett. My partner uses two different surnames birth certificate, passport and driving license are in one. Bank account, utilities bills and personal life he uses the other.
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No, I said when she died intestate she was recorded under both names. That wouldn't be on the death certificate, it was from the bona vacantia list.
[/quote]
So your entire case rests on the name of Adelaide Ann Springett being quoted as a known alias.
I agree that alone as it stands is quite compelling. I wonder why though no proper marriage and no apparent kids from the couple either.
By the way you said as she was no ones relative on this site, no one would be prepared to pay for the death certificate. Well someone has claimed she was their aunt or great aunt. All seemed to fit !!!!
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So your entire case rests on the name of Adelaide Ann Springett being quoted as a known alias.
No, that plus the other evidence including that from 1939, 1940 registers, date on death registration and BV list.
Perhaps Frank Harling was already married so they couldn't legally marry. I hunted for ages for a marriage for my aunt but eventually found her "husband" was already married. She had just taken his name and they lived as husband and wife. We don't know when Adelaide and Frank Harling met, just that they are together from 1939. If it wasn't long before that, she would have been mid 40s, so perhaps that is why there are no children.
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Perhaps Frank Harling was already married so they couldn't legally marry. I hunted for ages for a marriage for my aunt but eventually found her "husband" was already married. She had just taken his name and they lived as husband and wife. We don't know when Adelaide and Frank Harling met, just that they are together from 1939. If it wasn't long before that, she would have been mid 40s, so perhaps that is why there are no children.
[/quote]
It's strange that this pretty girl was not snapped up when she was younger and of child bearing age !!
You would have thought given her circumstances with her mum dying ,her dad apparently absent or dead and her sisters all dead that she would have been desperate for marriage as quick as possible just to get some security.
One thing she did have going for her was her looks so as I say I'm astonished she wasn't snapped up !!
Still I suppose after WW1 there was a lack of young men in their 20's !!
Imagine how strong she would of had to have been with all that had happened to her, so maybe she felt she could only rely on herself and just stayed single. Also it was the time of the suffragetts, so maybe she was heavily involved in that and shunned men a bit !!
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If the Frank was the one who died in Chelsea in 1952, he would be about 10 years older than Adelaide. There is a Frank Harling birth reg Kensington district Q3 1882.
Marriage for a Frank Harling Q3 1904 Brentford district.
Frank can be found in 1911 and the entry is interesting...
and so can his missing wife
The 1939 census confirms a 10 yr age gap between Adelaide and Frank.
Check out the "missing wife".
My grandmother also "lost" a year. We didn't know her true year of birth until after she died, when we got the birth certificate. Everything else was correct - but she was born in 1905, not 1906 as she had always said.
My great-grandmother lived with a man most of her adult life and took his name. It's his name on her tombstone. However, she was actually initially married to someone else and it's her married name on her death certificate. She was refused a divorce by the court when she tried to divorce husband no.1. Divorce was difficult to get and expensive, therefore uncommon.
All or any of the above could apply to Adelaide and Frank's case. None of these scenarios was uncommon. They were repeated over and over across the country, with the sole exception that most people in this situation didn't even bother trying to get divorced! None of them seems odd enough to overwrite the coincidences that make me, and others here, feel that Adelaide Springett/Harland were the same person.
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My mum's uncle had his death registered with the year of birth off by a year. Someone just subtracted his age from the current year - something we are all prone to do when looking at censuses!
The 1939 register is full of entries where people have done the exact same thing.
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Not part of the hunt, but I spotted another photo on't'web, about 1/3 way down this page, "Little Adelaide's best and only boots" - we can't tell if that is "our" Adelaide but thought the pic was worth showing
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/06/30/in-search-of-horace-warner/
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https://goo.gl/images/VL82xA
In 1912 ,11 years later , no sign of tatty old boots on the corner of Dorset St!
And who 's that girl with the pushchair ? Could it be a grown up Adelaide ? Shame there's a shadow on the right side of her face making it impossible to see if she has Adelaides pear shape birthmark on her cheek !
Still it's exactly how I would expect her to look at 20 .
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Anyone notice Frank and estranged wife were living next door to each other in 1911?
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Not part of the hunt, but I spotted another photo on't'web, about 1/3 way down this page, "Little Adelaide's best and only boots" - we can't tell if that is "our" Adelaide but thought the pic was worth showing
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/06/30/in-search-of-horace-warner/
The boots look like the ones the girl is wearing in the previous photo..
