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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: maid in the mist on Saturday 20 September 14 14:54 BST (UK)
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Looking for a birth for a Margaret Norman between 1854 and 1855 in Wishaw, Lanarkshire Father was John Norman.
Thank you.
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I just had a very quick look and I can't easily see her birth on Scotland's People nor can I see her on the 1861 Scottish census.
Where did you get her name, date of birth, and father's name from?
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Thanks for taking the time to look for a birth for my Great Grandmother Margaret Norman. In the 1861 census and onwards she is living in Newcastle upon Tyne England, on all the census her year of birth is listed as 1855 and born in Wishaw Scotland. Father John and Mother Jane. I gave the benefit of the doubt as her year of birth to be one year either way. Margarets mother was born in Wishaw Scotland too, her Father was born in England, Margaret was their eldest child, her siblings were all born in England. Is there a possibility there might be a baptism record for her in Wishaw or any surrounding parish?
I really appreciate your help and thanks again.
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Do you know when they were married? It is always a possibility that Margaret was born before their marriage and is registered under her mother's maiden name. That is if she was born in 1855. If she was born in 1854, before statutory registration, there may be no record. If there is a record of her baptism in 1854, the father would likely be named.
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Thanks for taking the time to look for a birth for my Great Grandmother Margaret Norman. In the 1861 census and onwards she is living in Newcastle upon Tyne England, on all the census her year of birth is listed as 1855 and born in Wishaw Scotland.
Are you viewing the census transcriptions? Because the census never lists a date of birth. It gives the person's age on the day of the census, or at least what they say their age is.
I had a look at the original of the 1861 census, and it gives Margaret's age as 8. The 1851 census was taken on 30 March 1851. So (assuming that Margaret's parents gave her age accurately) this would mean she was born between 31 March 1852 and 30 March 1853.
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Thanks again for your reply. Although the 1861 and the 1871 Census does indicate Margarets birth year as being 1853,
On the 1881 census she is 26, (birth year 1855)
In 1891 she is 35, (birth year 1856)
In 1901 she is 48, (birth year 1853)
In 1911 she is 57, (birth year 1854)
I have her marriage certificate to a Charles Wright they were married in 1876 and she states her age as 21, (birth year 1855) and on her death certificate in 1920 she is 65, (birth year 1855)
Perhaps you are correct in assuming she was born before 1855.
On some of the census her Mothers name is Jane on another census her Mother's name is Ann. I personally think Jane is correct. If you could find a birth record for Margaret would her Mother's
name be recorded?
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On the 1881 census she is 26, (birth year 1855)
No. The birth year would be either 1854 or 1855
In 1891 she is 35, (birth year 1856)
1855 or 1856
In 1901 she is 48, (birth year 1853)
1852 of 1853
In 1911 she is 57, (birth year 1854)
1853 or 1854
I have her marriage certificate to a Charles Wright they were married in 1876 and she states her age as 21, (birth year 1855)
1854 or 1855
and on her death certificate in 1920 she is 65, (birth year 1855)
1854 or 1855
Perhaps you are correct in assuming she was born before 1855
I am assuming nothing. Merely pointing out that any age is always the age a person was (or believed themselves to be, or claimed to be) on a specific day, and that they may not have actually had their birthday yet in that year.
The census is usually taken about a quarter of the way into the calendar year, about the end of March. So anyone whose birthday is later than this will not have had their birthday in that year. So 'calculating' a year of birth by subtracting the stated age from the year of the census gives a wrong result in three out of four cases.
Apart from the 1891 census, it does look as if she is likely to have been born before the critical date, 1 January 1855, when statutory registration began.
On some of the census her Mothers name is Jane on another census her Mother's name is Ann. I personally think Jane is correct.
Have you viewed the originals of all the census to make sure that you have personally trancribed all the details? Sometimes transcribers make mistakes, but then so do enumerators and the people who provided the information in the first place.
Or could it perhaps be that her mother Jane died and her father married an Ann?
