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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: yelsel on Sunday 28 September 14 17:02 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am researching the Harradine/Harrodin family and have found the following records which I have not able to verify.
James Harradine born 1783 in Old Warden. I know his wife was Elizabeth born about 1782 in Bedfordshire and I found a marriage to Elizabeth Cox on 15 Mar 1812 in Southill. Both James and Elizabeth died in London but were both buried in All Saints Church, Southill. Is this the right Elizabeth and who were her parents.
James' parents James and Elizabeth Harradine. James born 31/03/1751 in Sandy. I found a marriage to Elizabeth Mardelden on 10 Oct 1770 in Old Warden, but haven't found any records of a birth for her. Possible death for James 22 Aug 1813 in Sandy and Elizabeth 4 April 1817 in Southill.
James parents Isaac and Elizabeth Haradine. Isaac born July 1732 in Sandy. Possible marriage to Eliz Shelton 16 October 1749 in Sandy, birth details not known. I did find a burial record for Elizabeth Harodine on 20 Feb 1752 in Sandy shortly before the death of a son William who died in March 1752. I also found a marriage for Isaac to Ann Franklin 14 Dec 1788, did he remarry? Possible death of Isaac 28 Nov 1797 in Sandy.
Isaac parents Isaac Harradine and Elizabeth. Isaac born about 1698 in Sandy. Possible marriage to Elizabeth Squire on 11 Feb 1723 in Sandy. Her birth details not known. Possible burial of Elizabeth 20 Mar 1748 in Sandy and Isaac 08 April 1757.
Apologies for the many requests but if anyone can confirm or add anything it would be appreciated.
Many Thanks
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Virtually all Beds baptisms and marriages pre 1813 have been extracted onto the IGI at www.familysearch.org so, as long as the entries are in the Community Indexed IGI section, they're reliable.
Short of completely going through your Harradine tree your request is too expansive. You need to break it down into bite sized portions so that we stand a chance, otherwise any replies will become too messy.
Let's start with the most recent event:
James Harradine born 1783 in Old Warden. I know his wife was Elizabeth born about 1782 in Bedfordshire and I found a marriage to Elizabeth Cox on 15 Mar 1812 in Southill. Both James and Elizabeth died in London but were both buried in All Saints Church, Southill. Is this the right Elizabeth and who were her parents.
The marriage in Southill on 15 Mar 1812 - both were otp, but James was a widower, so you need to be looking for an earlier marriage. There's a baptism of a James Harrowdine in Southill on 27 Aug 1809, son of James and Rebecca, and a burial of James Harrowdine on 10 Sep 1809 (no other detail for either event). There's a burial in Southill on 26 Sep 1810 of Rebecca Harrodine, so this may be the first marriage. I can't see a marriage of a James Harradine and Rebecca in Beds but there is a marriage in St Olave, Southwark on 29 Jul 1807 between James Harredine and Rebecca Sarl, and there's a baptism of a Rebecca Sarl in Southill on 9 Feb 1783 daughter of William and Jane Sarl, carpenter. Not proof though!
When were they buried in Southill? I assume you've found them in censuses to establish their birthplaces (counties). In fact they seem to have been living in Southill in 1841 James 58 and Elizabeth 59, but Elizabeth's birthplace is NOT born in Beds.
What's the evidence that James was the one baptised on 22 Jun 1783 in Old Warden?
David
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James Harradine born 1783 in Old Warden. I know his wife was Elizabeth born about 1782 in Bedfordshire and I found a marriage to Elizabeth Cox on 15 Mar 1812 in Southill. Both James and Elizabeth died in London but were both buried in All Saints Church, Southill. Is this the right Elizabeth and who were her parents.
The marriage in Southill on 15 Mar 1812 - both were otp, but James was a widower, so you need to be looking for an earlier marriage. There's a baptism of a James Harrowdine in Southill on 27 Aug 1809, son of James and Rebecca, and a burial of James Harrowdine on 10 Sep 1809 (no other detail for either event). There's a burial in Southill on 26 Sep 1810 of Rebecca Harrodine, so this may be the first marriage. I can't see a marriage of a James Harradine and Rebecca in Beds but there is a marriage in St Olave, Southwark on 29 Jul 1807 between James Harredine and Rebecca Sarl, and there's a baptism of a Rebecca Sarl in Southill on 9 Feb 1783 daughter of William and Jane Sarl, carpenter. Not proof though!
David
Good circumstantial evidence though, David. I can't find any London baptisms for children of James and Rebecca so that is a bit more weight. Also one of the witnesses is a John Sarl and William and Jane baptised a John in Southill 5 Dec 1784. I would think they are well worth exploring further, yelsel
Jan ;)
There is a John Sarl born Southill c 1788 in Streatham in 1851
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I think it's probably the right marriage Jan - if I didn't I probably wouldn't have mentioned it, at least not without raising red flags.. It is, as you say, good circumstantial evidence, but ideally I'd like a bit more than that. As Elizabeth Cox says that she wasn't from Beds perhaps she was from Southwark, and I think I'd be looking at this angle (a bit later - muddled thinking - why would Elizabeth have been from Southwark? She could have been from anywhere. Ignore that! )
David
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Ah see you've added a bit about Elizabeth Cox not being from Beds, David. I also added a bit more about John Sarl born Southill being in Streatham in 1851.
Yelsel you say James and Elizabeth died in London - How do you know? Where did they die? Did James have a family connection in London perhaps?
