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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: jkitchin on Thursday 30 June 05 19:40 BST (UK)
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I am searching for this marriage. I alreday have 2 certificates that do not match. Their first child, Michael, was born Dec 1869. Catherine was born 1851 and Thomas abt 1843. As far as I know Thomas was born in Southport. Catherine was definately born in Southport and lived in Snuttering Lane. So far I have not been able to turn anything up in the Parish records. I have searched the GRO index from 1868 (when Catherine would have been 17) up to 1872 but to no avail. I have also drawn a blank on Ancestory and bmd. I know ther is a possibilty that they never married but I would be suprised. I need to establish the father of Thomas so that I can go back further. Any help appreciated.
Jean
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Thomas moves his birthplace on each census
1901 Crossens
1891 Southport
1881 Liverpool
1871 Southport - living in N. Meols
1861 N. Meols - a servant in N Meols.
There are quite a few other Croppers born in N. Meols on the 1861 census.
You might want to ask for a look up on the 1851 census in N. Meols to see if there is a Thomas of the right age with his parents.
There is a Thomas Cropper birth registered Ormskirk (district covering N. Meols) in 1842.
There are problems with the civil registration - mistakes were made by clerks when they entered details into the index (there was no checking system). When the indexes wore out and typists were brought into to retype the names (again no checking system) and sometimes the records themselves not getting to the central registry from the local registry (usually in the early days of registration). Some family history societies are indexing local registry offices' certificates. There is a project under way for Lancashire
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
but as yet I don't think any Ormskirk district marriages have been entered.
If either of the two people had been married before then because divorce was outside the reach of anyone who couldn't afford it (most people) then remarriage wasn't possible if an early marriage failed. People were pragmatic and lived togther as married with their new partners or undertook bigamous marriages, or separated and didn't remarry, or stuck through the bad marriage. These were their choices.
If Catherine had married young and been widowed then of course she would have been free to marry Thomas but she would not have used the surname Formby.
Regards
Valda
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Velda
Thank you for this. I have tried to match him on the 1851 census in he local library. There are a couple of possibilties but that is why I really wanted to find the marriage so that I can establish who is father was and then works backwards.
As you say it is complicated by the fact that his place of birth varies on all of the cenuses. My sister is adamant though that my Grandfather was a "Sangrounder" so that would mean he was born in Southport and not Liverpool. I will keep searching...........
Many thanks
Jean
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There is just one close match in 1851:
Water Lane, Crossens, North Meols:
Thomas Cropper. Head. 45. Ag Lab. N.Meols
Ann Cropper. Wife. 44. N. Meols
Richard Cropper. son. 23. Handloom weaver (silk). N.Meols
Robert Cropper. son. 20. Ag Lab. N.Meols
Alice Jane Cropper. Dau. 11. Scholar. N.Meols
Thomas Cropper. Son. 8. Scholar. N.Meols
Betty Cropper. Dau. 6. Scholar. N.Meols
The other nearest Thomas' in age in the census are aged 2 and 18, so I think we can establish that yours was son of Thomas & Ann.
Crossens was in North Meols, an old district which also covered South Haws, Marshside, Churchtown, Little London and others. The parish also covered Birkdale (though this was a separate village). In the late 1700's, the town of Southport developed close to South Haws from the increasing fashion for "taking the waters" and the demand for lodgings near the beach. Southport was, and still is, part of the old North Meols district. Once established as a fashionable centre, the old residential areas of Crossens, Little London etc became districts of Southport. Birkdale remained politically separate until the late 1800's, when it finally merged with Southport and became a further outlying district of the larger town.
So Thomas' description of birthplaces is accurate as North Meols, Crossens or Southport... as Crossens is part of Southport, which is part of North Meols... Liverpool doesn't count, however, so he lied there!
I have the full 1851 census for birkdale, North Meols, Ainsdale, Formby & Altcar, and there are a few Croppers in North Meols at the time, though it's not an old local name... this means that their church records won't be as easy to track down, as the common/long standing local names are available as one-name extracts from the family hitory society.
I have found what appears to be Thomas & Ann's marriage in IGI:
Thomas Cropper = Ann Blundell 12th Sept 1826. This ties in well with the age of the eldest child in 1851.