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The boots look like the ones the girl is wearing in the previous photo..
[/quote]
To be honest I've always thought Horace Warner over egged the pudding a bit, understandably he's trying to make the biggest point possible from the obvious poverty. But was it really as bad as all that and all these kids were running around in toeless boots all the time ?
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I do wonder if the boots in the photo were actually "props".
However, I'm also reminded of my step-grandfather who was a Russian Jewish immigrant into the UK in the early 1900s and lived in Whitechapel. He was apparently considered "posh" when he started school here because he had a pair of boots, whilst many of his classmates were barefoot!
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I think the Jews in Whitechapel were more well off than most living there..Apparently they lived in the better streets,not crammed into one room of a house..Elizabeth Stride earned sixpence cleaning for the Jews.
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I think the Jews in Whitechapel were more well off than most living there..Apparently they lived in the better streets,not crammed into one room of a house..Elizabeth Stride earned sixpence cleaning for the Jews.
So the 53 Gun st address With the three big Jewish families living there that Adelaide gave in 1915 when admitting herself into the infirmary could have been where she was working , or maybe working and living. Seems strange though that she was admted with a skin condition brought on by filthy conditions if she was a servant there.
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Erysipelas is a skin infection. Whilst 'filthy conditions' wouldn't help, they are not s prerequisite for developing erysipelas.
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What are the pre-requisites for developing Erysipelas? My Grandfather William John Springett, Adelaides brother, died an early death due to Anasarca. My mother told me it was something he picked up in the Middle East during WW1. Both diseases seem to be quite rare nowadays.
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Not part of the hunt, but I spotted another photo on't'web, about 1/3 way down this page, "Little Adelaide's best and only boots" - we can't tell if that is "our" Adelaide but thought the pic was worth showing
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/06/30/in-search-of-horace-warner/
According to the book 'Spitalfields Nippers', Adelaide wouldn't let Horace Warner take her photo whilst she was wearing them, so he photographed them separately.
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Ooooh ... my eye was drawn to this thread, because I've just found Springetts / Springates in my tree ... albeit MUCH earlier: in 16th / 17th century Hawkhurst. Nevertheless, that line eventually migrates into the East End of London, too.
If any other Springett descendants posting / reading here have traced their line back to Hawkhurst, do please get in touch so we can compare notes.
I haven't traced my Springett descendants to Hawkhurst yet. Hope the attachment is of interest to you.
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Very odd for many reasons ! How is it known William was homeless and where was he at the time Adelaide and her mother were registered at Hanbury st workhouse in 1901 ? Adelaide could have been a servant at gun st but why give the name of your next of kin as your dead daughter but with a proper address ? Why go from a workhouse in Hanbury st just to a doss house at 31 Dorset st ? Given that Adelaide gave the Gun st address in 1915 when booking into the infirmary and in the 1911 census there were 3 large Jewish families living at that address and now someone else called Boyes as well. What was Adelaide doing there for 8 years plus ?
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What are the pre-requisites for developing Erysipelas? My Grandfather William John Springett, Adelaides brother, died an early death due to Anasarca. My mother told me it was something he picked up in the Middle East during WW1. Both diseases seem to be quite rare nowadays.
Since erysipelas is a bacterial infection, the only real prerequisite is to pick up the relevant bacterium. The bacterium that causes most cases of erysipelas is called "Streptococcus pyogenes"; this is also responsible for cases of scarlet fever which can lead to rheumatic fever. Both types of infection still exist these days but are far less common than they used to be; it's not 100% certain why this should be the case, but better general hygiene standards are at least in part to thank for this. Antibiotics (which of course didn't exist in Adelaide's day) also help to cut strep infections, but it's thought as well that the bacterium may be mutating/evolving in a way that makes it less toxic to humans.
So lack of hygiene would play a part in the incidence of strep infections, but is not a pre-requisite -- erysipelas is still around today and you don't have to live in a filthy house to get it!
