RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: EXMOUTH on Monday 08 September 14 22:26 BST (UK)
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Would anyone be able to look up a Birth
Certificate for my Mother Caroline Mabel
Thomas born 19th January 1932?
Her parents were Mary ( nee Archibald) and
William James Thomas.
I believe she may have been born in Corrimal and
that her parents worked for James Packer
the Father of Kerry Packer.
What I'm really most interested in is an address
as I'm coming to Australia in November from the UK
and I'd love to be able to go to where my Mum
was born.
Hoping someone can help me with this !!
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We are unable to help you with this request. Birth information is restricted for 100 years in New South Wales. Information on certificates is not viewable online only on certificates or transcriptions of same. In NSW you are have the choice of purchasing a transcription [AUD20] or a certified certificates for births to 1913, marriages to 1963 and deaths to 1983. These events are classed as historical and available to anyone.
As your mother died in 1993 in the UK I suggest you contact the NSW bdm registry.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_bth/bdm_bct.html
This is her parents' marriage
9656/1930
THOMAS William
ARCHIBALD Mary
District Sydney
Cando
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You refer to your grandfather as Billy THOMAS a boxer in Australia. Did he have another occupation?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=460473.msg3294751#msg3294751
Cando
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How very sad - it appears her grandmother died a few days before she was born. Memoriam notice says Caroline Waller ARCHIBALD died 16th January 1932
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article142674704
(Was looking for a birth announcement)
regards,
Ros
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Just found an online tree - Caroline was Mary's stepmother Ros.
Cando
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Thanks Cando - so not quite as sad as I thought - well it depends on the relationship, could have been very distressing.
cheers,
Ros
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Thank you to everyone who has commented
on this.
I had completely forgotten about the 100 year rule!!
I will contact the NSW Records about obtaining a
Birth certificate but am unsure about how best
to obtain this as I'm in the UK- presumably I'd have to
provide some sort of legal document to prove who I am?
Ros- Caroline Waller was my Step Great- Grandmother
and this explains why my Mother was named
for her and not Christina who was Mary's Mother( my sister is
called Christina)
Billy Thomas also worked as a general Handyman
although on the passenger list to Australia he is listed as a Mining Engineer
and this is certainly what he returned to doing when the family went back to
Wales in 1934.
Mary was a cook/ Nursemaid and ,I believe, initially lived in
Balgowrie with her sister and brother Bill Sellars -Renwick who ran a bus company.
I have a copy of Billy & Mary's Marriage Certificate but it doesn't have addresses on it so may be
in shortened form and I visited St.James's Church last time I was in Sydney.
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Well I don't know about James Packer, but as/or could have been born in Corrimal I would assume that Her Dad was working in Coal Mining. Corrimal was the main Town for this south of Sydney.
You may get some joy from looking up the colliery records. A wild one ::)
Neil
Added:
http://www.illawarracoal.com/Timeline6.htm
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Thanks Neil Todd I'll have a look at that .
I'm not sure whether my Grandfather worked in
Mining in Australia or not but worth a try.
I have found some of his boxing records and know that this was the
main reason he came to Australia in 1929.
I have a very vague memory from seeing my Mother's Birth Certificate ( now sadly mislaid) that he's
listed as "General Labourer".
The connection with the Packet family seems to have been
quite established though as my Grandparents always spoke very fondly of them and Kerry Packer visited them several times when they returned to live in South Wales.
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From an online tree
On 8th December 1928 William went to Australia on board the Orsova to Sydney. He went as an amateur boxer and whilst on the ship met my Grandmother Mary who was emigrating from Scotland with her sister and stepsister. They married in Sydney in 1929 .
So Wm James THOMAS arrived in 1928, married in 1930 and left again in 1934.
Lots of mentions for Billy THOMAS, boxer on http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper
You could purchase a transcription of the full marriage certificate. I have given you the correct year and registration number in reply#1.