If you could find a birth record for Margaret would her Mother's name be recorded?
Normally, yes, baptism records in Scotland in the 1850s do include the mother's name and maiden surname. They may or may not state the date of birth.
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Thanks for your reply,
I didn't mean this to become so complicated but I really do appreciate your information and your time.
I have looked closely at the Census transcriptions and I do realize that the information recorded is not always 100% correct in the recorded ages and names. I did find a burial record for who I think was Margarets mother who died in 1883 in Featherstone Yorkshire, England, her name was recorded as Jane, her age of death ties in with her approximate year of birth according to census returns and on the 1881 census she was living in that same location with her husband and Margarets younger siblings. So yes I do think Jane and Ann are the same person and the enumerator may have thought Jane sounded like Ann.
I did not know that statutory registration in Scotland began in January 1855 so it's very possible that Margaret was born before that date and her birth may have been recorded in parish registers.
Do you have access to the parish registers?
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Do you have access to the parish registers?
I have the same access as you do - via www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - unless I go to Edinburgh or to a local library which happens to have a microfilm of the parish register. Wishaw, by the way, is in the parish of Cambusnethan, so if you want to try the parish register, that's the one to go for.
However between 1850 and 1854 there are no baptisms of Normans in Cambusnethan, no baptisms of female Normans anywhere in Scotland, and only three male Normans, according to the index at Scotland's People, so it is unlikely to produce the information you are looking for.
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Unfortunately I don't have access to Scotlands People and I live in Canada so I can't visit a library in Scotland but I do appreciate the information you have given me over the past few days and I thank you greatly for your time and effort. Good luck in your own research.
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Unfortunately I don't have access to Scotlands People
Why not? It costs nothing to register and you can do some searching in the indexes free of charge. You only need to pay if you want to view the results.
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Oh! I didn't know that I could register and search for free, I thought a subscription would have to be bought. Thanks, I will give it a try.
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Can you provide her mothers maiden name ?
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Hi, Thanks for your message, I believe Margarets Mothers maiden name was either Webster or Brown.
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Hi ,
Can you give us the full names of Margaret's siblings ? Names can give clues to grandparents.
I do wonder like previous poster if Margaret was born out of wedlock.
Looby ;)
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You don't mention the religion of this family? Norman, in my opinion, is not a Scottish surname. England is the obvious origin, so the family, whilst living in Scotland may have worshiped in the Episcopalian Church or, they may have been Catholic.
The burial records for Cambusnethan cemetery in Wishaw have only one mention of the surname Norman. The entry is for a burial in common Ground.
HUGH McMENEMY. Labourer, Wishaw, aged 38 years, married.
Parents - John McMenemy and Margaret Norman.
Buried 10th January 1874.
If the age is correct, Hugh would have been born about 1835. his mother would have to have been born around 1818 at least. Could she have been a paternal aunt of your Margaret.
McMenemy is an Irish surname, I wonder if Norman could originate there as well?
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Very wide distribution of the surname Norman(which is English):
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx
Closest distribution of the surname to Scotland is Cumberland.
Oddly there is a surname Normand which is Scottish according to the above site.
(obviously to be used as a rough guide only)
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I've just checked my copy of Black's "The Surnames of Scotland". He lists Norman & Normand together, Norman seems to be found in Aberdeenshire and Dumfriesshire, also Roxburgh and Berwick which makes more sense, being the Borders.
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Hi
According to the 1861 census John Norman was born Jarrow, Durham. I would get the birth certificate for Margarets younger brother Thomas as that would give her mothers maiden name as that may help to track down Margarets birth.
Andy
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Hi All :)
The Webster surname reference that you mention for Jane, is this connected to son Thomas' middle name. He shows as Thomas W Norman in 1861, born in Thornley, Durham circa 1858.
I wondered whether this was his birth reg (from here www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)
Births 3rd Quarter of 1857 - Thomas Welister (?Webster) Norman at Easington, Durham - Vol 10a/ pg. 282
There is a gap between the birth of Margaret and then Thomas. Wondered whether this could have been a sister who may have died before the 1861 census: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJQY-PJC with mother showing as likely having the maiden name of Webster. Where do you think Brown has come in to this all? Have you found something with the surname Brown to date?