There's a close match in baptisms: Thomas Cropper, bap 25th Nov 1804. parents Richard & Alice (this matches the firstborn boy & girl names amongst Thomas' children, which helps to confirm the match).
Any help?
Impy
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Impy
Thanks very much for this. I am fairly sure you are right. These are the same assumptions as I had come to. I have a birth certificate for the Thomas, birth registered in Ormskirk 1842, which shows his parents as Thomas and Ann (maiden name Blundell) and I have gone forward on the assumption that this is the one. As you say all of the names tie in. I would really just like to find the marriage to be sure. There are quite a few records for Cropper in the North Meols parish records. I have a one name search of them and I have been to Lancashire records office and found quite a few in other church records. I have also found a lot on LDS in a pedigree resource file. I think that they migrated to St John's, Crossens when this church was built as they "thin out" round about 1830's in North Meols records. Unfortunately the parish records for St Johns are not at the records office but I have contacted the vicar and I will be going to view the records. He laready checked the burials (which he has computerised) and he found around 40+ Croppers.
I was born in Southport by the way and still live there.
Many thanks for your help.
Jean
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Theres a marriage for a Catherine Formby September 1868 West Derby Lancs Vol 8b Page 502. Found the other couple Ann Morgan and Edwin John Roberts on the 1871 census, so the other groom Thomas "Crawford" must have married Catherine. Couldn't find a Thomas and Catherine Crawford on the 1871 census, so could the "Crawford" be a mistransciption/mistake for "Cropper"?? Just a thought.....
amendment, there is one in Manchester, is West Derby near there?? (they had two children born pre 1868 though...)
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I didn't mean to suggest that they were only passing through... there are enough of them in 1851 to suggest they'd been there for a few generations... but I haven't come across any in the early records (late 1500's). The Rimmers are a nightmare to research because there were so many!! Other families have been there since at least 1380 (like my own), yet weren't as numerous as the Rimmers, Wrights, Rigbys etc, who arrived more recently.
I'm also a local gal... I grew up in Birkdale (though in Liverpool now) and my parents are still there. Almost all my paternal lineage is North Meols (I have my Hodge line back to 1580)... so I'm particularly keen on anything North Meols related.
Because there's a manageable number of them, it means there's only the one Thomas who comes close in age.
I have the Christ Church registers, which was the first church (apart from the ancient St Cuthberts), but I can't recall seeing any Croppers in there.... but with almost all of them living in Crossens, they would've stayed at St Cuthberts and moved to St John's when that was built.
Obviously the marriage record would be very useful, not only to prove the families, but also for the possible extended family it might open up with the witnesses.
I'm guessing Catherine was daughter of Michael & Alice Formby of Snuttering lane in 1851 (both born Formby...Catherine not with them yet in March) with his sister, Ann Formby & their children Elizabeth & John.
As I said, I have various resources (51 census, Christ Church baptisms 1821-38, one-name extracts for Hodge, Rimmer, Howard, Johnson, Jackson, Marshall), plus the ancestry.co.uk records. Let me know if I can help with anything.
Impy
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CatOne,
West Derby covers part of Liverpool, Bootle, Crosby etc plus Toxteth Park until it had its own registration district established.
As both the couple lived in North Meols, it's unlikely that they married in West Derby (though not impossible, as the new railway in the 1840's opened the area up more for travel)... but I'd expect them to have lived in the Liverpool area if they'd married there.
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Cat One
Thanks for this. I have been down the Thomas Crawford route, thinking it might be an error, I bought the certificate but he was living in Bootle at the time of marriage and Catherine in Litherland. I had dismissed this but the vicar at St
John's Crossens has checked the marriage registers for me a few years either side of 1868 and found nothing. I think that means the only church I have not checked in Southport is Christ Church. What is interesting is that on the marriage certificate for Thomas Crawford and Catherine Formby, Catherine's father is Michael and Impy indicates that this is the same as the Formby family living in Snuttering Lane in 1851 as indicated by Impy. This is definately the same family as Catherine is there on 1861 census but alice is a widow by this time. Also, Thomas's father is Thomas as well which fits. IT may be a massive co-incidence because I can't work out why either of them would be in the Bootle/ Litherland area but it may be worth checking the parish records. Any one know where they might be for Bootle Chapel in the Parish of Walton on the Hill in the County of Lancaster?
