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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: NNR on Thursday 09 October 14 12:23 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm trying to find some origins for an Ellen Margaretta Honey, born April 1845 at 51 Duke Street Devenport to Thomas Honey (a carpenter in the navy) and his wife Margarette Spargo. They had married in late 1841 in Totnes.
I have been unable to find the origins for this Thomas Honey, or where he is in the 1841 census. He was dead by the 1851 census. By this time, Ellen was living with her "Uncle" John Honey, aged 75 and of Buckland in Devon at Queen Street, Morice in Devenport. Was John her Uncle? Her Great Uncle? Her Grandfather? It's hard to tell. John lived with his wife Mary Ann (67, from Neat? in Cornwall) and their children Maria (38), John (35, a shipwright), and Adelaide (24) and Emma (19), both shipwright's outfitters. All these children were born at Devonport.
The trouble is that I can't find the origins for these Honeys either! The 1851 census has them in Devenport with additional children Thomas (then 22, a pawnbroker), William (then 20, a plumber) and James (then 10, a scholar), and the 1841 census has them at Queen Street with further children Elizabeth (then 20), John (then 15), and Richard (then 9).
I can't find baptisms for any of these children!
To summarise, I'm looking for:
Thomas Honey in the 1841 census
Potential baptisms for Thomas Honey (The only one I have found is of Whitstone in 1810, but this guy lived 'til 1895)
Potential baptisms for "Uncle" John Honey
Over to you experts...!
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1861 census (transcribed as Soney!):
Class: RG 9; Piece: 1451; Folio: 75; Page: 8
44 Queen Street, Stoke Damarel, Devonport, Devon
Details as you said:
By this time, Ellen was living with her "Uncle" John Honey, aged 75 and of Buckland in Devon at Queen Street, Morice in Devenport. Was John her Uncle? Her Great Uncle? Her Grandfather? It's hard to tell. John lived with his wife Mary Ann (67, from Neat? in Cornwall) and their children Maria (38), John (35, a shipwright), and Adelaide (24) and Emma (19), both shipwright's outfitters. All these children were born at Devonport.
1871 census:
Class: RG10; Piece: 2133; Folio: 59; Page: 44
39 Queen Street, Stoke Damarel
Honey, James Head M 30 Pawnbroker
Honey, Louisa Wife F 28
Honey, Louisa H Daughter F 3
Honey, Amy H Daughter F 2
Honey, Florence Daughter F 7 months
Honey, Ellen Cousin F 26 Pawnbrokers Assistant all born Devonport
+ 2 servants
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Thomas Honey (a carpenter in the navy) and his wife Margarette Spargo. They had married in late 1841 in Totnes.
Are you sure about this marriage date? I wonder what the source is. In Dec qtr 1841 I can see a Thomas Honey marriage in Totnes, but others on the page are Jane Blumpey, John Bolt and Ann Gilbert, according to FreeBMD.
On the other hand I see a 26 August 1830 marriage at St Andrew Plymouth between:
Thomas Honey of His Majesty's Ship Caledonia, and
Margaret Spargo of this parish.
After banns. Bride & groom signed.
Witnesses: John Honey (made his mark); James Boulter (signed).
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Very few parish registers from Devon are online, so finding the baptisms is going to be difficult?
Try:
Devon Heritage Services http://www.devon.gov.uk/parish_register_list
or FindMyPast?
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/world-records/search-all-uk-records/birth-marriage-death--and-parish-records/births-and-baptisms/parish-baptisms-1538-2005
or FamilySearch?
www.familysearch.org
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This I think is the first child:
Thomas Spargo Honey (1831): https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NYTM-HCM
After his nonconformist baptism he was baptised in the C of E at Stoke Damerel on 18 December 1831, as Thomas Honey. Parents: Thomas (mariner) and Margaret, of Devonport.
Sadly he was buried there on 26 Feb 1832, aged 6 months.
They went on to have another Thomas, born 4 Feb 1838 and baptised 8 July 1838 at Stoke Damerel. Parents: Thomas (mariner) and Margaret, of Devonport.
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Good Morning.
I hope I can help.So firstly they didn't marry in Totnes in 1841(pity as their marriage cert would give fathers names) or if they did it was a remarriage of their first wedding in St Andrews Plymouth 26.8.1830.
Thomas Honey of his majesty's ship Caledonia and Margaret Spargo of this parish witness John Honey and James Boulter.
