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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: LizzieW on Wednesday 22 October 14 15:01 BST (UK)
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I was listening to the Jeremy Vine Show today - which I rarely do - and there was a cab driver on who said he'd been born in Bethnal Green and that he was a Cockney.
Now my mysterious g.grandfather was apparently born in Bethnal Green, so I guess he was a Cockney too, but more interesting was hearing the cabbie speak. Does anyone know if the accent from the Bethnal Green area of London has changed over the years, or would my g.grandfather born about 1857 (died 1936 in Hull) have had a similar accent?
I've never thought of the accents of my ancestors until hearing this programme, has anyone else?
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I find this a fascinating topic too.
The British Library maintains a collection of audio recordings for posterity, and in fact when they had an exhibition about the English language a couple of years ago they invited everyone who attended (or visited the website) to contribute an audio recording of their speaking voice using a sample text. They took details of birthdate, where you lived etc to put the recordings in context.
Here are some of the older recordings:
http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects
If you look under Middlesex- Hackney the audio file may be of interest, though the person won't have been born as early as your g-grandfather (just checked - they have his birthdate as 1888).
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Thank you for that link. Interestingly the Hackney man sounded rather posher than the cabbie on the radio today. I wonder if today's cockneys exaggerate their accent somewhat.
I also listened to the Kingsley, Cheshire accent which is just as I remembered the normal people in Cheshire speaking and also the Cartmel, Lancashire accent to see if it was any different to the Manchester, Lancashire accent. It wasn't really, it was more the dialect that has changed than anything else.
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Not just accents - I'd love to know which of my ancestors around the Shropshire/Wales borderlands were Welsh speakers and which were English speakers.
Mike
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I have to say, no I have never thought about their accents, however I suppose you would also take into consideration their 'class' and education as well which would have then been more important then, than now.
Although born/brought up in Leicestershire I have never had a Leicestershire accent, certainly one or two words I say are very 'Leicester' but only Leicester people would pick up on those
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As I don't know anything about my g.grandfather, apart from what is on the 1891-1911 census (and my gran and her siblings' birth certs), I don't know his class. His mother's name was supposed to be Da Costa, but I can't find any birth certificate for a George William Wright with that name on - maybe his birth wasn't registered. My theory is that he was illegitimate and taken in by another family. I have various ideas, one of which would probably mean he had a well spoken accent, but then as he moved to Hull as a fisherman that doesn't make much sense. As he lived in Hull from at least 1884 until his death in 1936, it's possible he picked up a Hull accent.
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Just listened to the "Marshside, Lancashire" snippet online - almost impenetrable to understand for me, even though it's only 50 years back. I think if I ever met up with those long-lost ancestors of far earlier days, from that area via a time machine, of course, I'd either not be able to make them understand the questions I'd love to know the answers for - or, even worse, not be able to understand their answers! Oh dear, what a horrid thought. Fascinating site.
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Here are some of the older recordings:
http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects
Just listening now to Leicestershire accents, it took me 25% of the time to 'tune in' before I could understand anything at all, once I was 'tuned in' I can understand it but the accents sound very 'broad' to my ears
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My maternal grandparents were born and grew up in the Poplar area and so were technically cockneys (born within the sound of bow bells) and lived there until they got married, but neither I would say had a cockney accent of any form. My grandfather's siblings remained in the area for most of their lives and definitely had more of a pronounced accent but I wouldn't say it was what I'd call cockney. Neither family was particularly well off so it doesn't follow that if they were born in the East End, they sounded like a stereo typical cockney. My other grandmother grew up in Shoreditch and she didn't have a pronounced accent either. In fact my cousins who grew up near Tunbridge Wells both have a worse accent that any of my grandparents. ;D
Mind you if anyone suggested to my maternal grandmother she was a cockney, she used to get very upset about it ... but then she was a bit of a snob a times.
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Not just accents - I'd love to know which of my ancestors around the Shropshire/Wales borderlands were Welsh speakers and which were English speakers.
Mike
I'm sure on one of the censuses for Wales it says whether they spoke English or Welsh - only one of my welsh ancesters actually spoke the welsh language apparently. But if u meant spoke with the welsh accent then ignore my post lol.
I know how my Black Country lot spoke for sure...ar con still ea folk spake lioke that round eya x
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I've often wondered how my ancestors sounded. Interesting topic to wonder on isn't it?
- Because they came from all over England and some from Dumfriesshire, I think maybe they must have lost much of their home accents fairly fast.
Interesting link there.