I had to look up "anasarca" too; it's not a term with which I was familiar. Having done so, it looks to me as though the term could be interchangeable with "dropsy" - an accumulation of oedema (fluid) throughout the body. This could manifest in various ways - the commonest (still around) is swollen ankles. Fluid can also collect around the lungs. In more severe cases it can collect in other areas eg inside the abdominal cavity. Oedema like this has a large number of possible causes. The only one that comes to mind as the consequence of an infection would be again caused by our new/old friend Streptococcus - scarlet fever, caused by strep, used to not-infrequently lead on either to rheumatic fever or to glomerulonephritis (a type of kidney disease). The latter can obviously cause accumulation of oedema/fluid in the body if the kidneys are damaged. Rheumatic fever can do so by causing damage to the heart valves so the heart can no longer pump efficiently. So it's possible that William picked up a strep infection in ww1 but the family may have assumed that to be the case as it was not uncommon; it might not have true. (Heavy alcohol intake can cause similar problems for example!)
As I mentioned, streptococcus may be changing in a way beneficial to humans as a host, and that probably accounts largely for the dramatic reduction in heart and kidney disease caused by strep.
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What are the pre-requisites for developing Erysipelas? My Grandfather William John Springett, Adelaides brother, died an early death due to Anasarca. My mother told me it was something he picked up in the Middle East during WW1. Both diseases seem to be quite rare nowadays.
Since erysipelas is a bacterial infection, the only real prerequisite is to pick up the relevant bacterium. The bacterium that causes most cases of erysipelas is called "Streptococcus pyogenes"; this is also responsible for cases of scarlet fever which can lead to rheumatic fever. Both types of infection still exist these days but are far less common than they used to be; it's not 100% certain why this should be the case, but better general hygiene standards are at least in part to thank for this. Antibiotics (which of course didn't exist in Adelaide's day) also help to cut strep infections, but it's thought as well that the bacterium may be mutating/evolving in a way that makes it less toxic to humans.
So lack of hygiene would play a part in the incidence of strep infections, but is not a pre-requisite -- erysipelas is still around today and you don't have to live in a filthy house to get it!
I had to look up "anasarca" too; it's not a term with which I was familiar. Having done so, it looks to me as though the term could be interchangeable with "dropsy" - an accumulation of oedema (fluid) throughout the body. This could manifest in various ways - the commonest (still around) is swollen ankles. Fluid can also collect around the lungs. In more severe cases it can collect in other areas eg inside the abdominal cavity. Oedema like this has a large number of possible causes. The only one that comes to mind as the consequence of an infection would be again caused by our new/old friend Streptococcus - scarlet fever, caused by strep, used to not-infrequently lead on either to rheumatic fever or to glomerulonephritis (a type of kidney disease). The latter can obviously cause accumulation of oedema/fluid in the body if the kidneys are damaged. Rheumatic fever can do so by causing damage to the heart valves so the heart can no longer pump efficiently. So it's possible that William picked up a strep infection in ww1 but the family may have assumed that to be the case as it was not uncommon; it might not have true. (Heavy alcohol intake can cause similar problems for example!)
As I mentioned, streptococcus may be changing in a way beneficial to humans as a host, and that probably accounts largely for the dramatic reduction in heart and kidney disease caused by strep.
Many thanks for your detailed reply. I now have an understanding of those terms that I couldn't glean from Googling them. I don't have any pictures of Adelaide but I do have a picture of my Mother aged 18, at her wedding in 1942. Adelaide does not appear in any of her niece's pictures. I think I can see a resemblance between my Mother and her Fathers Sister, Adelaide.
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No, I said when she died intestate she was recorded under both names. That wouldn't be on the death certificate, it was from the bona vacantia list.
So your entire case rests on the name of Adelaide Ann Springett being quoted as a known alias.
I agree that alone as it stands is quite compelling. I wonder why though no proper marriage and no apparent kids from the couple either.
By the way you said as she was no ones relative on this site, no one would be prepared to pay for the death certificate. Well someone has claimed she was their aunt or great aunt. All seemed to fit !!!!
[/quote] ;D ;D ;D
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Little Adelaide seems to have had two DOB, depending where you look. I hope this helps to clarify things a little.
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I suspect that the BV list gets its information from the death cert - informant listed on BV site is London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham Social Services Department
Adelaide left a modest estate but rather more than one would expect, considering her early start in life and her line of work.
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I suspect that the BV list gets its information from the death cert - informant listed on BV site is London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham Social Services Department
No mention of Springett as an alternative name on the Death Cert, so I wonder how the name got linked on the BV list.