Jean
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Impy
Many thanks - I was also born in Birkdale but now live in Crossens.
I have not seen the census entry for 1851 for the Formby family, only the 1861. As I indicated below to Cat One, Alice is a widow by this time. Please could you let me have the full details?
You will see in my reply to Cat One that I am a bit perplexed about the Thomas Crawford marriage. I really thought Thomas and Catherine's marriage would turn up in the St John's Crossens registers. By the 1871 census they are married (presumably) and living next door to the Formby's in Snuttering Lane they then move onto Broome Road in Birkdale where they stay. St Peter's Birkdale parish records only start from 1876. I understand Snuttering Lane is what is now Cemetry Road so they were heading up to Birkdale by 1871. I can't think where else to look.
Do you have the marriages for Christ Church around 1869? I think that is the only place I have not looked?
On 1851 census I have 5 Cropper families:
John Cropper and family at 40 Crossens
Thomas (as in your previous message) at 47 Crossens
John Cropper and family at 48 Crossens
John Cropper and family at 54 Crossens
Thomas Cropper and family at 89 Crossens
This is what I picked up from Southport Library - have you seen any more?
Really appreciate your help
Many thanks
Jean
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OK, a few points to cover:
Bootle church records & census returns are available at Liverpool Record Office at central library. I do have the 1841 index for North Liverpool which includes ages and occupations.
I'm afraid I only have Christ Church baptisms 1821-1838, I'm not sure what else is readily available (I'm not aware of any printed transcripts for sale for other events/years).. but Southport Library may have the records on film or their own transcripts.
Here's Michael Formby's 1851 return at Snuttering Lane 498/27:
Michael Formby. head. 29. Bricklayer's Lab. Formby
Alice Formby. Wife. 28. Formby
Elizabeth Formby. Dau. 6. Birkdale
John Formby. son. 5. Southport
Ann Formby. Sister. 20. Hse Serv. Formby
There is just one other Formby in the North Meols census. Manchester Rd 470/86:
Ann Formby. Head. 73. House Proprietor. Liverpool
Jane Naele. grand daughter. 16. Kirkdale
Emma Yates. Vis. 61. Sick Nurse. Bolton
Now for the other Croppers in the town:
544/21. Churchtown
John Cropper. Head. 47. Cotton Weaver (rtd). North Meols
Richard Cropper. son. 18. Handloom weaver (silk). N Meols
Ellen Cropper. Dau. 15. Handloom weaver (silk). N Meols
525/16. Rowe Lane
Richard Cropper. serv. 19. N Meols. Ag Lab for farmer, Henery Rimmer, aged 34)
575/40. Marshside
Richard Cropper. Head. 76. Ag Lab/Pauper. N Meols
Alice Cropper. Wife. 79. Pauper. N Meols
610/98. Crossens
John Waring. Head. 55. Farmer. Scarisbrick
Ellen Waring. Wife. 51. Scarisbrick
James Waring. son. 26. N Meols
John Waring. son. 24. N Meols
Alice Waring. Dau. 22. N Meols
Thomas Waring. Son. 19. N Meols
John Waring. G/son. 6. At Home. N Meols
Henry Cropper. G/son. 5. At Home. N Meols
Betty Waring G/Dau. 2. N Meols
630/3. Gor Hall, Gorsey Lane
Thomas Cropper. Head. 48. Farmer. N Meols
Elizabeth Cropper. Wife. 52. N Meols
Ann Cropper. Dau. 18. Employed at Home. N Meols
Ellen Cropper. Dau. 13. Dressmaker. N Meols
Richard Cropper. Son. 9. Scholar. N Meols
Isabel Cropper. Dau. 5. N Meols
plus servants Thomas Brookfield 18 & Peter Prescot 16, both born N Meols
638/56. Charnleys Lane, Banks
Peter Cropper. Head. 80. Farmer. N Meols
Ann Cropper. Wife. 75. N Meols
Margaret Cropper. Dau. 49. N Meols
Isabel Cropper. Dau. 32. N Meols
Peter Cropper. Son. 30. N Meols
Hamlet Cropper. son. 26. N Meols
Hugh Waring. Serv. 17. N Meols
Note Hugh Waring, same name as the grandparents of Henry Cropper... perhaps Hugh is a relative.
