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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Benn2509 on Sunday 19 October 14 13:41 BST (UK)

Title: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Benn2509 on Sunday 19 October 14 13:41 BST (UK)
Hello to all.
It's been some time since I was last here, but due to recent events I feel I need to get back into this.
Anyway, I'm trying to find the death certificate of my 2 x great grandfather, John Johnson. So far I have bought 3, all of which are incorrect! Although the name, age & locations all match. I have spent some time going through the bmd lists, and I think I have narrowed it down to 3 matching people. But before I carry on spending I'm wondering if there's a way of narrowing it down further, perhaps by using electoral registers to find the year he is no longer listed??
I have his address in the 1911 census, and I know he is deceased by 1936 (his son's wedding), and I have the address of his widow in 1948. Is there a way of checking the electoral roll from 1911 onwards until he is no longer listed, hopefully giving me the year of his death.
I would need to travel to Manchester library, so I want to be sure it can be done before making the journey.
Unless the electoral rolls for manchester are available online??
I hope someone can help,
Many thanks,

Benn.
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: heatherjulie on Sunday 19 October 14 13:45 BST (UK)
Hi Benn
You say you have his address in 1911, which part of Manchester is it?
Which area was his  son living in in 1936?
Which area was his widow in in 1948?

What year was he born?

Heather
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Benn2509 on Sunday 19 October 14 20:30 BST (UK)
Hi Heather, Thanks for your reply.
I think the family were based in the Bradford/Beswick areas.
In 1911 the address is 16 Park Place, Bradford, Manchester. (Prestwich reg.district)
In 1936, his son is living at 18 Copestick Street, Ancoats,
and in 1948, His widow (Isabella Johnson) dies at the same address, 18 Copestick street, Ancoats.

John Johnson was born approximately 1863, in Bradford, Manchester. (According to census). This is my next challenge - to find his birth!
His occupations are listed as mill stoker, miller fireman, Boiler Fireman & General Labourer on the various census returns & certificates I have.
I hope this extra info can be of help.

Many thanks,

Benn.
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Sunday 19 October 14 20:54 BST (UK)
Hi Benn,
You may have already checked this out but if you know where his widow was buried, maybe she was laid to rest with him.  Bonnie
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Benn2509 on Sunday 19 October 14 21:02 BST (UK)
Hi Bonnie,
Yes I have looked at that, and it appears she is buried in a grave belonging to her daughters' husbands' family. No sign of John Johnson unfortunately.
Thanks for your reply.  :)

Benn.
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: heywood on Sunday 19 October 14 21:04 BST (UK)
Hello Benn,
I was just going to post with the same suggestion re burial.

Do you have his marriage? Did he marry Isabella Ackerley?
It is on Lancashire opc.  http://www.lan-opc.org.uk
St Anne's Ashton Under Lyne October 1881
His address is Burlington Street - where the church is and his father is also shown as John Johnson
I can't see him there though!
Heywood
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: BonnieDownUnder on Sunday 19 October 14 21:37 BST (UK)
See that Isabella Ackerley's mother Catherine living with family C1891 and C1901.

There is a death FreeBDM
ACKERLEY, Catherine
Q4/1901 Prestwick 8d/238
age shown as 72 but should be 82.

Just a thought, John Johnson may have been buried with his mother in law?
Bonnie
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: miw on Sunday 19 October 14 22:38 BST (UK)
Hi, might be worth talking to the Registry Office for the area and ask them to search for the death, you can give them more details to check against than the GRO. Although even with GRO you can now ask them to check certain details for no extra cost, just say that you don't know the reference numbers on the order a certificate form and you get taken to a different screen but they only search 2 years (at least it's 2 years for births) and if they don't find anything you get a refund but no details of which details couldn't be matched.
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Benn2509 on Monday 20 October 14 18:35 BST (UK)
Thanks for all the replies.  :)
I do have his marriage certificate, and yes it was Isabella Ackerley he married. I too searched the address and found no sign of them, I'm guessing a false address was given....or maybe a mispelling leading to the incorrect address being written down. I also can't find them in 1881 census.
I did see the death of Catherine Ackerley, I haven't yet ordered her death certificate, I didn't actually think of him being buried with her, something I will look into.
Finally, I think speaking to the registry office is probably my best way forward, I was hoping to find another way first, but will go down that route.
Thank you all for the replies. Still open to more suggestions should anyone have an idea.
Cheers,

Benn
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: heywood on Monday 20 October 14 20:42 BST (UK)
Hello again,
He may have had a temporary address in Burlington Street for the marriage.
The transcript of the marriage register shows a note:
"Cum dispensatione  quoad Bannorum 2+3 proclamationen"
which I assume means that there was a dispensation from having the banns read. :-\

What was his occupation on his marriage certificate - was there one for his father also?

Heywood
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Marj on Tuesday 21 October 14 16:18 BST (UK)
Hi
Could this be a possibility, worth keeping on file.

1871 census index Ancoats district.

John Johnson 32 b. Eccles
Ann 33 b. Ireland.
Wm  11
JOHN 8
Ellen  5
Thomas 3
Mary Ann 1

Children all b. Manchester. (Ancoats  lancsbmd mmn Nolan)

1881 census RG11/3987/26
Jno Johnson widow 44 Iron Labourer. b.Patricroft
Ellen 15, Thomas 13, Mary Ann 11, Elizabeth 8.

1881 Census RG11/3984/38/7
John Johnson 18, Lodger  Jobber (Cotton Mill)
Lodging with Prestage family.

Marriage 1858 for John Johnson & Ann Nolan,
Manchester Reg Office, or Register attended.

Hope it helps

Marj
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Benn2509 on Friday 24 October 14 18:05 BST (UK)
Hi Marj, Many thanks for the reply. I had seen the 1881 return with John lodging with the Prestage family, I have it on file but not sure about it, I just wish I could verify it in some way! I hadn't seen the 1871 census, so thanks for that, I will definitely keep that on file, his father being an iron labourer looks about right, most of the family worked in Bradford Iron works. A great help - thanks again.
Heywood, Thanks for your reply, Why would there have been a special dispensation from having the Banns read? Seems a strange one to me. His occupation on his marriage cert was 'overlooker', and his father 'General Labourer'.
Thanks again for your interest & help.

Benn  :)
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: heywood on Friday 24 October 14 19:20 BST (UK)
I don't know about the dispensation - it looks as though it is from having 2nd and 3rd banns doesn't it. It wouldn't then be a dispensation because one party was not Catholic.
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Joney on Saturday 25 October 14 21:13 BST (UK)
A dispensation means that some  element of church law is relaxed for the benefit of the parties involved.
A quick trawl indicates dispensation from banns might be given if either party is in danger of  death,  has to  leave the area very soon,  or if Lent is about to start (as marriage was not permitted in Lent, so a lengthy delay would be involved). Any possibility that a baby was on the way ? That might be another reason for not wanting to wait. Whatever the reason, the priest is sympathetic. I wonder if a dying parent might be another reason. He/she wants to know his offspring is married, so......
Joney
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: heywood on Saturday 25 October 14 21:57 BST (UK)
As I said, the dispensation seems to be from the 2nd and 3rd banns.
That would only be a matter of weeks before the marriage. It wasn't Lent so one of the other reasons perhaps?
Title: Re: Help needed .... Ways to find the correct person.
Post by: Joney on Monday 27 October 14 20:16 GMT (UK)
Yes, I find this quite intriguing. Makes you wonder what's the story behind it.  I've never come across this sort of dispensation before. I wonder how commonly it was given in this country.  I came across a forum reply that said it was much more common in some countries than others.
Joney