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Adelaide died in a care home in Hammersmith and I suspect the staff there would have known her history. Perhaps her bank/savings book or other paperwork would have been in her Springett name. Her 'husband', Frank Harling committed suicide some years earlier.
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Iconicus,what a life full of tragedy and mis-fortune, she must have been one tough girl !! Must have felt blessed though, that she survived into old age what with her mum drinking herself to death and her husband committing suicide ! Do you know what she did for work before she retired ?
I was going to say to add to her misery as a child ,her father seems absent but maybe he wasn't that absent and was there for her as financially as he could.
Love to know how a poor east end girl managed to end up living in West London. Frank must of had a decent enough job at one time to keep them ? But what did she do before Frank ?
And yes your mum does look like Adelaide, they are both photogenic in the same way I think I
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Yes, she certainly had tragedy and misfortune during a long and hard life. I wonder what she did for entertainment in her few hours off, theatre, cinema or just walks in the park. She started working 'in service' and I suspect that's how she continued. It would have given her a roof over her head, a crust and a few pennies. Perhaps she just wanted a simple existence. In 1939 at 46 years old, she took up with Frank Harling, a house painter and they stayed at about half a dozen addresses together. I had a look at some of them on Google Streetview and they look as if they would have been beyond her means. From that I surmise they were 'in service' as a husband and wife team. Hence Adelaide adopting his surname.
I don't think her father would have been very supportive. He rarely crops up anywhere in the records. Looking at the workhouse Infirmary records at Adelaide's mothers death, he is noted as being homeless. I still haven't found a record of his death. He was my Great Grandfather and I still have no idea what he died of, or where he's buried. Most likely he died in the street and was given a paupers burial. The search continues.
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What are the pre-requisites for developing Erysipelas? My Grandfather William John Springett, Adelaides brother, died an early death due to Anasarca. My mother told me it was something he picked up in the Middle East during WW1. Both diseases seem to be quite rare nowadays.
Since erysipelas is a bacterial infection, the only real prerequisite is to pick up the relevant bacterium. The bacterium that causes most cases of erysipelas is called "Streptococcus pyogenes"; this is also responsible for cases of scarlet fever which can lead to rheumatic fever. Both types of infection still exist these days but are far less common than they used to be; it's not 100% certain why this should be the case, but better general hygiene standards are at least in part to thank for this. Antibiotics (which of course didn't exist in Adelaide's day) also help to cut strep infections, but it's thought as well that the bacterium may be mutating/evolving in a way that makes it less toxic to humans.
So lack of hygiene would play a part in the incidence of strep infections, but is not a pre-requisite -- erysipelas is still around today and you don't have to live in a filthy house to get it!
I had to look up "anasarca" too; it's not a term with which I was familiar. Having done so, it looks to me as though the term could be interchangeable with "dropsy" - an accumulation of oedema (fluid) throughout the body. This could manifest in various ways - the commonest (still around) is swollen ankles. Fluid can also collect around the lungs. In more severe cases it can collect in other areas eg inside the abdominal cavity. Oedema like this has a large number of possible causes. The only one that comes to mind as the consequence of an infection would be again caused by our new/old friend Streptococcus - scarlet fever, caused by strep, used to not-infrequently lead on either to rheumatic fever or to glomerulonephritis (a type of kidney disease). The latter can obviously cause accumulation of oedema/fluid in the body if the kidneys are damaged. Rheumatic fever can do so by causing damage to the heart valves so the heart can no longer pump efficiently. So it's possible that William picked up a strep infection in ww1 but the family may have assumed that to be the case as it was not uncommon; it might not have true. (Heavy alcohol intake can cause similar problems for example!)
As I mentioned, streptococcus may be changing in a way beneficial to humans as a host, and that probably accounts largely for the dramatic reduction in heart and kidney disease caused by strep.
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It seems to have caused the heart attack that ended his life. In the Cause of Death box are what appears to be four letters which I suspect may be some form of Latin code. Any idea what they may mean, please? A sad end to a brave man who fought at the Battle of Loos and in Mesopotamia.
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Doesn't it just say no p.m - no post mortem?
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I Agree with groom - it says no p.m. i.e. no post mortem.
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So - "anasarca" ie a build upof fluid - and "myocardial degeneration"; we'd probably these days call this heart failure. I don't think this would have been a heart attack as such.
(though it's a bit odd to have it shown as it is - 1a on the certificate should be caused by 1b, and really I think they've go this the wrong way round!)