At the same parish in 19.11.1820 a John Honey marries a Mary Ann Spargo ,the couple you have already found on the 1861 censuswith Ellen Margaretta Honey.
It looks like Mary Ann and Margaret Spargo were sisters both born in St Neots Cornwall daughters of John and Mary Spargo.Baptised Mary Ann 30.12.1798 and Peggy 20.9.1807 at St Neots.
Other siblings Jenifer 24.6.1793,John 27.9.1795,Nicholas 8.2.1801,Elizabeth 25.12.1802,James 9.2.1806,William 14.1.1810 and Eliza 28.6.1812.
The Honey's are Wesleyan Methodists and seem to be baptising there children at the Morrice St Weslyan chapel Devonport and it's predecessor the Princes St Independent Chapel.
Thomas and Margret's eldest child Thomas Spargo born 4.9.1831 is baptised at Morrice St 2.11.1831.
There is a John Honey 11.11.1785 s of Richard and Mary Honey but this John Honey seems to be on the censuses ,so not yours.
However in theory brothers Thomas and John Honey come from the parishes of St Andrews Plymouth and Buckland Monachoram which are unfortunately not online for the dates you need.The solution is to go to Devon record office which will have the records .Obviously if you don't live in in Devon this could be a problem.
So you could ask someone to go for you or you could try and track down Thomas's Naval records ,which may be on Find My Past which again I don't have a Sub for.There is a Thomas Honey born 1804 in the Navy 1831 you might take a look at.
Will try some more digging and if I find anything get back to you.
Ciderdrinker
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There is a burial for Margaret Honey aged 45, of 1 Chapel St, at Stoke Damerel on 13 May 1852 (death was on 8 May).
Her age would fit with the 1807 Cornish baptism of "Peggy" Spargo found by ciderdrinker.
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Thomas Honey aged 26 born Devonport was a caulker on HMS Caledonia, stationed at Hamoaze, Plymouth, on 1 May 1830.
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Slightly earlier than expected from the naval record (c1803-4 birth), but a Thomas Honey born 6 Sep 1802 was baptised at Stoke Damerel on 1 Dec 1802, son of John & Sarah.
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I have been unable to find the origins for this Thomas Honey, or where he is in the 1841 census. He was dead by the 1851 census.
How is it known that Thomas was deceased by 1851?
I see that an intestate estate of a Thomas Honey of Devonport was administered by a John Honey in 1854.
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It seems he was still alive in 1851
1851 census Church St Stoke Dameral
Margaret Honey/Henry on Ancestry 42 wife of carpenter at sea St Neots
William 13 Devonport
Ellen 5 Devonport
So Thomas must still be alive
Ciderdrinker
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Wow! You guys never cease to amaze me. Thank you so much!
I'll take the replies as they came in:
1861 census (transcribed as Soney!): - thanks! I already have this.
1871 census: - and this!
Are you sure about this marriage date? I wonder what the source is. In Dec qtr 1841 I can see a Thomas Honey marriage in Totnes, but others on the page are Jane Blumpey, John Bolt and Ann Gilbert, according to FreeBMD. - I took the marriage date from someone's FT on ancestry. I see they've got it wrong. I had seen an earlier reference to an 1830 marriage, but the gap between that date and the arrival of Ellen gave me some doubts. However, the link with the Caledonia (and John Honey!) does solidify this. Thank you!
Very few parish registers from Devon are online, so finding the baptisms is going to be difficult? - thanks for the links!
After his nonconformist baptism he was baptised in the C of E at Stoke Damerel on 18 December 1831, as Thomas Honey. Parents: Thomas (mariner) and Margaret, of Devonport. - I did have this reference, but had dismissed him due to the gap before 1845. However, the father's occupation does confirm this for me. Thank you!
They went on to have another Thomas, born 4 Feb 1838 and baptised 8 July 1838 at Stoke Damerel. Parents: Thomas (mariner) and Margaret, of Devonport. - and again, thanks!
At the same parish in 19.11.1820 a John Honey marries a Mary Ann Spargo ,the couple you have already found on the 1861 censuswith Ellen Margaretta Honey. - great! This helps confirm the uncle/niece link for me.
It looks like Mary Ann and Margaret Spargo were sisters both born in St Neots Cornwall daughters of John and Mary Spargo.Baptised Mary Ann 30.12.1798 and Peggy 20.9.1807 at St Neots. - thanks!