Transcription agents
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Cando
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Billy Thomas also worked as a general Handyman
although on the passenger list to Australia he is listed as a Mining Engineer
and this is certainly what he returned to doing when the family went back to
Wales in 1934.
her parents worked for James Packer the Father of Kerry Packer.
Frank PACKER was married in 1934 and among other interests, was a keen boxer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Packer
Kerry Packer visited them several times when they returned to live in South Wales.
Kerry PACKER was born in 1937.
Cando
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Thanks Cando that's really interesting and I'm now wondering
whether they knew each other through Boxing
Connections.
I'm also wondering whether an extended Marriage Certificate would definitely exist ?
I ordered the Marriage certificate from the Records office but it didn't state at the time that you could either get a shortened or extended version.
Would it be worth contacting the Archivist at St.James's Church to see whether they have a copy of the Marriage Register ?
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I don't understand a shortened or extended version of a 1934 marriage certificate from the NSW bdm registry. Any 1934 marriage transcriptions or certificates from NSW bdm should include
Bridge and groom's names, ages and birthplaces, status, occupations and addresses.
Parents' names including mothers' maiden names and fathers' occupations.
Cando
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Both Sir Frank Packer and Kerry Packer had an interest in boxing. From some of my family history Sir Frank was a long time friend of both of my uncle's Merv and Arthur who were both accomplished boxers. Kerry Packer was a very much Long time friend of my Cousin a son of Arthur and he acted as Kerry's personal trainer for many years.
Neil
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Thanks Neil Todd - My Grandfather ran a club for Boxers in
Bargoed South Wales and Kerry Packer gave them a Trophy
to be presented to the most promising youngster.
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8)Cando the certificate I have for William & Mary's marriage
on 5th August 1930 matches the reference number you've attached but
it doesn't include addresses for them.
It merely states that William's usual place of residence is Sydney
and Mary's is Balgownie.
Both Father's names and occupations are listed however although no occupation is listed for either William or Mary.
This is what makes me think this is a shortened version of the certificate- bit confused now !!
BTW do you happen to know whether on arrival in Sydney in 1929 you needed to have an address to go to ?- if so maybe I could look at passenger arrivals to see if that throws anything up .
Thanks for your help so far .
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Hello Cando,
Is it possible to look up the full record of my
Grandparents marriage on 5/8/1930?- ref : 1930/009656
I have what I now believe to be a transcription
only as it doesn't include addresses - very annoying
as I ordered this in the belief it would be a full certificate
but my mistake completely .
I've also found that the registers of marriages at
St.James church Sydney are available on microfiche at The Society of Australian Genealogists and
wondered whether this would also contain more information?
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8)Cando the certificate I have for William & Mary's marriage
on 5th August 1930 matches the reference number you've attached but
it doesn't include addresses for them.
It merely states that William's usual place of residence is Sydney
and Mary's is Balgownie.
Both Father's names and occupations are listed however although no occupation is listed for either William or Mary.
This is what makes me think this is a shortened version of the certificate- bit confused now !!
BTW do you happen to know whether on arrival in Sydney in 1929 you needed to have an address to go to ?- if so maybe I could look at passenger arrivals to see if that throws anything up .
Thanks for your help so far .
Hi there,
May I please ask for the details of where the marriage took place, and the name of the officiating minister/registrar as recorded on the transcription. It is possible that the "usual address" was recorded (by that person), noting only the "suburb" and not the street address at that time. The address "Sydney" in 1930 refers to the local government area of the "City of Sydney" which is quite a small geographical area around the Central Business District. St James is within the City of Sydney.
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for the reply JM.
The Marriage took place at St.James Church on
5th July 1930 and the officiating Minister is
recorded as John Fraser S.Russell.
The certificate is also signed by Deputy Registrar- AlexBaylis (?)
If I can I'll try to scan and attach a copy of the
certificate I have.
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Hi there,
Re the certificate you have .... is it a recently issued document, or is it one issued during the 20th century?