Jan
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An Elizabeth Harradine aged 68 was buried in Southill in 1847, and a James Harradine aged 74 in 1853. But I can't find James in 1851.
David
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You ask "Is this the right Elizabeth?". In the absence of any other information eg the baptism of a child of James and Elizabeth, it's impossible to say other than Yes, this is the Elizabeth who married James Harradine widower in Southill in 1812. If the Harradine that you're researching was one of the three Harradines baptised in Southill between 1812 and 1820, children of James and Elizabeth, then the answer is probably yes, it's the right Elizabeth. If you're researching a Harradine baptised in a parish other than Southill the answer is probably, no this is not the right marriage.
The answer depends on what you're trying to prove!
David
PS I've just found that my 4xg grandmother was Ann Harradine baptised 1765 in Southill. Perhaps we're distantly connected. I didn't get very far in tracing her family. Now I'll have to look harder!
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There were two Harradine families living in Southill in the 1801 census:
James Harradine who shared a house with an Isherwood family. 2 families, 4 males, 2 females, 2 employed in agriculture, 1 in trade. Impossible to know with any certainty if James was single or married - a Robert & Frances Isherwood baptised a son in Southill in 1800. They only married in Southill in 1799 so my interpretation, which might be wide of the mark, is that there were two families each with 3 members in it (Later: they were connected - Frances Isherwood was née Harradine, but I can't find her baptism)
and
John Harrowdine, 1 family, 3 males 3 females, 2 employed in agriculture, 4 not working in either agriculture or trade. I can't see who this family was so can't rule out the possibility that James was a part of it and therefore wasn't the 1783 Old Warden James whose father was James.
With baptisms that I can't trace, pointing to possible non-conformity, of which there were a number in Southill (as Jan and I know to our cost!), unless you have a firm link to James in Old Warden I don't think you can assume that he is the right James
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I didn't realise that the name Harradine derives from the hamlet of Harrowden in nearby Cardington. You live and learn!
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Hi All
Thanks for the replies, sorry if I asked too many questions at the same time. The 1841 census that I saw on Ancestry quotes Elizabeth being born about 1782 in Bedfordshire, where did you find the info that Elizabeth was not born in Beds or am I missing something? As for James' birth, there is a IGI record for James, birth 23 June 1783 in Old Warden and this the only James I could find on cd's I have from the Bedfordshire Family History Society being born in that year which is also his birth year on the 1841 census. Also from the IGI records I have a family group record which lists James born at this time as one of the children of James Harradine (b 1751) and his wife Elizabeth, along with Charlotte and Jane born in Old Warden and Samuel born in Southill. I know this is not proof which is why I was asking if anyone could confirm the details. There may be someone who has also researched this part of the Harradine family.
As for James and Elizabeth deaths, I have their death certificates. Elizabeth died 6 April 1847 in St Georges Hospital , London and was buried 11 April 1847 in Southill. James died 15 Feb 1853 at 17 Kinnerton Street, London with his daughter Mary Ann Harradine in attendance and was buried 20 Feb 1853 in Southill. Like you David, I couldn't find James on the 1851 census.
I haven't come across an Ann Harradine in my searching but as James is my 4 x great grandfather, there could be some connection.
Lesley
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I can't see James born c 1783 in 1851 either, but will keep looking
I take it this is his son?
2 Kinnerton St, St Georges Hanover Sq
Jas Harradine Head Mar 38 Stable servant Southill Beds
Mary A Harradine Wife 43 Cosham, Wilts
+ 6 children
HO107/1477/56 Pg42
Jan
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Whilst the 1841 scan on Ancestry isn't the best I've ever seen, it's clearly a "N" for Not born in county against Elizabeth Harradine, and to reinforce it the enumerator has marked each N on the page with an E, presumably standing for England. I've checked my CDRom set which is perfectly legible and it's even clearer as a N.
I think the informant at James' death must have been his daughter in law, rather than his daughter. His son James' wife was Mary Ann in 1851, and I can see no baptism of a daughter Mary Ann.
I've been going through the Southill and Old Warden baptisms today, and it looks to me as though there were two families in Old Warden:
- John Harradine who married Ann Armstrong of Langford on 23 Oct 1776, and baptised a number of children in Old Warden until there was a Samuel baptised in Southill in 1795
- James who married Elizabeth Mardelen in 1770, who baptised just two children in Old Warden before baptising a Samuel in Southill in 1788
These look to be the two Harradine families living in Southill in the 1801 census, and Frances who married Robert Isherwood was presumably an unbaptised daughter of James and Elizabeth, a sister of your James.
It would be nice to find James in 1851 to provide a link to Old Warden, but I'm happy with what evidence there is to show he's the 1783 Old Warden James.
David
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Thanks David, As you say the 1841 census is not that clear and I did miss the "n". If as you think the E stands for not England, it would seem I won't get much further with James' wife Elizabeth
Lesley
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The E is in the column reserved for I Ireland, S Scotland, and F Foreign parts. The enumerator has put E which I think is England - ie not born in Beds but born somewhere else in England. Which makes it very difficult to trace her! She could have come from anywhere in England (except Beds!).
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Let's look at the previous generation of your Harradine family: the parents of James baptised 1783 in Old Warden:
James' parents James and Elizabeth Harradine. James born 31/03/1751 in Sandy. I found a marriage to Elizabeth Mardelden on 10 Oct 1770 in Old Warden, but haven't found any records of a birth for her. Possible death for James 22 Aug 1813 in Sandy and Elizabeth 4 April 1817 in Southill.