For background to this post, two of the censuses:
1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V51S-T7J
1881 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQFT-G1V
Monica
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Again, to try to help with names, is this John Norman's family in the Jarrow area (all born in the County of Durham):
Cuthbert Norman 45, collier
Elizabeth Norman 40
Thomas Norman 15, collier
Robert Norman 11
Mary Norman 13...John Norman visiting his now married sister in 1851?
John Norman 9
Cuthbert Norman 4
Monica
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Hi Monica.
Long time no chat ;D
Was just about to post info from FREEbmd regarding Thomas Webster? Norman too.
His Brother Bengeman could be the child born in Newcastle T Dec 1863
NORMAN Benjamin Robinson Newcastle T. 10b 9
That middle name could be useful .
Looby :)
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Thanks everyone for your information and interest in my Norman family.
Margaret's father John Norman was born in Jarrow Co. Durham and his parents were Cuthbert Norman and Elizabeth Robinson so Monica is on the right track. I wasn't aware of another child Elizabeth born to John Norman who was born between Margaret and Thomas so thank you for that. I did think that Jane's maiden name may have been Webster because two of their children have the middle name of Webster. Another child was Benjamin Robinson Norman he was given the name Robinson after his Grandmother whose maiden name was Robinson.
I have been unable to find a marriage record for John Norman and a Jane Webster anywhere in England so I thought they may have married in Scotland since Margaret states her birth place as Scotland. However I did find a marriage record on FBMD for a John Norman to a possible Jane Brown in Tynemouth Northumberland Dec Q 1851 and after tracking down a Jane Brown on the 1851 census living in Tynemouth I find that she was born in Lanarkshire Scotland too so I wondered if Webster was the correct maiden name for Jane after all. but after seeing the record of Elizabeth's baptism and her Mother's name as Jane Webster Norman then Webster must be correct after all.
It would be a good idea though for me to purchase one of Margaret's siblings birth certificate to confirm Jane's maiden name. My next step would be to try and find a marriage record for John Norman and Jane Webster, and now I have come in a full circle, still trying to find a record of my Great Grandmother Margaret's birth.
Thanks again everyone for all your help, I am really impressed with the response.
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I think it is a given that you have to order one of the English born children's birth regs to confirm Jane's maiden name.
Don't want to be neg (my philosophy in genealogy is never say never never ;D) but I think you may struggle to find a Scottish marriage for John and wife Jane and sadly also a birth or christening for Margaret (who very much looks to me to have been born pre 1855 and the start of official registration in Scotland).
Only about a third of BMDs were registered in parish registers pre 1855 for all sorts of reasons (not sure what the equivalent % may be in England pre 1837). It may be that either the events of the marriage and/or Margaret's birth/christening were not registered at all...or registers have been lost or the family registered outside of the established Church of Scotland etc (Lodger I think has already mentioned this earlier).
The area of Cambusnethan is prime mining area, given the occupation of John Norman. Every reason for him to have spent some time after 1851 there working.
Closest I could see as a possible for Jane in 1851 was this entry:
Margaret Mckinnon 49 b. Shotts Lanarkshire
Charles Webster 23 coal miner b. Shotts Lanarkshire
Jane Webster 17 lace worker b. Shotts Lanarkshire
Euphemia Webster 14 lace worker b. Shotts Lanarkshire
John Webster 11 coal miner b. Shotts Lanarkshire
James Jack 40 lodger coal miner
Address: Wilsons Rows, Wishaw
From 1841 for this family, likely some children who show then have died and husband James Webster, a coal miner.
Not sure though how to prove this is the right family for Jane :-\
Monica
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I wouldn't rule out the John Norman - Jane Brown marriage that you have found just yet.
Looby :)
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Thanks Monica and Looby you have been very helpful.