Wiggy
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Even if we still spoke in the same accent I suspect we would find many words would have dropped out of common usage over the generations. I know that although I speak in our local dialect, my mother uses many more 'old-fashioned' words than I do, and in turn, my sons still speak in our local dialect but don't know many of the words I and my generation use. Of course, every accent is becoming blurred by travel and instant communication.
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I think the man from Hackney on the link probably had the true Cockney accent and the accent we hear today has been made deliberately stronger - or is that thicker - over the years. When you hear some of the youngsters from around London speaking today, it's almost as though they just don't want to be heard speaking properly.
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It took me years before it dawned on me that my smart looking 2xgt grandfather would have had a thick Geordie accent. I can't imagine it!
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I wonder what it was like in the US where there were mixed immigrant communities with a wide range of languages and accents. How did their children boil it all down to standard American English?
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Or the fact that England was a magnet for traders from all over the world, and for people from troubled lands needing safer places to live than where they were from
would all add to the mix, sort of like a fruit salad of sounds combining with the longer resident population.
Great topic.
Crowsfeet
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I've a French Huguenot ancestor who married a local lass from Bethnal Green in the 1740s, I wonder how much fun they had understanding each other?! ;D ;D Similarly I've a Gateshead ancestor who married in the East End a local lad from Shadwell, I bet that was an interesting mix for the children. ;)
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It's something I often wonder about. Especially being in Australia with such a mix of heritage - often think about how long accents were retained, how much was passed on to new generations, the melting pot of accents which came to be how I sound now. (I'm sure everyone knows the joke about how the Australian accent came to be - having to talk with closed teeth to keep the flies out ...)
Thank you avm228 for that link - fascinating!
30 years ago I obtained my gg grandfather's marriage certificate (for my mother who was interested in family history): says he was born in Newcastle upon Tyne so always assumed he had a thick Geordie accent. Wasn't until I started seriously looking into family history that I found out his parents weren't from there and didn't stay long - so he probably didn't sound like that at all. :)
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Not having much English background, I thought I would search for some Irish/Scottish/Australian equivalents... and found an amazing site where you can find dialects and accents from anywhere! Try it - amazing - http://www.dialectsarchive.com/
Gives a world map - and you just zoom in on wherever you would like to hear the relevant accent. Could spend hours doing this!
Happy listening!
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Sorry, - should have been more specific... the accents given are of course, speaking a set English bit of prose... so e.g. "Italy" - Italian accent from various parts, but speaking English....
Interesting.
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Sorry to have taken over this post - just a bit more explanation of the website - it gives recordings of many different people - with biographical details, - and shows not just the regional accents, but the influences of combined regional experiences - e.g. - someone who is from Co. Antrim, but grew up in London, or studied in USA or whatever.... Fascinating stuff.
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Thank you for your link maggbill, I've just clicked on one at random which turned out to be Aberdeen. Although I haven't any ancestors from there, my paternal grandfather was living and working in Aberdeen when he was killed in a motorcycle accident. I think the accent is quite easy to understand and I don't expect it's changed much since he was there in the 1920s. Of course that's nearly 100 years ago, but being born in 1941 I always relate years to where I fit into the scheme of things.
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Hi LizzieW
Well, accents certainly can vary - and often people will really adjust their speech according to circumstances, and who they are speaking to. I left Scotland in 1962 - but still think I have a Glaswegian accent, and when I get together with my siblings, we are just sooooo Glaswegian, but I bet you a real "Glasgow" person would think my accent has become "Australianised". My OH is from Aberdeen, but does not have a strong Aberdonian accent, however when I hear some of his fellow Aberdonians - especially the older ones - I struggle to understand them, especially when they use the actual "dialect" rather than just the accent.
Fascinating subject - Another field of knowledge I have grown in since I got interested in "Family history"!
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I agree that the linguistic experience of migrants is really interesting.
When I was at an early stage in my family history "journey" there was a gg-grandmother Annie whose birth I could not trace. The only living person who knew and remembered Annie was my great-aunt. She was adamant that Annie must have grown up in Scotland because she remembered her having a strong Scottish accent all her life.
After a frustrating time I eventually found that Annie had been born in Nebraska in 1869. Her Scottish parents had just settled in the US and so far as I know Annie never set foot in Scotland. Her Scottish accent must have come entirely from her parents.
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I just had a listen to the Wandsworth accent as my family lived there for generations. It really reminded me of my mothers`aunt! My mum and my nan did not have the same accent theirs was much softer.
I did smile about getting attuned to the accent. I live in Ireland but am from Sussex and when we visit my sister there it takes me a while to get used to the accent even though I grew up with it!