I agree that James was the son of James Harradine and Elizabeth Mardelen who married in Old Warden on 10 Oct 1770. Both were otp, but neither of them appear to have been baptised in Old Warden. You suggest that James sen may have been buried in Sandy in 1813 (aged 64). Knowing how inaccurate burial ages can be, this could easily be the James baptised in 1751. But in that case who is the James buried in Southill in 1820 aged 77? Which I suppose is a roundabout way of saying that I remain to be convinced that it was James from Sandy who married in Old Warden and who then lived in Southill, rather than a slightly older unbaptised James Harradine. I can find no marriage of a James Harradine in Sandy, nor any children baptised there where James was the father. Definitely need to see the two burial entries to see if any other information is given. In any event it shows there was a James living in Southill after 1813 whose baptism I can't find.
Samuel Whitbread of Southill was the local magistrate, and he kept detailed notes of cases brought to him. 7 Sep 1811 "Mary Green of Southill to complain of William Smith. Speak to James Harradine and send Smith to Warden". The editor notes "James Harradine was SW's fellow overseer at Southill 1811". So James Harradine, presumably senior, was living in Southill in 1811.
And who Elizabeth Mardelen was I haven't a clue. It's the only instance I can find in Beds of that name. Mardell was much more prevalent, but mainly in the south of the county and none around the Old Warden parishes.
Still working on them!
David
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James Harradine baptised 31 Mar 1751 at Sandy was son of Isaac Harradine & Elizabeth Shelton who married there on 16 Oct 1749. They also baptised son William on 9 Feb 1752 & he was buried on 26 Mar 1752, just after Elizabeth wife of Isaac Harradine was buried on 20 Feb 1752.
There is no further mention of this James at Sandy up to 1812.
The Sandy parish records up to 1812 are transcribed on FreeReg
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Thanks for the reminder that Sandy pre 1813 is on FreeReg, John. I often overlook that, knowing that all Beds pre 1813 is on the IGI.
With only one baptism in Beds that fits, I'd have gone along with Lesley's idea that James was from Sandy, a mere 5 miles from Old Warden, (with the slight reservation as to why, having left Sandy at 19 and having lived in Old Warden and Southill all his adult life, he should have been buried back in Sandy), were it not for one awkward fact. The James who was buried in Southill in 1820 aged 77, for whom I can't find a baptism, is the fly in the ointment. Two baptisms and only one burial I can handle, but two burials and only one baptism sets off warning bells. Playing devil's advocate, until James in 1820 can be explained I'm questioning that the marriage in Old Warden was James from Sandy. In fact, I think it may have been/probably was the unbaptised James.
There, my neck is well and truly stuck out!
David
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Beds Poor Law Papers Index throw up a couple of Harradine of Southill entries (which can be found on the Beds Archives database as Haradine)
Ref P69/13/1/76
Settlement Certificate: Jas. Haradine, w. Eliz., Frances (7yrs), James (2yrs), Warden
Dated 3 Dec 1785
Ref P69/13/1/78
Settlement Certificate: John Haradine, w. Ann, chn. Sarah (11yrs), Geo. (5yrs), Eliz. (3yrs), Samuel (1 month). Warden
Dated 1 Oct 1790
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Excellent! Thanks John.
That confirms that Frances (unbaptised) who married Robert Isherwood in 1799, and James who Lesley is tracking, were children of James from Old Warden, which is the link we've been looking for.
And my theory, which I'm working on at this very moment, is that John who moved from Old Warden to Southill five years after James, is probably related to James, brother perhaps. Without a baptism, and with no Harradine wills at BLARS, it's not going to be easy!
Somehow this lot are connected to my 4xg grandmother Ann Harradine b Southill 1765, I just don't know how!
David
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Hello, I've been at work all week so this the first time I have logged on. I see a lot of information which is great.
David - I may be repeating something that has already been said, but I found a IGI record for James and Elizabeth Harradine or Harding showing a birth of James about 1751 of Bedford and spouse Mrs Elizabeth Harradine. When I looked at the family it shows James birth about 1751 of Bedford and Elizabeth about 1755 of Bedford. On checking the cd's I have from the beds family history society the only birth in 1751 I found was Jas Harodine, christened 31/03/1751, Sandy, son of Isaac and Eliz, so I thought this was my James (father of James b1783 in Old Warden). I also found the following children:-
Charlotte Harraden, 23/06/17771 Old Warden, parents James & Elizabeth
Jane Harradine, 21/11/1179 Old Warden, parents James & Elizabeth
James Harradine 22/06/1783 Old Warden, parents James & Elizabeth
Samuel Harradine, 01/06/1788 Southill, parents James & Elizabeth
This was my link for the Sandy/Old Warden connection. I then found the birth of Isaac Harradine in 1732 in Sandy and thought this could be James' father. My findings about Isaac tie up what John has said. This was why I thought that James who was buried in Sandy 1813 was the same James. I haven't found a John as a possible brother to James, but maybe some other relative.
I have also looked at FreeREg and although I found some marriage records, I couldn't find birth records.
Hope this makes sense
Lesley
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From the Monumental Inscriptions of All Saints Southill surveyed about 1916 by A Weight Matthews and transcribed by Beds FHS in 2004.....
B057 Headstone : In memory of Elizabeth Harradine wife of James Harradine who died April 7th 1847 aged 68 years ......... Also James Harradine who died Febry 15th 1853 aged 73 years.