The official transcription agents can issue partial transcriptions or full ones, depending on what is ordered. The occupations of the bride and the groom should be recorded by the Rev'd, and I would expect these to be displayed on a full transcription.
Add, the name of the suburb for the usual residences for the bride and the groom would have been sufficient information in 1930 at that time. Some clergy provided more in depth info than others.
Cheers, JM
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The father of Kerry Packer was called Frank Packer.
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I have what I now believe to be a transcription
only as it doesn't include addresses - very annoying
as I ordered this in the belief it would be a full certificate
but my mistake completely .
I think you are barking up the wrong tree here with your concept that you are missing out on a "full address".
None of the marriage certificates I have include what you would normally consider to be a complete postal address. From an official point of view, it's not very relevant, as it is neither the location of the event, nor is it likely to be the place where the parties might be found after the event, as most people move as soon as they are married. From the clergyman's point of view, the traditional concern is whether they are "of this parish" or not, which goes back to ensuring they have been baptised, and a precaution against bigamy.
If the marriage certificate says he was from Sydney and she was from Balgownie ( which is correct, you mentioned Balgowrie in one of the other posts ), that is probably all the clergyman wrote down.
You are much more likely to get a proper address from your mother's birth certificate, which you will have no trouble obtaining as you are her daughter.
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BTW do you happen to know whether on arrival in Sydney in 1929 you needed to have an address to go to
I very much doubt it, that is a crazy idea the Americans have come up with recently.
I was almost deported from the US a few years ago because I did not know the street name or number or zipcode of the hotel I had a reservation to stay at - that's the taxi driver's job.
It's a world without fax, phone, or email, and even in the steam-ship era you won't know in advance exactly which day your ship will arrive.
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BTW do you happen to know whether on arrival in Sydney in 1929 you needed to have an address to go to
I very much doubt it, that is a crazy idea the Americans have come up with recently.
I was almost deported from the US a few years ago because I did not know the street name or number or zipcode of the hotel I had a reservation to stay at - that's the taxi driver's job.
It's a world without fax, phone, or email, and even in the steam-ship era you won't know in advance exactly which day your ship will arrive.[/size]
Many passenger manifests for those arriving in the UK, USA and Canada up to 1960 and available online, list addresses for passengers while residing in those countries. So certainly not a recent "crazy idea" ::)
I had to detail a US address when entering USA in 1978.
Cando
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http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx (Search as a guest)
The NAA online index has
Mr W THOMAS, embarked London, disembarked Sydney, 1 May 1928 on the Orsova,
The barcode no. 11443691.
As it is only an index, the actual ship's manifest may hold further info about that passenger.
Cheers, JM
I seem to have posted the above info on an already existing post, and I suspect I have overwritten my earlier post. Very sorry. I should have put my specs on before posting. :-[
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None of the marriage certificates I have include what you would normally consider to be a complete postal address.
You are much more likely to get a proper address from your mother's birth certificate, which you will have no trouble obtaining as you are her daughter.
I have had a good look at several NSW mcs in my collection. I can clearly read the addresses of both the bride and the groom, and while those addresses do not give a house number, they do include the street name, and the name of the house. These cover the years between the two World Wars.
In most instances, when following up those addresses, I have found that the couple were then found to at least start their married life at one or the other of those addresses, which was usually the address of other family members.
Cheers, JM
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Many passenger manifests for those arriving in the UK, USA and Canada up to 1960 and available online, list addresses for passengers while residing in those countries. So certainly not a recent "crazy idea"
... many of whom would have been returning residents, or people going to visit relatives or people that already knew.
It would not have been as routine, practical or normal, 100 or 150 years ago, to make advance accommodation reservations, as you would normally do today. You would turn up on whatever day the ship arrived and then look for a hotel or other lodging when you arrived, and there would be plenty of guidebooks and ads in the local newspaper and touts to help you with this, just as there are in many places in the world today. You didn't need a passportthen, either.
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I have had a good look at several NSW mcs in my collection.
I've got several dozen here, which don't. They are mostly country people and quite small towns, though. That may be the difference.