There is a burial for Margaret Honey aged 45, of 1 Chapel St, at Stoke Damerel on 13 May 1852 (death was on 8 May). - This seems likely to be her. I wonder where she was on the 1851 census? I've searched, but haven't found her yet. Ah, she's been found (see below!) Thank you!
Slightly earlier than expected from the naval record (c1803-4 birth), but a Thomas Honey born 6 Sep 1802 was baptised at Stoke Damerel on 1 Dec 1802, son of John & Sarah. - Looks feasible, but I thougth most of these records weren't available yet?
How is it known that Thomas was deceased by 1851? - Thomas sailed with Sir John Franklin to Northern Canada in 1845 and - like the rest of the crew - was never seen again.
I see that an intestate estate of a Thomas Honey of Devonport was administered by a John Honey in 1854. - Could well be the right one. It took several years before people were convinced all the crew were dead.
It seems he was still alive in 1851 - He was certainly assumed to be alive, and he might have still been at the time, but word didn't reach England for a while longer that the crew had been wiped out.
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Thomas sailed with Sir John Franklin to Northern Canada in 1845 and - like the rest of the crew - was never seen again.
It took several years before people were convinced all the crew were dead.
Goodness - what a story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin%27s_lost_expedition
www.rmg.co.uk/explore/sea-and-ships/in-depth/franklins-last-expedition
I see that the expedition had set out in 1845. John Rae's 1854 expedition brought back evidence of the crew's fate - that would indeed tie in to the 1854 administration of Thomas Honey's intestate estate.
How agonising for the families left behind.
Is a full crew list available?
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1851 census Church St Stoke Dameral
Margaret Honey/Henry on Ancestry 42 wife of carpenter at sea St Neots
William 13 Devonport
Ellen 5 Devonport
Just wondering if William is listed as a son here?
And for the other query - here's the full muster of the ships.
http://www.ric.edu/faculty/rpotter/muster.html
It's been in the news recently, as HMS Erebus has just been located after all these years.
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Just wondering if William is listed as a son here?
He is. Given his age it looks likely that William is the same person as Thomas baptised in 1838. Later censuses show a Thomas Honey of the right age born in Devonport. 1881 shows him as ship's carpenter, in Stoke Damerel, with a wife Maria.
I haven't seen anything to suggest that Thomas & Margaret had a William.
If they are one and the same, "William" in the 1851 may be an enumerator's error, or it may be as case, as sometimes happened, where a family used an informal alternative name for a son who shared his father's name to distinguish him until he moved out of the parental home.
Incidentally the family's address in that 1851 census entry is 1a Chapel St - corresponding almost perfectly to the address of 1 Chapel St on the 1852 burial of Margaret Honey.
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"Thomas Honey born 6 Sep 1802 was baptised at Stoke Damerel on 1 Dec 1802, son of John & Sarah."
Regarding this reference, is there anything similar around 1796 giving a John Honey as the son of the same John and Sarah?
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"Thomas Honey born 6 Sep 1802 was baptised at Stoke Damerel on 1 Dec 1802, son of John & Sarah."
Regarding this reference, is there anything similar around 1796 giving a John Honey as the son of the same John and Sarah?
No, but he claims to have been born in Buckland Monachorum (per 1851 - Buckland per 1861) and if he was baptised there one wouldn't currently expect to find it online, as ciderdrinker said.
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John Honey is 65 in 1851; 75 in 1861.
So one would expect a birth c1786 rather than c1796.
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Sorry, my typo on his birth year! Buckland and Devenport are a fair way apart - and the assumed dobs of both men are around 16 years apart, which still gives me some niggling doubts about this connection!
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We know there is a connection (given that Ellen is enumerated in 1861 as his niece) but, as you say, not with any certainty what the connection was. Niece was often used outside the precise uncle-niece relationship we think of.
John could have been e.g. a cousin of Ellen's father Thomas.
The 1830 naval record is useful in that it gives a Devonport birthplace for Thomas.
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Perhaps indeed a cousin, but seems likely they were close given that John witnessesThomas' marriage.
He could be an uncle of Thomas' I suppose.
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He could be an uncle of Thomas' I suppose.
Yes, though if the baptism for Thomas (son of John) is correct, then less likely that he'd also have an uncle John.
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This comes from replying on the walk to my car! I fail to think things through. Stupid!
However, anyone reading the ship's muster will have noticed a Samuel Honey, too. I've had rather more luck here. He was born around 1823 according to the ship's muster, so I started there.