B058 Headstone : In memory of Hannah Harradine daughter of James & Elizabeth Harradine and many years the faithful servant of W H Whitbread Esqr of Southill who suddenly departed this life June 18th 1855 aged 35 years. (**)
C076 Headstone : This stone is affectionately erected in memory of Susan Harradine secord daughter of William & Susan Harradine who died Dec 6th 1841 aged 6 years.
(**) In 1851 at Southill Park living with other servants is Hannah Harradine unmarried aged 28 born Southill, laundry maid. In same household is Mary Harradine unmarried aged 40 born Sandy, housemaid
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Regarding Charlotte Harradine, Beds Archives database has an interesting entry ref QSR/30/1829/87 Indictments & presentments - for Hezekiah Albone, Southill, labourer - obscene exposure intending to insult Charlotte Harradine, Southill, spinster
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Hello John, thanks for that. I had seen the monumental inscription for James and Elizabeth 1847 & 1853. They both died in London and appear to have been bought back to Southill for burial. Also for their daughter Hannah.
Interesting fact about Charlotte. I have noticed that quite a few of the Harradine females remain unmarried, I wonder why?
Lesley
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Hi Lesley
I fully follow your thought processes so far as James senior is concerned. I don't dispute your findings regarding the ancestors of James who was baptised in 1751. It's just that there's a disconnect and I have grave doubts that he was the James who married in Old Warden
There are various databases on the LDS site. The only one that is reliable is Community Indexed IGI. All the rest are member submissions (which is the one you're talking about) or member trees which vary in quality from well researched to pure fiction. Any entry which says "about 1751" means that whoever put the entry on the site doesn't know when or where the event took place and it's a guess. In this case whoever put those entries on the LDS site simply didn't know. Like all online trees they're useful as a guide only. You assumed that whoever put the entry there had done some research and having found the baptism in Sandy you thought you'd found the answer. It may still be the right answer but I have doubts.
There's no evidence that James who married in 1770 in Old Warden was the James baptised in 1751 in Sandy, although, given the proximity of the two parishes and the fact that there's no other baptism that fits, it would be a reasonable assumption to make. But as I said, a red flag is raised as there are two burials of a James Harradine: one in Sandy which looks suspiciously like the James baptised in 1751 in Sandy, and the other in Southill which is where the James who is your centre of interest was last known to be living.
As with so many events pre 1837, it comes down to the balance of probabilities. My gut feeling is that your James isn't the one from Sandy, but I can't prove that it wasn't. But I can say, with confidence, that there's a spare James in Southill for whom there's no baptism in Beds. And I'm working on the two Harradine families who lived in Old Warden and Southill from 1770 to 1790.
David
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Hi David
I know this is not proof either, but checking for Frances Harradine on Ancestry.co a family tree comes up. The tree has James (B1751 in Sandy as her father and Elizabeth Mardelden/Maudlin as her mother. It lists James (B1783 as her brother and it also has a first marriage for James to Rebecca Sarl, something which Jan mentioned, and a second marriage to Elizabeth Cox.
The tree has James father as Isaac (b1732, d1782 in Sandy) and his mother as Elizabeth Shelton, marriage 1749.
Isaac father is listed as Isaac (b1710 in Sandy) and mother Elizabeth.
I know the tree holder could have got their information from the same sources as me and it doesn't help that all the James' and Isaacs' married Elizabeths' which makes it more difficult to confirm who is who, but I thought I'd just let you know what else I found.
Lesley
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Hi Lesley
I really place little credence on what other people put in their online trees. I suspect that all online trees and member submissions on the IGI have fallen into the same trap so far as this family is concerned - as there's only one baptism of a James Harradine in Beds at anything like the right time they've all assumed he must be the right one. But he wasn't the only James Harradine living in Beds at the right time - there were two - one living in Sandy, the other living in Southill, as is clear from the two burials. So one of them, in all likelihood the one who was buried in Southill, was either not baptised or came from out of county
Who the James from Sandy's parents and ancestors were is totally irrelevant if he's not the James who married in Old Warden, and I don't think he was. I think you may have been researching someone else's ancestors.
It was me who pointed out that James junior had married twice and his first marriage was to Rebecca.
I was in touch a few days ago with the owner of the tree with Frances Harradine in it. It was just an assumption on his part that Frances was the daughter of James and Elizabeth - I gave him the information that John found from the Settlement Certificate, which proved that she really was their daughter.
David
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The burial record of James Harrodine at Southill on 1 June 1820 age 77 has his abode at Cardington.
Now I'm suggesting that he is the father of Samuel Harradine who married Elizabeth Bonast of Old Warden by licence on 28 Apr 1811 at Cardington. There they baptised son William Bonast on 15 Mar 1812 and daughters Ann and Elizabeth on 17 Sep 1815. These then went on to live in Haynes as on 1841 census living there is Samuel & Elizabeth & children Ann 1817, John 1821, Mary Ann 1826 & Benjamin 1828. They also baptised son Samuel born 1819 at Haynes in 1840 (as per IGI) and he is buried at Haynes on 27/1/1848 aged 28. William Bonest Harradine married Susan Frost at Cardington on 26 Oct 1832, one witness was Ann Harradine his sister perhaps. Father Samuel was buried at Haynes age 60 on 9 May 1848. That makes him born 1788 so is he the Samuel baptised at Southill on 1 June 1788 son of our James & Elizabeth who also baptised James 1783, Charlotte 1771 & Jane 1779.
The other James Harridine buried 22/8/1813 age 64 at Sandy has his abode as Sandy.