Heart failure in a young person like this -- likeliest causes might be disease of the heart valves (eg through rheumatic fever -- although that was so common I'd expect them to put that down on the cert) or cardiomyopathy (weakening of the heart muscle) - which could be caused by alcohol, or runaway high blood pressure (not so likely in a younger person) or be a congenital problem. Sometimes infection can cause a cardiomyopathy (eg flu can) but that tends to come on at or shortly after the time that you're suffering from the infection. There are other possible causes but I think those would be the likeliest in a younger person.
Syphilis can also affect the heart valves and of course it was far from unknown from soldiers to return from foreign postings with sexually transmitted infections. However, again syphilis was very well known and recognised so I'd expect that that to have been mentioned if it were the case.
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Looking at that certificate there are a couple of things. Usually it says how long a person had suffered from the condition that killed them. Not many certificates even mention a PM, so perhaps he died suddenly but the cause was so obvious that they didn't need a PM.
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Not part of the hunt, but I spotted another photo on't'web, about 1/3 way down this page, "Little Adelaide's best and only boots" - we can't tell if that is "our" Adelaide but thought the pic was worth showing
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/06/30/in-search-of-horace-warner/
The boots look like the ones the girl is wearing in the previous photo..
I know she hated those boots but I couldn't resist reuniting her with them.
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Colorized
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Oh wow, what a beautiful picture that makes. I find that putting colour into these old photos really brings out detail, such as the texture of the cloth of her dress and the raggedness of the ends of the sleeves.
I'm very impressed with this touch up .
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The four letters in the cause of death column are under the name of the Doctor
M.R.C.S. = Member of Royal College of Surgeons.
Regards Crowsfeet
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Adelaide Springett & Friends Colorized
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Very odd for many reasons ! How is it known William was homeless and where was he at the time Adelaide and her mother were registered at Hanbury st workhouse in 1901 ? Adelaide could have been a servant at gun st but why give the name of your next of kin as your dead daughter but with a proper address ? Why go from a workhouse in Hanbury st just to a doss house at 31 Dorset st ? Given that Adelaide gave the Gun st address in 1915 when booking into the infirmary and in the 1911 census there were 3 large Jewish families living at that address and now someone else called Boyes as well. What was Adelaide doing there for 8 years plus ?
Have a look at serial 831. It certainly thickens the plot.
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Adelaide Springett & Friends Colorized
Thanks, that's an excellent piece of work. The colours are vibrant and although her clothes are ragged, actually look clean and her hat has a bit of a Salvation Army look to it. Perhaps it's the red ribbon.
In 1905, Adelaides mum is back in the Infirmary her Dad appears to be in prison. Her release date from hospital is changed to coincide with his release date from prison.
Where can I find details of why he was 'banged up' and where? It's starting to read like the 'Child of the Jago' book.
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A very interesting topic.
I have a few things to add
The 1901 photo, Adelaide and her mother were living at Sally army shelter in hanbury st. So she wasn't living at Millers court at the time that was taken.Other than the school admissions cant find anything linking her to that address. But she and her mother Mary ( not Margaret) are listed in that census as living in the shelter.
Cant find her on the 1911 census although theres reference to her checking in at the workhouse infirmary in 1915, stating she was a servant and lived at 53 Gun St.
Unable to search by street address to see if there are similar names to hers living at Gun st in 1911 census.
Found a photo from 1912 taken on the corner of Crispin st and Dorset st. The girl looks remarkably like her and is dressed in what looks like a black servants dress (could even be a tea room uniform) and is with 3 children , one in a pushchair. Unfortunately its impossible to zoom in with any clarity to see if the girl has that pear shaped mark on her cheek. She would have been 19-20 at the time and it fits that she would be a nanny come servant and it is just round the corner from Gun St.
The other girl in the 1901 photo, I'm guessing is her best friend and further guessing that she may be one of the 2 girls listed of that age in the shelter in the 1901 census.
Haven't been able to find any reference of her mother dying at the workhouse in 1907. However there is a reference to Horace Warner( the photographer) saying that he kept in touch with the family until 1906, death is not mentioned.
