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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Rahnee1 on Thursday 16 October 14 00:05 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me identify this uniform and the medals he is wearing?
This is my husbands great grandfather, Charles Sherlock born approx. 1877. He is a bit of a mystery and a lot of the information we have seems to be not ringing true. He was supposed to be born in North Shields but we can't find any record of this and I do know he was married in Melbourne in 1904.
Thanks
Suzanne
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There’s a Chas SHERLOCK marrying Mary Ellen WHARLTON or WHORLTON in 1904, registered Victoria, Australia. Is this your same chap? If so, do you have that mc? I ask this as the mcs for Victoria are very very informative, and include details about the birth places for the bride and the groom, any previous marriages (including children of those marriages), and many other family history info. (Vic BDM #975R)
When did the chap in the photo die? Do you have the original of the photo? If so, what is written on the reverse side?
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/defence/service-records/army-wwi.aspx Have you looked for his WWI service records? Some of the AIF files have many pages of info, including correspondence with family members.
Cheers, JM
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Sir John MONASH is the chap in the linked photo here :
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/album/ItemViewer.aspx?itemid=977050&suppress=N&imgindex=1
Cheers, JM
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I am adding this link to help advance our OPs quest.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=702022.0
It was not (and is not) my intention to claim to identify Sir John Monash as the person in the OPs photo. I linked the State Library of New South Wales photo of Sir John simply to allow everyone following the thread to notice the similar uniforms.
Cheers, JM
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Légion d'honneur worn on the necktie indicates a Commandeur.
http://www.gwpda.org/medals/frenmedl/france.html
Cheers, JM
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Well, the person in Rahnee's photo appears to be a General Officer (Staff Tabs and General Staff hat badge) with Medals : 1914/15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal with MID Oak Leaf, Volunteer Decoration, and a slightly obscured medal that looks as if it could be the Croix de Guerre. Around his neck is the insignia of a KCB and centrally beside the row of medals is a seven pointed "star", the insignia of the KCMG.
All of this fits with it being Sir John Monash, unless there is another WWI General of similar appearance and awards.
Perhaps family memories were confused ??
Maec
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01cjp/
Different ears, perhaps even different coloured eyes.
Cheers, JM
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Agreed, JM, facial features don't fit.
As it is unlikely to be someone "dressing up" we need another General :) There were an awful lot of them by the time you include all the "Dominions". Pity we can't read his actual rank !
Cheers,
Maec
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The London Gazette would be the place that lists all honours and awards.
But, I did a search on Charles Sherlock, and got no results?! :-\
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Good evening,
No British General by the name of Sherlock listed for WW1 as far as I can see. Have found the following possibles.
Maj Gen Sir George Kenneth Scott-Moncrieff KCB KCMG
Lt Gen Sir Thomas D'Oyly Snow KCB KCMG
Lt Gen Sir Frederick William Stopford KCB KCMG KCVO (the last could have been after photo)
Gen Sir Cameron Deane Shute KCB KCMG
Gen Sir Horace Lockwood Smith-Dorien GCB KCMG
Gen Sir Reginald Byng Stephens KCB CMG ( Knights and Companions wear same badge when around neck)
John915
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Well, the person in Rahnee's photo appears to be a General Officer (Staff Tabs and General Staff hat badge) with Medals : 1914/15 Star, British War Medal, and Victory Medal with MID Oak Leaf, Volunteer Decoration, and a slightly obscured medal that looks as if it could be the Croix de Guerre. Around his neck is the insignia of a KCB and centrally beside the row of medals is a seven pointed "star", the insignia of the KCMG.
All of this fits with it being Sir John Monash, unless there is another WWI General of similar appearance and awards.
Perhaps family memories were confused ??
Maec
Based on this information and that fact that his birth isn't checking out either, I'm really starting to doubt the information we have on him. Several family members have this photo along with the photo of his wife, and all believe it to be him. But in all honesty, if he was such a decorated General, there would be some record of him, and there is not.