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Brilliant! Thanks John, my interpretation is the same as yours, James was either staying with his son Samuel in Cotton End, Cardington, or else he was living there full time. Samuel died in 1848 but in 1851 in Haynes his son Benjamin born 1827 gave Cotton End as his birthplace, so Samuel and family were certainly living there in 1820 when James died. And this is the James whose son James was born in Old Warden in 1783.
Unfortunately it doesn't get us any closer to establishing where he was from! I'm slowly putting all of these Harradines in my Ancestry database - Cooper/Faulkner/Merrill/Surkitt from Beds Cambs & Hunts - in an attempt to see if any patterns emerge. All I've established so far is that the Sandy bunch had their own names - Isaac particularly - which had been used in successive generations from the late 1600s, yet the Old Warden/Southill crew didn't use Isaac at all. The two Old Warden families used the bog standard John, James, Samuel, Richard which were also used by a family in Yelling Hunts, 18 miles away. I'm sure that with a bit more digging and a vast amount of luck I'll find a link between my 4xg grandmother Ann Harradine, and the James Harradine whose death and burial you've just clarified.
Thanks again
David
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Whilst at Beds Archives today I looked out the 2 Old Warden settlement certificates :-
There was no further information as to the Harradine families; however as well as naming the church wardens & Overseers of the Poor for each it has signatures of those who attested ---
for James in Dec 1785 they were James Fields? & John Marillin/Mardlin **
for John in Oct 1790 they were Ebenezer Green & Edward Manywheather
** John Mardlin he may be father or son re. the John baptised 27/10/1754 at Old Warden, son of John & Mary Madlen/Maudlen/Madling/Madeling and most likely related to Elizabeth Mardelen/Mardilin who married James Harrodine on Oct 1770. A John Madlen was buried at Old Warden 17/6/1807
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Thanks John. There are spelling variations here that I hadn't considered, and which aren't picked up by Soundex on the IGI
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David; you have Southill transcripts? did you notice an entry at back of register as so :-
"Five pounds being the legacy of Mr Kelynge of Ampthill was distributed in bread to the following poor of parish of Southill on St Thomas' day 1753"
...... includes John Harrodine & wife, 4 in family
Do you know who these are ?
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Thinking out loud here!
I'm zooming in on a Harradine family in Southill where the baptism evidence is a bit sparse:
It was triggered by a note in the back of the parish register: John Harradine, W (widower?), 4 in family, one of c100 poor of the parish of Southill, received bread under the Kelyng legacy on St Thomas day (21 Dec) 1753. Who was he and who were his 3 children*, at least two of whose baptisms elude me (14 Oct 1753 bap Elizabeth d of John & blank may be one of them)? Might the two missing children be James and John who both married in Old Warden? Was he the John bap 1722 son of John & Sarah? And where's his marriage and burial of his wife in 1753?
Other entries which might pertain to this family:
John m Sarah Halfhead 2 Dec 1708.
John inf bur 1709/10.
John s of J & S bap 9 Sep 1722.
Sarah widow buried 1736.
25 Jul 1765 bap Ann d of John & Mary (my 4xg).
John lab bur 1778/9.
Eliz wife of John bur 1778/9 - where's the marriage?
Eliz single woman bur 1783 (the one bap in 1753?).
Missing:
- marriage of John bef 1750
- burial of John's wife bef 1753 but see PS
- baptisms of two of John's children bef 1753
- marriage of John & Mary bef 1765 (See PS. Might be the same pre 1750 wife)
- marriage of John and Elizabeth bef 1779
Might these be two different Johns, father and son? (in fact three if you include the John who m Sarah Halfhead (love the name!)
I can understand missing baptisms and even burials, but marriages usually took place in the established church, and almost invariably after 1754 unless they were Jewish or Quakers. There are no Harradines mentioned in Southill Baptist Church book.
All highly speculative, but you have to start somewhere!
David
4 mins after John. Ah! We were thinking in parallel! I've been working on this for the past hour or so! I took the W to mean widow as wife was spelt out in full in the first two entries. But you are probably right, which cuts down the number of missing entries. And reduces the number of children from three to two, if one of the 4 is his wife*.
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Hi John
Lesley has mentioned a death of Elizabeth Harradine at Southill on 4 Apr 1817, which I can see on http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=107680963 , yet I can't find it on the NBI on FindMyPast (my Cdrom has given up the ghost). Next time you're in the alternative office do you think you could have a look on Southill microfilm to see if you can find it, and if so what it says. If she's widow we're in trouble, but wife of James would be good!
Thanks very much
David
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That burial is not on my NBI disk .... interesting that the Findagrave entry says she was aged 68 years which is the age that Elizabeth Harradine (wife of James) was when she was buried 11 Apr 1847 so perhaps this user contributed entry is suspect.
But I will check next time I'm in Archives
Cheers John
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However, the NBI has an Elizabeth Harradine burial in Southill on 31 Mar 1825, aged 79.
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The Southill Parish Registers do not have an Elizabeth Harradine burial on 8 Apr 1817 -if FindaGrave is the only source of this then I suggest it is wrong. If it was sourced by the reading of a gravestone in 2013 (when it was added) then it could be misread. The MI for this grave was recorded c 1916 & has Elizabeth Harradine died April 7th 1847 age 68 & was buried 11 Apr 1847. She is of course the Elizabeth Cox who married James Harradine in 1812.