My question is; is there a way you can search by address on Ancestry or other sites as finding her on the 1911 census in Gun st is the missing link at the moment
I followed this thread with great interest when it was active as my family grew up in that area - what I didn't know at the time is that my paternal grandmother, Sarah Jones, was listed above Mary Springett on the 1901 Census for the Salvation Army Shelter in Whitechapel. Sarah was with her younger step sister Bridget and her mother (my great grandmother) Eliza Jones (also known as Eliza Sullivan or Barrett but that's another story for another time)!
Unfortunately I never met my grandmother as she died before I was born but she did manage to lead a life that wasn't completely poverty stricken! Although she wasn't able to read or write she took over my grandfather's business after he died - selling newspapers outside Liverpool Street station in London.
I purchased the book Spitalfields Nippers by Horace Warner, hoping to see a picture of my grandmother as very few family pictures exist. She may have been in one of the group photographs but there weren't any of her as an individual.
If anyone does come across any pictures that are not featured in the book I'd be interested in seeing them.
Linda
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There's a digital copy of Horace Warners pictures at the Bishopsgate Institute in London. A quick telephone call to them a couple of days before visiting should gain you access to them. I'll be doing that next week. Have a look at the paragraph in the bottom left corner, at the back of the title page in Spitalfields Nippers.
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There's a digital copy of Horace Warners pictures at the Bishopsgate Institute in London. A quick telephone call to them a couple of days before visiting should gain you access to them. I'll be doing that next week. Have a look at the paragraph in the bottom left corner, at the back of the title page in Spitalfields Nippers.
Thank you IONICUS. I must admit I didn't read that page...a case of not reading the small print!
I shall plan a visit in the very near future.
Linda
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There's a digital copy of Horace Warners pictures at the Bishopsgate Institute in London. A quick telephone call to them a couple of days before visiting should gain you access to them. I'll be doing that next week. Have a look at the paragraph in the bottom left corner, at the back of the title page in Spitalfields Nippers.
Sorry for messaging many years later but I was wondering if you have any links to the Springetts living in Sidcup?
My daughter is a Springett and would love to know.
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Hi,
My Springett research takes me to Marylebone and Spitalfields. I haven't come across any in Sidcup.
What dates are you looking at?
John
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This is bizarre. I stumbled across this post on Reddit.
My mum’s side of the family are Springetts. I was born in Sidcup and they lived in North Cray, Sidcup.
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I'm posting this newspaper article here as I've not seen any mention of it. It's interesting to have a first-hand account of some of the events discussed on this forum. (I've just discovered that I'm distantly and indirectly related to Adelaide.)
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Thanks for showing this cutting.
Could you please show it in it's entirety as it looks as if there's part of it cropped out and do you have a date for it?
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Just picking up on a discrepancy noted several pages (and about 6 years back) between the names Margaret and Mary.
If Margaret was known as "Marge" (as she may well have been) and this was written in a poor hand, it could easily have been mis-transcribed as Mary. So maybe not as much of a discrepancy as it first appears.
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Thanks for showing this cutting.
Could you please show it in it's entirety as it looks as if there's part of it cropped out and do you have a date for it?
I don't have a subscription to findmypast or British Newspaper Archive, however I can see this article is from:
18 October 1907 - East End News and London Shipping Chronicle
From the snippets available:
" Mr. Baxter held an inquest at the Whitechapel Infirmary on Tuesday with reference to the death of Margaret Springett, aged 47 years, the wife of a hawker, who died from chronic alcoholism. A daughter of the deceased said they had been living at 31 Dorset street, which was called the "haunted house." The Coroner: Why? Witness: I don't know A juror: Perhaps a murder was committed there, Mr. Coroner. The Coroner: I should not be surprised to hear so. Witness added that they were turned out three weeks ago. Witness went to Gun street, a sister went to Flower and Dean street, and her father went to somewhere in Brick lane. Witness ' added that on Wednesday morning she found her mother surrounded by a crowd outside the 1 " haunted house. - She was removed to the Infirmary. William John Springett, the: husband, said they couldn't pay the rent, and were turned out of the "haunted house." He didn't know where his wife had lived since. She used to drink, and couldn't eat, but he didn't know where she got the money from to buy the drink. At times she seemed to be a bit " looney." After hearing further evidence, the Coroner remarked that it appeared to be " another illustration of life in Spitalfields," and a verdict of death from natural causes was returned "
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Susannah being the oldest child was probably the witness and went to Gun street, and Adelaide, the sister, going to Flower and Dean Street.