It is definitely not a picture of Sir John Monash. I've also found images of four of those listed above, and can confirm that they are not the same as the photo we have.
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Back again,
He would appear to have only 2 emblems on each shoulder but is the top one a star or a crown. By it's prominence I would say a star which would make him a Maj Gen but could have been promoted further after photo so we can't discount any others of higher rank.
The crown would be flatter than the star. A general would have 3 emblems on each shoulder. Field Marshal would only have 2 but the cap badge would have crossed batons.
Brigadier and below only have a single row of leaves on the peak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia
John915
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Charles SHERLOCK is not listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_recipients_of_the_L%C3%A9gion_d'Honneur#Australia
May I please note that there is no officer insignia on the sleeve, (should there be ?) and may I also note that the officer’s cap seems to be a tad small. On parade it may well be so small as to blow off his head. Surely the caps were individually fitted, and made so that the officers would not need to be distracted by their caps being caught in the wind when on parade. So I am wondering if this is a 'staged' photo, likely of Charles Sherlock, but perhaps taken without the knowledge of the General whose regalia and uniform has been carefully cleaned/polished/pressed etc. What occupation for Charles Sherlock's wife ..... perhaps if this is say Sir John's uniform, perhaps the Sherlock's were both crew on a ship bringing Sir John back to Australia.
Cheers, JM
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It can't be the Legion d'Honneur?
The insignia for that award is a 5-pointed "Maltese Cross"?
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_Honour
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Correct, but Sir John MONASH was awarded the Legion of Honour :) and the chap in the photo is NOT wearing the Legion of Honour.
Légion d'honneur worn on the necktie indicates a Commandeur.
http://www.gwpda.org/medals/frenmedl/france.html
I would expect the Legion of Honour awarded to Sir John would be found in the London Gazette, as I am quite sure the King's permission would be required before wearing 'foreign' decorations, but I have not followed that up as I am quite sure the photo is not of Sir John.
Cheers, JM
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So I am wondering if this is a 'staged' photo, likely of Charles Sherlock, but perhaps taken without the knowledge of the General whose regalia and uniform has been carefully cleaned/polished/pressed etc. What occupation for Charles Sherlock's wife ..... perhaps if this is say Sir John's uniform, perhaps the Sherlock's were both crew on a ship bringing Sir John back to Australia.
Cheers, JM
Charles' wife, Mary Ellen Whorlton, was listed on their marriage certificate as a Stewardess on the SS Coolgardie. I would assume this is where they met as Charles was also on this ship. So, yes, this could be a possibility.
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Good evening,
Colonel and above never wore their rank on the sleeve at any time, it was always on the shoulder.
This is a Major general or Lieutenant General as there are only 2 parts to his rank insignia.
The hat seems perfectly good in size and fit to me, it looks much the same as the picture I posted of D'Oyly Snow. I doubt very much that someone would risk putting on the full uniform of a passenger on a ship. Especially a highly decorated officer, the last medal is indeed the Croix De Guerre with silver or gilt star on the ribbon.
The lack of a particular medal or award would not mean it is not a given officer. The photo may have been taken have been taken before the award was made.
This leaves 2 possibilities,
1, he is not British or Australian, but another nationality who wore the same style of uniform.
Or 2 the photo is later than WW1 and the KCB and KCMG are post war honours to an as yet unidentified officer. (Does the photo have a date on it anywhere)
John915
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Hello
I've been researching military uniforms for 25 years (sad, I know), and this photo looks totally bona fide to me. The British War Medal and Victory Medal were (of course) awarded after the end of the War, so this is certainly a post-war picture.
There seem to be two possibilities; either he was a general (unlikely given that no one seems to remember this very notable fact), or he is not the man in the photo. I have, for example, come across families who firmly believed a photo of Lord Kitchener was granddad so-and-so. All this kind of mistake requires is a long enough gap.