These, plus those you have already, are the total Croppers in North Meols in 51, there were none in Birkdale. Obviously, there are many Formbys in the Birkdale, Ainsdale, Formby & Altcar return, but I'd need a guide for who to look for if you need details of Michael's family.
Though the idea of the couple marrying in West Derby is odd, given their origin and residence in 1871 being North Meols... it does seem a remarkable coincidence if the father was named as Michael.... this wasn't a common name in the 19thC.
One thing that should be noted, though, is that if they did marry in West Derby, they would require a local residence to fulfill the legal requirements for the marriage. It was common, therefore, for couples to take a temporary residence or just give a friend's/relative's address as their own in order to give the impression of living locally.
If family disapproved of the match, or they felt that someone may make a formal, legal objection to the marriage, they may have chosen an area where no-one knew them. Was one of them under 18? if so, they may have gone to another area and lied about the age because the parents wouldn't give the necessary consent (as was, and still is, required for a marriage for someone aged 16-18).
Let me know how you get on with that lot
Impy
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I think it's definitely worth getting hold of the original church record of this marriage, though they don't usually contain anything different to the certificate (they are filled in at the same time, so are almost always duplicates of each other).
Perhaps Thomas chose to change his name for the same reason they chose to marry outside their area.
Do the occupations of Thomas and the fathers also match the census details? if so... I think the circumstantial evidence would be overhwelming in favour of this being your couple.
Impy
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Hi Impy
Thanks very much for all the information. I will work through it over the weekend.
On the marriage cert of Thomas Crawford and Catherine Formby the ocupation of both fathers is stated as "Labourer" so it ties in with the census to some degree (Thomas's father Agricultural Labourer and Catherine's Bricklayers Labourer). However, the witnesses are interesting - John and Elizabeth Formby. As you are aware from the census information you sent me these are the names of Catherine's brother and sister! It's looking as if this is a match don't you think?
Once again, many thanks for your help and the information you have provided.
Jean
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It is looking very likely. I guess there's a possibility that the church register has his real name on it... it might be worth checking out.
Obviously, labourer was a common occupation... I think her father's name is the clincher, on top of the other name matches and the occupations.
I know her father was dead by 1861 (is Catherine's father listed as deceased on the marriage cert? sometimes they didn't state it, but it was normal practice to do so if he was dead)... I've checked the 61-01 censuses, and there's no Michael Formby old enough to qualify as head of a different family in Liverpool to suggest there were 2 Catherines born to 2 different Michaels.
There is also only 1 death for a Michael who would match... registered March quarter 1852, Ormskirk district. The only other Michael is one born 1874, Ormskirk dist who died in 1901... he was from Birkdale, son of John & Flora Formby (1881 match for them on the LDS site).
Mind you, the marriage record is just a bonus, as the 51 returns seem to provide proof of their families anyway.
Impy
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Impy
Thanks. Catherine's father is not noted as deceased on the cert but as you say the other information is certainly looking strong enough to confirm that this is Catherine and Thomas Formby. I will try and track down the Church records just to tie it up.
Many thanks
Jean
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Hi Impy:
I am interested in your input about Richard and Alice Cropper whose son, Thomas, was born in 1804.
Do you possibly know Alice's maiden name?
Also, is the occupation of Richard noted on this baptism record?
The reason I am interested is that my gr-gr grandfather was Stephen Cropper. He was the son of Richard Cropper, hatter, and Alice (maiden name unknown but could be Blackwall). Stephen was born in Southwark, Surrey in late 1807. He died in 1865 and is buried in the churchyard at St. Marie on the Sands in Southport.
Any help you can give me would be great!
Fred Claussen
Saratoga, CA USA
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Hi Fred
The wife of Richard and mother of Thomas born 1804 - her maiden name was Alice Tasker. This family were born in North Meols and stayed there all their lives so I do not think there is a link with your Stephen. Richard's occupation is not stated on Thomas's baptism but in general the family were farmers and farm labourers.