In this time period, we have births for various Samuel Honeys in Kilkhampton (1819), Prescot (1818), Norfolk (1826) and Devenport (1822). I thought this was the best one to go with due to the Devonport connection of the other Mr. Honey. The baptism of this "Samuel Pope Honey" took place in December 1822 in Devenport and was nonconformist. His parents were a William and Elizabeth Honey, and his apparent sister was Elizabeth, who was born in April 1818 and baptised that August at Morrice St. Wesleyan Church in Devenport.
An 1841 census shows William ("a stone...something") and Elizabeth, both aged 40 at 13 Wellington Street in Devenport. An Ellen...Santhly? aged 3 also resides there.
At the time the census was taken, Samuel can be located at the Seaman's Hospital Ship Dreadnought, docked at Greenwich. He was a "P. Ableman" according to the census. He would be dead in a foreign continent by the time of the next census.
I suppose the question I'm looking to answer is whether Samuel's father was Thomas and John's brother or not? There were two brothers - Hartnells - serving on Franklin's ships, and it would be interesting to find another familial connection among the men. Could Thomas and Samuel have been Uncle and Nephew?
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Good Morning
You could well be right and Samuel Pope Honey was Thomas's nephew.
John and Sarah Honey also had a son William 4.10.1794 bapt 16.11.1794 at Stoke Dameral .
As you know the 1841 census ages are rounded down up to 5 years so that could fit.
They also had the following at S/D
Richard 7.6/28.7.1787
Betsey 12.10.1788/13.4.1789
Richard 10.4.1791
Henry 11.11.1796/7.10.1797
Betsey Culing Honey 3.3.1801
John would fit in quite nicely at 1785 and their oldest son baptised perhaps in his mother's parish.Women often went home to be with their mother for the birth of their first child.
There is a marriage of a John Pike Honey to a Sarah Warrin 1783 on Devon records at Familysearch but the exact details are only available at a Family History centre.
Richard is also interesting as the 1841 census in Cherry Gardens Stoke Dameral has a Margaret Honey age 30 living next door to a Richard Honey age 45 shipwright ,and his family,on latter censuses born 1791 Devonport.
Just a thought ,perhaps another brother.
Ciderdrinker
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Very interesting, thank you! Is Thomas' baptism to John and Sarah the last one they appear to have?
Is there a marriage record available for John and Sarah? Presumably at Buckland, though.
Finally, the Margaret Honey in 1841 - does she have (likely) family listed?
Many thanks for this - it all seems to be falling into place!
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Hello
No I'm afraid that Margaret Honey in 1841 is on her own.I can't see William or Thomas age about 3.
The entry is
Richard Honey 45 shipwright y
Ann 30 y
Mary Ann 7 y
William 6 y
Richard 4 y
Joseph 2m y
Mary Cotterill 75 y
dash
Mary Ann Lobb?15 f s y(female servant)
dash
Margaret Honey 30 y
Then it goes onto a Isiah Pretty
A possible marriage for John Pike Honey to a Sarah Warrin 1783 on Familysearch under Devon records but the details are only available at a Family History centre which is a pain.
Sorry
Ps just had a look at FindMyPast and it seems the marriage is on there as John Pike Honey at Plymouth St Charles.Also a birth of a John honey in 1785 at Plymouth Old Tabernacles so perhaps born BM and baptised Plymouth
Again I haven't got a sub but some one must have.
Ciderdrinker
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Thanks for the details from the census.
"A possible marriage for John Pike Honey to a Sarah Warrin 1783 on Familysearch under Devon records but the details are only available at a Family History centre which is a pain." - still useful to have the year, though. Thank you!
And if anyone does have a sub, more detail would be great to have!!
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This thread had me very confused. I searched and searched for a Samuel Pope Honey baptised in Devonport in 1822 - then realised that you have the name wrong.
Samuel Pike Honey was born the 8th December 1822 and baptised the 24 December 1822 in Stoke Damerel, Devon to William and Elizabeth Honey. William's occupation was a smith
The baptism is from FindMyPast
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The relationship of John and Thomas is through their wives. John Honey married Mary Ann Spargo the sister of Margaret Spargo the wife to Thomas Honey. Mary Ann and Margaret were both baptised in St Neot, Cornwall to John and Mary Spargo. Margaret was baptised as Peggy Spargo
Therefore in 1861 Ellen was actually the niece of Mary Am (Spargo) Honey