Still, it's curious that the whole family believe this is him. Given that general's uniforms haven't changed much in the past 100 years, I'm surprised the issue hasn't come up before if the picture is hanging up in lots of people's houses.
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My husband spoke to his mother last night and questioned where the photo came from. It was given to her by her Aunt shortly before her death. This Aunt would be the daughter of the man in question. So I'm fairly confident that it is him. That is about all she could tell him. He did die sometime before my mother in law was born. She is going to look on the back of the picture to see if there is anything written there. Hopefully this may provide a clue.
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Good evening,
I have now searched WW1, WW2 and between the wars. There is no sign of anyone by the name of Sherlock with rank of Colonel, Brigadier, Major General, Lt General, General or Field Marshall. Or not with those orders and medals, and lists are not always 100% accurate.
If he was British then I would expect to see quite a few pre WW1 medals on his jacket if he was of field officer rank in WW1. Although some officers did advance through the ranks without gaining many due to the postings they had.
Does anyone in the family have other photos of him in uniform or otherwise so a comparison can be made.
John915
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I have just placed him in 1918 on a ship - Ashridge - as a boatswain, travelling between Melbourne and Sydney.
This is getting stranger by the minute. Its clear he has no military history. I cannot come up with a valid reason he is in this uniform.
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Would it be any use forwarding the photo to the Australian War Memorial Research Centre to see if they can identify who it might be? Looking at a well sourced Ancestry tree it cannot be him in WW1. He seems to be well accounted for here in Australia on electoral roll, newspaper and shipping records. All seems to point to him allegedly being from North Shields, Northumberland. He is an informant for the birth of his son and gives his own birthplace as North Shields (per certificate online). Except we cannot find him under either parent CARTER or SHERLOCK, or misspellings.
Sorry, some of this information straddles two threads on the subject.
It is most intriguing, but I can see why it is doing your head in Rahnee ???
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Might also be helpful to know family historians have birth abt 1877 North Shields, Northumberland and died in 1937 in Kew, Victoria, Australia. Buried in unmarked grave.
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Would it be any use forwarding the photo to the Australian War Memorial Research Centre to see if they can identify who it might be? Looking at a well sourced Ancestry tree it cannot be him in WW1. He seems to be well accounted for here in Australia on electoral roll, newspaper and shipping records. All seems to point to him allegedly being from North Shields, Northumberland. He is an informant for the birth of his son and gives his own birthplace as North Shields (per certificate online). Except we cannot find him under either parent CARTER or SHERLOCK, or misspellings.
Sorry, some of this information straddles two threads on the subject.
It is most intriguing, but I can see why it is doing your head in Rahnee ???
Yes, its doing my head in. I've been working on the family trees for about 25 years now. So most of what I have now to research are either dead ends or things I cant research here. I'm just wishing for a breakthrough somewhere. :)
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Might also be helpful to know family historians have birth abt 1877 North Shields, Northumberland and died in 1937 in Kew, Victoria, Australia. Buried in unmarked grave.
This is something else that confuses me. Why was he buried in an unmarked grave? All his children were adults and were capable of arranging a funeral. He did die in the Kew Asylum. But one of his children (there were 5) had his picture (supposed) hanging on her wall.
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Would it be any use forwarding the photo to the Australian War Memorial Research Centre to see if they can identify who it might be?
I might try this if its possible. I'll look into it to see if I can.
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Like others I have made a thorough search and can find no reference to him in the Gazette, everyone who receives an Honour is listed, both UK and Commonwealth, someone of his rank should certainly show up, but there is nothing. I cannot find him in The Army Lists, and as it is hardly likely that someone with the background you have attributed to him so far, would achieve such an exalted military position in the years from the time he was seaman until his death.
I would suggest that the photo is of someone entirely different, and has been adopted as an image of Charles Sherlock at some stage.
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I think it would be worth a try with the Research Centre as they would probably use the same processes as some of the experts here. I have no knowledge of military uniforms myself.