I do find also that my Dubliner husband also uses different sentence constructions from me at times. Saying something in a way that I would never have said it so for those of you with Irish ancestors that would be something to consider. I think the classic example would be amn`t I for am I not. Then also to consider would be the use of vocabulary I`ve lived in Ireland for nearly 20 years and still use English terms for some things.
Sarah
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I'm actually pretty sure that my gggg uncle, railway entrepreneur John Skelsey spoke with a Warwickshire accent because the 1851 Yorkshire enumerator heard and listed his birth as "Royton, Warwickshire" when he was actually born Ryton-on-Dunsmore.
And, yes, I have ancestors who I know spoke Welsh but this ceased to be recorded when they moved to Oswestry, Shropshire - an area where Welsh was then much spoken, I believe. I read an article some years ago about children being taught Welsh at one of the primary schools thereabouts.
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I'm actually pretty sure that my gggg uncle, railway entrepreneur John Skelsey spoke with a Warwickshire accent because the 1851 Yorkshire enumerator heard and listed his birth as "Royton, Warwickshire" when he was actually born Ryton-on-Dunsmore.
And, yes, I have ancestors who I know spoke Welsh but this ceased to be recorded when they moved to Oswestry, Shropshire - an area where Welsh was then much spoken, I believe. I read an article some years ago about children being taught Welsh at one of the primary schools thereabouts.
Highly likely being that Ryton-on-Dunsmore is Rugby in Warwickshire
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I was lucky enough to find a description of a g/g/g/uncle's accent in a book - "a regular cockney, desperate regarding his H's"(He was born Islington,1831)
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I am researching a Hall family in Northumberland.
When checking the various censuses,I realised that some of them have been enumerated as Harle.
It wasn´t until I thought about the accent that I realised why.
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I'm actually pretty sure that my gggg uncle, railway entrepreneur John Skelsey spoke with a Warwickshire accent because the 1851 Yorkshire enumerator heard and listed his birth as "Royton, Warwickshire" when he was actually born Ryton-on-Dunsmore.
And, yes, I have ancestors who I know spoke Welsh but this ceased to be recorded when they moved to Oswestry, Shropshire - an area where Welsh was then much spoken, I believe. I read an article some years ago about children being taught Welsh at one of the primary schools thereabouts.
Highly likely being that Ryton-on-Dunsmore is Rugby in Warwickshire
Yes of course, my point was that the Yorkshire enumerator must have heard it as "Royton" which is how it would sound to him if spoken with a Warwickshire accent. My relative had left Warks decades earlier!
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I think the man from Hackney on the link probably had the true Cockney accent and the accent we hear today has been made deliberately stronger - or is that thicker - over the years. When you hear some of the youngsters from around London speaking today, it's almost as though they just don't want to be heard speaking properly.
Just to say that I was brought up in Leytonstone, and my father and mother were both Londoners, my father from Walthamstow born 1914 and my mother from Old Ford which is Bethnal Green. My grandparents were all East Londoners too, and were born in the late 1870's/1880's, so I'm in a position to comment as I heard the accent throughout my childhood.
I can still put on my East London accent which I used at school. The man on the tape has a generally quite refined accent, and real Cockney or East London is a much stronger language and I don't believe has strengthened over the years except by Estuary English.
Key characteristics are the glottal stop, the dropping of 'aitches - and using singular verbs in plural circumstances, such as 'we was'.\
Lovely to hear him speak, though.
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Yes of course, my point was that the Yorkshire enumerator must have heard it as "Royton" which is how it would sound to him if spoken with a Warwickshire accent. My relative had left Warks decades earlier!
One of my ancestors was born in Challow, Berkshire. On one census it is recorded as "Charla" - like your ancestor when he moved to a different county and the local enumerator would not have been likely to know the correct spelling.
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Something like that must have happened to my ancestor from Old Cleeve, Somerset - recorded as 'Oak Leaf.'
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I'm actually pretty sure that my gggg uncle, railway entrepreneur John Skelsey spoke with a Warwickshire accent because the 1851 Yorkshire enumerator heard and listed his birth as "Royton, Warwickshire" when he was actually born Ryton-on-Dunsmore.
I'd say there is no such thing as a "Warwickshire" accent, it varies in different parts of the county. Lets not forget that large parts of Birmingham were historically parts of Warwickshire, but you don't find the Brummie accent prevalent across the whole county. I've often found people who grew up around Stratford upon Avon and further south sounded different to those in Leamington Spa. And no Leamington Spa despite being "Royal" cannot be called posh ... believe me. ;D I spent a lot of my childhood in Leamington Spa, but with both parents been London born and bred, I occasionally used phrases that people had never heard and which I had obviously picked up from either of my parents. Neither of my parents has a strong accent, neither did two of my grandparents who grew up in Poplar but whom moved to the Midlands at the same time as we did.