The other Elizabeth Harradine buried on 31 Mar 1825 age 79 has her abode as Cardington. She is the Elizabeth Mardelen who married James Harradine in 1770 who also had his abode as Cardington when he was buried at Southill in 1820 aged 77.
Thus James H was born c 1743 & wife Elizabeth born c 1746.
The question that's still unanswered is who is this James? Until there is any supporting evidence I am saying he is NOT the one born Sandy in 1751
Cheers John
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Thanks very much John. You didn't have to rush straight down the Archives - tomorrow would have done! I'll put a comment on the Findagrave page as it's downright misleading (later - edit submitted). But I think that what you found clarifies the position, and I agree with your conclusion.
Thanks again
David
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More thinking out loud, as I'm struggling with these Harradines, and I find it helps to put thoughts into writing.
We now think that James was born c1743, married in Old Warden in 1770, moved to Southill in 1785, died in Cardington in 1820 and was buried at Southill aged 77. Was he an unidentified/unbaptised son of John, whose marriage I can't find, who received a distribution of bread in Southill in 1753?
Then there's John who married by licence in Old Warden on 23 Oct 1776, not described as a widower so I assume he was a bachelor, moved to Southill in 1790, and whose burial after 1801 when he appeared in the census in Southill I can't positively identify. Did he move back to Old Warden where he was buried aged 86 in 1816? If so he's older than I thought. If it's not him, who was he? Not old enough to be the father of James though.*
The two of them seem to be of different social standing. James was an Overseer of the poor in Southill, and his children seem to have been relatively well to do, particularly the family of Samuel in Cardington. John's son Samuel moved back to Old Warden after marriage where he was an ag lab.
If anyone has any thoughts I'm in need of inspiration!
David
JP. This would inspire me: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-29549174
* Later: this John's first child was Richard, a twin who died very young, and six years later he baptised another Richard who also died young. Did he follow the traditional naming pattern which make John's father Richard?
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David, God only knows the answer to this !
Whilst at Archives last week I looked at the Harradine marriages which are on microfiche..
Old Warden 23 Oct 1776
John Harradine, otp, bachelor to Ann Armstrong of Langford, spinster
Witnesses Thomas Hoton & John Matthews
Old Warden 10 Oct 1770
James Harradine, bachelor to Elizabeth Mardilen/Mardelen spinster; both otp
Witnesses Edward Aspitall? & Richard Conbred?
Southill 18 Nov 1799
Richard Isherwood, bach, otp to Frances Harradine, spinster, otp
Witnesses Richard Mantel & John Daughton?
Southill 15 Mar 1812
James Harradine, widower, otp to Elizabeth Cox, spinster, otp
Witnesses John Wheeler & Sarah Wheeler
Although this was by licence the marriage allegation transcript has no further info other than that Elizabeth was aged over 21
I don't know if the names of witnesses give any clues, some I could not read clearly.
Cheers John
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Very good!
Interesting witness for James 1770 marriage, particularly as Edward Aspital married Sarah Harradine at Northill on 13 Dec 1768, both otp. Another lead to follow. The only Harradine event in Northill after 1660, unless the Hardings are a name variation. Thanks very much. I wonder who the witnesses were at Sarah's wedding.
David
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* Later: this John's first child was Richard, a twin who died very young, and six years later he baptised another Richard who also died young. Did he follow the traditional naming pattern which make John's father Richard?
Unless Richard was father of Ann Armstrong of Langford ?
Note .... but ... James & Elizabeth (ne Cox ?) Harradine also baptised a son Richard at Southill on 7 Dec 1823 & he was buried there 23 Nov 1824
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But traditionally the first male child would have been named after his paternal grandfather.
The number of Richards baptised to this family in Old Warden and Southill makes me think that there must have been Richards in earlier generations.
So now we have three Harradines from that area not baptised, at least not in Beds - John perhaps b c1730, James b c1743 and Sarah b c1750. Frustrating!
David
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Re. Edward Aspital who married Sarah Harradine at Northill in 1768. I suspect he may be son of Henry & Mary who baptised an Edward in 1749. There's an Admon of Henry Aspitall, blacksmith of Northill/Ickwell in 1768 so he might be the one buried 20/6/1767. Edward was buried 29/6/1795 (if I assume the Edward buried 3/5/1775 is son of another Henry & Mary baptised the previous year). Beds Archives' database has a marriage settlement ref SL1/122 dated 25/6/1796 that mentions "....cottage or blacksmiths shop, late in occupation of Edward Aspital deceased...". The NBI has burial of Sarah Aspital at Northill on 20 Nov 1822 aged 78 (so born c 1744)
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So Sarah was born at roughly the same time as James - 1742-44, which increases the odds of them being siblings. Where though?
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Try a new derivative of the name : such as Harding ?
Poor Law Index & Beds Archives has an entry ref P64/13/1b/7 dated 21/4/1701 Richard Harradine, carpenter wife & children, settlement at Potton from Moggerhanger.
There's an Admon for Richard Harrowden/Harradine of Potton, carpenter ref A 1716/29
However the NBI has burial at Potton dated 19 Apr 1716 in name of Richard HARDING
Blunham/Moggerhanger PR index groups Harro(w)dine with Hardin/g ?
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FindMyPast puts Harding as a variation of Harradine
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Hello
I've just logged in and can't believe the information you both have given. It will take me a while to digest it all, but I am starting to agree that I have been barking up the wrong tree thinking that the Sandy Harradine's were the same family as the James (born in on Old Warden) that I originally asked about and that the James Harradine who died in Southill is him after all. It seem that the lack of records runs in the family as I can't find a marriage record for my 2 x great grandmother Hannah (granddaughter of James b1783). I can't thank you enough for all the looking up you are doing, I'm finding it very interesting.