I have about 300 Cropper's in my tree now and not one Stephen. Sorry I can't be of any more help but at least you can eliminate that avenue.
Jean
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Hi Jean:
Thanks very much for the reply and the information you sent.
I will continue to pursue other avenues for my Croppers. l have a strong hint that my branch of the Croppers might have originated in the Rochdale area but have not been able to prove it yet. Stephen only lived in Southport for the last ~2 years of his life. His second wife, Marth Finnell Cropper, also lived there (in Birkdale) until her death in 1876.
BTW: I agree with you completely that Stephen was a very un-common name for a Cropper in the early-mid nineteenth centruy. I have not yet found another occurrence.
Fred Claussen
Saratoga, CA
USA
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Hi
I used to work for an old family ran company near Kendal, Cumbria called James Cropper and Sons in the eighties, it was a large paper mill @ Burneside, just outside Kendal
I don't know if this is relevant to your family, just that perhaps it is another branch you hav'nt found yet and is worth looking at
Prior to the boundary changes this area was Westmorland
Just thought it could be of some use
Andrew
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Hi Jean - maybe my info is a bit late!! Bootle church records are also held at Crosby library - I find it easier to go there, and the parking is free........
Glenys
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Firstly, I realise that its probably futile responding to a six year old post, but hey, you never know!
In my family tree i have a John Formby born circa 1819 in North Meols (or perhaps Liverpool) . He married the widow Mary Caroline McCormick (nee Morris) on 17 July 1842 in Liverpool.
some additional info as written by me to the lovcal newspaper a few years back
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I am seeking information about John Formby, born in North Meols in 1819. In 1842 he married my Gt, gt, gt Grandmother Mary Caroline McCormick. In the 1881 census, having been recently widowed he was back in North Meols. Occupation - Pensioner Army. Address 210 Hart Street. Head of Household John Keen. If anyone can cast any more light on him i would be most grateful.
Many Thanks"
I was wondering about any possible connection?!
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I don't think there is any connection but is there a fathers name for John Formby on his marriage certificate?
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This is the info from the marriage certificate:
17th July 1842 - St Marys, Highfield St, Liverpool
John Formby, son of Thomas Formby, residence Byrom St, witness - Elizabeth McDonald.
Married
Mary Caroline McCormick, daughter of William Morris, residence Marybone, witness - Thomas Lewis
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I live in Thurnham near Glasson Dock and I have Croppers on my database of Thurnham inhabitants that go back pre-1602 - any interest to you?
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I know I am butting in, but if any of you folks researching Formbys ever come across a John Formby born around 1866/7 in either Altcar or Liverpool (seems he was not certain) with a farm labourer father named William (deceased by 1888 according to John's marriage cert), then please let me know as currently, he is my most stubborn brick wall!
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Who did the John Formby born about 1867 in either Altcar or Liverpool marry? Where is he on a census?
Gibel
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The John Formby born 1819 married to Mary Caroline Cartwright as far as I can see gives his place of birth as Formby in the 1871 and 1861 census when he is in Standish st in Liverpool. Unfortuantely there doesn't seem to be a baptism at Formby for him.
Formby was a chapelry in the parish of Walton on the Hill so it's possible he was christened elsewhere. The other possibility was that if the family had connections within North meols parish he could have been christened there. On his marriage certificate what is the occupation of Thomas his father?
Gibel
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Who did the John Formby born about 1867 in either Altcar or Liverpool marry? Where is he on a census?
Gibel
He married Ann Finch in 1888 - she died in 1897 leaving him with three children (Jane, William, Margaret). He's on the 1891 census at 29 Camden Street, Bootle (a timber carter, born Liverpool) and in 1901 at Canal Bank, Lydiate (a teamsman, born Formby - sorry, noticed I had written Altcar on here yesterday, this is where his son was born! :-[).
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Where were John and Ann married?
Gibel
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St Marie's RC Chapel, Lydiate. 29th October 1888. That's from a copy of the cert that's been in the family for decades so we know it's the correct one. Ann is noted as Annie on the cert which is what she was always known as. Annie was from Downholland.