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I think the man from Hackney on the link probably had the true Cockney accent and the accent we hear today has been made deliberately stronger - or is that thicker - over the years. When you hear some of the youngsters from around London speaking today, it's almost as though they just don't want to be heard speaking properly.
Just to say that I was brought up in Leytonstone, and my father and mother were both Londoners, my father from Walthamstow born 1914 and my mother from Old Ford which is Bethnal Green. My grandparents were all East Londoners too, and were born in the late 1870's/1880's, so I'm in a position to comment as I heard the accent throughout my childhood.
I can still put on my East London accent which I used at school. The man on the tape has a generally quite refined accent, and real Cockney or East London is a much stronger language and I don't believe has strengthened over the years except by Estuary English.
Key characteristics are the glottal stop, the dropping of 'aitches - and using singular verbs in plural circumstances, such as 'we was'.\
Lovely to hear him speak, though.
Both my grandparents(b 1869) were East Enders too - grandfather(who died before I was born) from Hackney & gran from nearby Dalston. There were subtle differences between the accent of my father, b 1907 Kentish Town, and his mother, who sounded a lot like Dot Cotton from EastEnders.
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This is a valuable German resource that came to light recently. Includes British POWs from the Great War:
http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Berliner-Lautarchiv-British-and-Commonwealth-recordings
Imber
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:) I spent ages searching for Arle's in Northumberland after talking to old relations....Turns out their Northumbrian accents had turned the real name of EARL into Arle!
All my relations on Dads side had/have Scottish accents, Mothers geat grandparents came from Kent and Hampshire then moved up to Northumberland for work and their descendents are now Geordies, and my OH is an Australian, so a bit of a mixture! ;D
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Thanks Imber for the German link to the POW recordings.. What fascinating stuff!!! amazing to hear these 100 year old recordings of Glasgow/Aberdeen individuals and to know a bit of their story!!
cheers
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Not just accents - I'd love to know which of my ancestors around the Shropshire/Wales borderlands were Welsh speakers and which were English speakers.
Mike
The Welsh census indicates which language people spoke - a friend I was doing some research for was fascinated to find out that her grandmother was a Welsh speaker.
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This fascinates me too. I was intrigued to be told that my Northern Irish great grandfather's first language was Irish Gaelic. I have a family called Brandish, from Salford, but who I've traced back to near a village called Brundish in Suffolk. Did a Manchester clergyman or enumerator hear a Suffolk "u" as a northern "a"? Seems feasible - when, with my Manchester accent, I worked in London in the 1970s, I soon learned that I had to spell out names with an "a" in them, or they would often be written down as "u" by the southerner on the other end of the phone! And my Gloucestershire great x 4 grandfather went to Manchester from Berkeley in Gloucestershire. His birthplace on one of the censuses is given as "Birkley", so obviously he pronounced it as spelled.
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would the accent a person had have made a difference to how their name was written down on a census for example. I have an ancestor named Tobit who eventually became Talbot! Took an age (and of course the help of rootschatters to track her down.
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Usually accent made no difference at all to the census enumeration - it was not carried out by interview. The enumerator dropped off household schedules for completion and then collected and transcribed them into a summary book.
Sometimes he'd have had to ask questions, however, if the form had not been properly or legibly completed due to illiteracy or other reasons.
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One name I am research is Eltham, I have several instances where it has been written Heltham, presumably they didn't want it to sound like they were dropping their aitches.
And similarly with another of my surname - (H)annetts
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Usually accent made no difference at all to the census enumeration - it was not carried out by interview. The enumerator dropped off household schedules for completion and then collected and transcribed them into a summary book.
Sometimes he'd have had to ask questions, however, if the form had not been properly or legibly completed due to illiteracy or other reasons.
Yes but many people were illiterate, so the enumerator would have filled in the form for them. In theory, he ought to have understood the accent and probably did, but the fact he could write doesn't mean he would know how to spell all the different names.
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Another one from my family - there's the rather odd name Saycell. I wondered, and someone else later confirmed, that this was originally Cecil. Illiterate people were presumably completely reliant on enumerators, clergymen and other officials to write their names down correctly, and given that local accents were much stronger and diverse than now, and said officials came from a different class and probably often locality, it's not surprising that spellings and even the actual name often got changed.
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Looking through a parish register for Saffron Walden, Essex - marriages early 1700s, it was interesting to see the spellings of some place names. Burnt Pelham instead of Brent Pelham and Oyle of Ely instead of Isle. Presumably written by a clerk who did not know the places and was relying on the pronunciation of the inhabitants of the places