Lesley
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.... as I can't find a marriage record for my 2 x great grandmother Hannah (granddaughter of James b1783).
OK Lesley, Tell us more about this Hannah, who were her parents, when was she born, who did she marry & when/where was this - if you know ?
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John, she may have been aged 9 in 1861 born Shrivenham, Berks dau of George b 1817 Southill and Elizabeth b 1826 Hants. It looks as though George married Elizabeth Grandy at St Martin in the Fields in the Mar quarter 1851. George was a servant for a viscount in Marylebone in the 1851 census.
An online tree shows Hannah marrying Richard Winser in Dover in 1872, then George Muddle in Dover in 1885 (which confused me!), then Albert Smallman in Guildford in 1899, before dying back in Dover in 1956*. Haven't checked it out in detail but it looks OK.
If this is the right Hannah, Lesley, which marriage are you looking for?
George Richard Muddle m Annie Winser in Dover in the Dec quarter 1885 vol 2a page 1748
I can't see the marriage to Winser, so I take it that this is the one you can't find? As in 1881 their eldest child was born in Maidstone I wonder if Dover is the correct marriage place.
David
* Sunday morning This looks iffy. More likely Annie Smallman age 76 in Dover Dec 1929
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I can't see a marriage of a James Harradine and Rebecca in Beds but there is a marriage in St Olave, Southwark on 29 Jul 1807 between James Harredine and Rebecca Sarl, and there's a baptism of a Rebecca Sarl in Southill on 9 Feb 1783 daughter of William and Jane Sarl, carpenter. Not proof though!
The proof, or as near to proof as you're likely to find, is supplied at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01bl0/ "By special licence, Harradine esq of Southhill Bedfordshire to Miss Searle of the same place." (The Monthly Magazine or British Register vol 24 1807)
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I'm finding it very interesting.
So am I! Particularly as it impacts on Ann Harradine my ancestor who is also a mystery. But JP's the one doing the hard work, running down to the Archives every other day - thanks John!
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The proof, or as near to proof as you're likely to find, is supplied at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01bl0/ "By special licence, Harradine esq of Southhill Bedfordshire to Miss Searle of the same place." (The Monthly Magazine or British Register vol 24 1807)
Good find David, being an esquire means he had a good status in society as you've mentioned before
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Hi, yes this the correct Hannah. She was born 1852 in Shrivenham, Berks. Her parents were George Harradine and Elizabeth Grandy who married 21/03/1851 in St Martins in the Field. George was born 1817 in Southill, son of James Harradine and Elizabeth Cox. He sadly committed suicide in 1875 by drowning himself in the Grand Junction Canal, Kensal Green, Kengsington, whilst of unsound mind. Elizabeth was born 1825 in Christchurch, Hampshire and died 14/02/1888 at 105 Church Road, Battersea.
Hannah's first husband was Richard Winser (see 1881 census) and this the marriage I can't find. She is on the 1871 census as Hannah Hanadine in London. Her daughter was born 1873 in Maidstone, Kent. Her birth cert lists the father as Richard Harradine and mother Hannah Winser. The other 3 children were born in Dover. Richard died 11/12/1883 in Dover.
Hannah then married George Richard Muddle 10/10/1885 in Dover and had 3 more children. George died 1897 in Dover.
Hannah then married Albert Smallman 17/10/1899 in Guildford and she died 20/11/1929 in Dover.
The 1881 census is the only census Richard appears on, giving his birth in Tenterden, Kent about 1840. There is no birth record for him, but there was a couple of Winser families in Tenterden at that time and a birth record of George Winser in 1840. George appears on census records until 1871 and then disappears. A record was found of a christening for Rachel and Mary Ann Winser in 1857 in New Romney, parents Richard Winser and Mary Ann. George was living in New Romney around that time. Could Richard really be George? We are still looking for a connection.
Lesley
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Richard Winser was said to be 45 on death in Dec 1883, putting his birth back to 1838 if the age is accurate. There's a birth of an unnamed Male Winser in Tenterden in the March quarter 1838. I'd be tempted to get this birth cert to see who the parents were to increase the chances of tracing them in censuses
David
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Her daughter was born 1873 in Maidstone, Kent. Her birth cert lists the father as Richard Harradine and mother Hannah Winser.
Is this the birth of Anne Haradine in the Dec quarter 1873 in Maidstone? It looks to be either a deliberate cover up or else an administrative shambles!
When Annie Winser married Thomas Tee in 1894 she named her father as George William Winser. What was going on? Do you have her marriage cert for her second marriage to Christopher Murray?*
David
* later I see from one of your postings back in Feb 2010 you said his eldest daughter's second marriage named her father as Edward. You also said he was named as Richard in all other marriages of his children. Which he clearly wasn't, per above!
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...... particularly as Edward Aspital married Sarah Harradine at Northill on 13 Dec 1768, both otp.
I wonder who the witnesses were at Sarah's wedding.
They were Stephen Adams & William Chiles?
Don't know if they're any help
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Thanks John. I was hoping for a Harradine!
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Try a new derivative of the name : such as Harding ?
Poor Law Index & Beds Archives has an entry ref P64/13/1b/7 dated 21/4/1701 Richard Harradine, carpenter wife & children, settlement at Potton from Moggerhanger.