There was a Charles Sherlock b. 1808 as a boarder, occupation excavator, staying in Hett, Durham on the England Census in 1871. Had a son Charles Walter Horne Fulliger Sherlock b. 1850 Havant, Hampshire. So that's no use either.
Can't really narrow down a Charles to being born 1875-1878 in North Shields, as have to search for all of "TYNEMOUTH". There are other Sherlock's that seem to be associated with North Shields e.g. Thomas Sherlock b. abt 1813 Tynemouth. North Shields certainly makes sense for someone with sea-faring origins.
Ahhhhh.....
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There was a Charles Sherlock born in Tynemouth, but that was c1864, thirteen years too early, he was a mercantile underwriter, and he died in Tynemouth in 1910. At least it confirms there was a family of that name living there at around the time your Charles said he was born.
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Yes, that is Charles Herbert Stanley Sherlock. We have eliminated him. He died in Northumberland in 1910. Thomas' son. Still it is interesting that there are other Sherlock's there in North Shields.
Might be worth reading the other thread. Linked in earlier replies.
Maybe he was a foundling, but the where did he get those names from? Parents: Charles Sherlock and Mary Carter.
Considered Mary may have had another surname and later became Carter, but then who is Charles Sherlock SNR?
No Charles Carter births c. 1877 either.
Did he borrow all this from Sherlock Holmes ::) ??? Is it an alias?
He got into a bit of trouble too, per TROVE newspapers, maybe fell out with family? Could he have bought the photo?
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Just throwing this out there...
If Charles Snr was a boilermaker then its possible he too was somehow connected with ships. :-\
There are records of a Charles Sherlock / Shurlock, mariner, b 1848 in either Hyth, Beds according to the 1871 census (RG10; Piece: 3777; Folio: 125; Page: 8;) or Heath Oxford according to the following TNA record:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11738569
In 1871 there is also an unmarried Mary Carter aged 30 from Liverpool lodging at Percy St Tynemouth. The family she is lodging with is also called Carter so may well have been family.
Possibly entirely unconnected but the 1881 census has the following in the Tynemouth Union Workhouse, North Shields:
Catherine Sherlock, 22, b Blyth
Mary Ann Sherlock, 3, b Bedlington
Isabella Sherlock, 1, b Blyth
I cant find Catherine in 1871 so whilst its a long-shot it may be worth getting the birth certificate of one of the children to see who their father was and whether he too was a boilermaker. If nothing else it MAY place Charles the mariner in North Shields at the right time ???
From the other thread:
This is still worth considering, particularly if the mariner was visiting North Shields at the time and he and Mary never married?
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This Charles Shurlock was born in 1847 in Hethe Oxfordshire and became a Master Mariner. In 1861 the family lived in Cumbria (which is about as close to Northumberland as I've got him) and his father was the Rector of Bassenthwaite. In 1869 (per his Master and Mate Certificate) he is living in Liverpool. Married Frances in 1890 in that city. Had three children and around 1901 emigrated to California, where they lived in San Diego.
Not seeming that likely either, but only on England Census 1851, 1861 and 1901, then US Census. That's a lot of sailing in between if skipping the Census, unless bad transcriptions ???
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In 1871 there is also an unmarried Mary Carter aged 30 from Liverpool lodging at Percy St Tynemouth. The family she is lodging with is also called Carter so may well have been family.
I guess she is next to check out
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There was a Charles Sherlock born in Tynemouth, but that was c1864, thirteen years too early, he was a mercantile underwriter, and he died in Tynemouth in 1910. At least it confirms there was a family of that name living there at around the time your Charles said he was born.
Charles Herbert Stanley Sherlock was born in 1861 in Tynemouth registration district. Cannot find him in 1871, so do not know what profession was then? Other Census give birthplace as North Shields. Technically old enough to be your Charles' dad if born 1877. But that same problem of no birth registration for yours.