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31 Dorset Street mentioned here in connection with Jack the Ripper murders
https://www.casebook.org/forum1998/messages/1/4460b14b.html?1036885943
maybe that is connected to how it became known as the haunted house
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What a fascinating thread, having just quickly read through all 17 pages!. Yes, Jack the Ripper was mentioned earlier in the thread, so I think that you are right in guessing why it was called the haunted house.
Thank you Annie for posting those amazing Horace Warner photos in the first instance. Haunting, all of them.
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Thanks for showing this cutting.
Could you please show it in it's entirety as it looks as if there's part of it cropped out and do you have a date for it?
It’s from the ‘East End News and London Shipping Chronicle’ 18 October 1907. I was careful to include the date header in my screen grab (and the whole article) so I’m not sure if it’s been cropped when it uploaded to Rootschat. Trying again.
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Susan Eliza Springett died in 1891, age three, so would not have featured in the article. There was only William John and Adelaide alive in 1907.
Adelaide would have been around 14 years old at the time of her mothers death. In June 1915 she lived at 53 Gun St and was 22 years old. I suspect she could she have been 'in service' at that age and had to remain there for 8 years to keep a roof over her head.
Looks like she started life as a 'skivvie'. A word seldom heard nowadays but the reality of life in those far off days was hard.
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From The Daily Telegraph
London, Greater London, England · Wednesday, February 18, 1987. One year after her death, public notice of unclaimed assets from her estate.
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Thank you. The 1939 census shows Adelaide Springett and her partner Frank Harling as Married, this shows her as a spinster.
It's from the Bona Vacantia list and has been dealt with. The details appear on an earlier post.
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Adelaide, (14yrs old) was the witness at the coroners inquest. She was the only daughter alive at that time, her 3 year old sister Susan Eliza died of Bronchial Pneumonia in the London Hospital, Whitechapel, on the 19 Jun 1891. Her twin sisters Margaret and Helen both died shortly after premature birth in the Workhouse Infirmary, Raines St, on the 15 May 1891.
Adelaide was living in Gun St in 1915.
William John Springett Jr, (my grandfather) was her only sibling and he lived in doss houses at the time and there were plenty in Fashion St.
Her mother Margaret died in the Whitechapel Infirmary on the 11 Oct 1907, cause of death 'Sudden - Chronic Alchoholism Natural - Postmortem'. What a sad end to a troubled life.
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This thread is amazing. I never thought, when I saw that photo and posted about it, that the thread would still be going, 18 pages and several years later!
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Thank You - I'm so very glad you did. You certainly started something.
If I find any further details of her life, I'll continue to add them to the thread.
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For the past few months, with the kind permission of Adelaide's ancestor, I have been researching and writing her life story. It's a difficult read, but we can't airbrush out the truth. Her life was one of constant struggle, but above all else her courage and strength to hold on and survive shines through above everything else. I hope that you enjoy the story and there's not too many tears along the way.
https://chiddicksfamilytree.com/2024/02/15/adelaide-springett/
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I must offer Paul my heartfelt thanks for taking up Adelaide's story and telling it in such a way as to do justice to her memory. Although I had much of the material, I did not have the expertise to turn those details into a readable narrative. Then along came Paul with the talent and understanding to weave those details into a fascinating story. And what an excellent job he's done.
Thanks again Paul.
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I totally agree. A really heart wrenching story. Well done Paul
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I must offer Paul my heartfelt thanks for taking up Adelaide's story and telling it in such a way as to do justice to her memory. Although I had much of the material, I did not have the expertise to turn those details into a readable narrative. Then along came Paul with the talent and understanding to weave those details into a fascinating story. And what an excellent job he's done.
Thanks again Paul.
Thanks so much for allowing me to do this research. It was both a privilege and pleasure to be able to tell Adelaide’s story. She will forever have a place in my heart.
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I totally agree. A really heart wrenching story. Well done Paul
Thanks Lizzie much appreciated
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I've said it before, but I had absolutely no idea when I started this thread that it would lead to all this!
Adelaide's picture touched my heart and it's so good to know the rest of her story, even if it's not all rosy (I guess we never thought it would be).
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I've said it before, but I had absolutely no idea when I started this thread that it would lead to all this!
Adelaide's picture touched my heart and it's so good to know the rest of her story, even if it's not all rosy (I guess we never thought it would be).
A story that is mirrored in many ways by so many Victorian children, but at least her memory will live on.