There's an Admon for Richard Harrowden/Harradine of Potton, carpenter ref A 1716/29
However the NBI has burial at Potton dated 19 Apr 1716 in name of Richard HARDING
Blunham/Moggerhanger PR index groups Harro(w)dine with Hardin/g ?
John - I think you may just have found me an ancestor!!
I have a great x7 grandmother Mary Harradine, who married Richard Richardson in Potton on 29 March 1730. Richard Richardson was a basketmaker, and the first known recipient of an apprenticeship paid for by the John Snitch charity (he also happened to be a nephew of John Snitch ... and was apprenticed to his own father, as this had not yet been made illegal).
So far, I have not managed to find anything at all on Mary Harradine prior to her marriage ... but I think there is a strong possibility that she may either have been one of the children of Richard Harradine settled at Potton from Moggerhanger in 1701, or have been a further child of his born after 1701 (I have penciled her birth in as "circa 1705").
I have no baptism for her as yet, but I'll keep looking for one ... although it does look as though not all Harradine children were baptized.
I don't want to derail this thread, however ... so I shall start a further thread to discuss this possibility.
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Try a new derivative of the name : such as Harding ?
Poor Law Index & Beds Archives has an entry ref P64/13/1b/7 dated 21/4/1701 Richard Harradine, carpenter wife & children, settlement at Potton from Moggerhanger.
There's an Admon for Richard Harrowden/Harradine of Potton, carpenter ref A 1716/29
However the NBI has burial at Potton dated 19 Apr 1716 in name of Richard HARDING
Blunham/Moggerhanger PR index groups Harro(w)dine with Hardin/g ?
Potton PR transcript describes the 1716 burial as Richard Harding, carpenter, so I'm pretty sure Harding/Harradine is the same person.
Whilst Soundex on the IGI doesn't include Harding as a variation of Harradine, FindMyPast does. And there are numerous Hardin(g) baptisms in Potton, including Sarah on 11 Nov 1705, dau of Richard and Sarah, carpenter
Odd that whilst the Settlement Cert mentions children I can't find baptisms of any children other than the one in Potton which was later.
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Morning.... I had a look at that Settlement certificate at the archives on Monday....
To Overseers of Poor of Potton..... This is to certify that we the Overseers of Muggerhanger acknowledge that Richard Harradine, carpenter to be an inhabitant legally settled in Muggerhanger and we will receive him, his wife & children if he shall have any.....
Sealed & delivered in presence of Mathew HARADON, Edward Hill & Humprey Tommas? plus the Overseers.
So he may not have a wife & children - they were just covering themselves?
Cheers John
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..... more.... the Admon regarding Richard Harradine, carpenter of Potton dated 27 Apr 1716 states that Sarah Harradine of Potton, George Pedley, maltster? & John Trulove, victualler swear on oath that she Sarah Harradine is the relict of Richard Harradine, late of Potton
Now find the marriage of Richard to Sarah ?
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Morning.... I had a look at that Settlement certificate at the archives on Monday....
To Overseers of Poor of Potton..... This is to certify that we the Overseers of Muggerhanger acknowledge that Richard Harradine, carpenter to be an inhabitant legally settled in Muggerhanger and we will receive him, his wife & children if he shall have any.....
Sealed & delivered in presence of Mathew HARADON, Edward Hill & Humprey Tommas? plus the Overseers.
So he may not have a wife & children - they were just covering themselves?
Cheers John
Thanks John, just shows you should always look at the original, not a brief description. That makes a lot of difference, and would explain why I haven't found any baptisms! Doesn't explain why I can't find the marriage though!
David
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Richard Winser was said to be 45 on death in Dec 1883, putting his birth back to 1838 if the age is accurate. There's a birth of an unnamed Male Winser in Tenterden in the March quarter 1838. I'd be tempted to get this birth cert to see who the parents were to increase the chances of tracing them in censuses
David
Hi David, I had already ordered this birth certificate, which is for James Winser b 2nd Jan 1838. Don't know why it comes up as unknown male, the certificate is clear enough. His parents were one of the two Winser families in Tenterden at that time.
Ref Annie Harradine, yes she was born 5th Oct 1873 in Maidstone and yes I have her second marriage cert. This shows her father as Edward Windsor. I also have the birth and wedding certs of the other children which all have the father as Richard Winser.
Through researching I met Annie's great granddaughter from her marriage to Charles Murray. The family stayed in Dover and last year my husband and I went to Dover to meet her and to see where my great grandmother and Nan were born. Between us we have spent a lot of time trying to solve the mystery of Richard. As she lives in Dover she is able to go to various record offices but so far nothing to tell us who is really is. Maybe a puzzle that will never be solved. Perhaps like some of the Harradines he wasn't baptised. Maybe my 2xgreat grandmother and Richard were not married.
Lesley
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Thanks John, just shows you should always look at the original, not a brief description. That makes a lot of difference, and would explain why I haven't found any baptisms! Doesn't explain why I can't find the marriage though!
How about marriage in Potton on 3 May 1700 of Richard HEDING/HARDIN of Blunham, joiner to Sarah Day of Potton.
Baptisms then follow :-
6 Apr 1701 John, son of Richard & Sarah Arding
11 Nov 1705 Sarah, daughter of Richard & Sarah Harding, carpenter
3 Jul 1709 Richard or Joseph and Robert, sons of Richard & Sarah Arding/Hardin
Cheers John
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Thanks again John. Glad you're there to keep me on the straight and narrow. These name variations are beginning to do my headin/heding/hardin/harrad in!