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I've got several dozen here, which don't. They are mostly country people and quite small towns, though. That may be the difference.
Sorry to disagree, but most of my fh collection is for my NSW families, born and raised in country NSW, (Central West and Western Division) sometimes in very small townships, mostly on the land, so the certs give the then name of the road and the name of the homestead. (add particularly the certs for family members who married between the two World Wars, and our OP is asking about a NSW marriage cert for 1930)
Many passenger manifests for those arriving in the UK, USA and Canada up to 1960 and available online, list addresses for passengers while residing in those countries. So certainly not a recent "crazy idea"
... many of whom would have been returning residents, or people going to visit relatives or people that already knew.
It would not have been as routine, practical or normal, 100 or 150 years ago, to make advance accommodation reservations, ...... You didn't need a passportthen, either.
I am fairly sure that passports became the norm from about 1914, in fact unless you were serving in the military, during WWI, you could not leave the UK without your passport. I also understand and that the requirement for future addresses became the norm on the migration papers from around the same era. In Australia the passports issued were of course "British" passports, as there was no such thing as Australian Citizenship until 1949.
ADD, our OP is asking about events that happened in NSW in the late 1920s and early 1930s :) all definitely less than 100 years ago.
Cheers, JM
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may I please mention that when my now neighbours migrated to Australia in the 1960s they were required to provide their new address and also a letter from their future employer,
Neither then, nor now, not all immigrants already have an employer. Some do, some don't . Depending on what category of visa you have, you would be expected to have an employer, or not. And in many cases, assumed NOT to have an employer.
The question raised by the OP, was whether, in 1929 , a British person arriving on a British ship in Sydney, from Britain, needed to have ( i.e. it was mandatory to provide one ) an address they were going to, in order to be allowed disembark from the ship and not be deported. I would contend, they would not necessarily have been compelled to provide one. If you had been asked this question, and you didn't have an address, and you said you were going to walk up to Pitt Street and look for a hotel, or catch the tram to Randwick and look for a boarding house, or catch the train to Barth-Hurst and look for a job, that would have been a perfectly satisfactory answer in 1929, provided that you looked as if you had enough money to do it. The freedom of movement, in those days, around the empire, was remarkably liberal in those days for white people anyhow.
Immigration record or ships manifests can record address, if people have one and provide it. But to the question, did you need to have an address, I think that the answer is no.
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I've got several dozen here, which don't. They are mostly country people and quite small towns, though. That may be the difference.
Sorry to disagree.
I have a folder sitting in front of my right now, with several dozen certificates in it, and only one of them has a proper address ( even a proper rural address ) on it. You disagree ? Perhaps I should send them to you, and you can point out the addresses I have somehow not noticed on them, written in invisible ink, perhaps ? Or written on the back, and not copied.
Or perhaps I should try and get a PhD research grant from one of the government's heritage slush funds, and go and spend two years to look at all of the records at the registry office, and come up with some soundly based analysis of how many, or what proportion of them, have proper addresses on them. Because the small handfulls of certificates that we have copies of, are not even statistically representative samples of the data. The plural of anecdote, is not data. It's a pointless debate.
Back to the OP .. the OP's "certificate" ( or transcription ) only lists the town. This admits to two possibilities
(a) That's all that was recorded in her particular case ; or
(b) The full address was recorded, and the OP feels that she has not "got what she paid for" .
Several pages back, the OP seemed to be expressing (b), quite strongly. It's only my opinion, and based on my observations, but I think that (a) is also quite likely. You have a different opinion.
If the OP realises that (a) is quite possible, she may feel less bitter than someone has cheated her, and she may also waste less time and effort on a pointless search for the elusive "full" certificate which may be hidden out there somewhere.
Even rigourous statistical analysis is not going to help the OP with information about the facts and perceived omissions on her own particular specific certificate.
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Hi there,
the towers, May I express my personal disappointment that you seem to have posted in haste. Surely each of us can contribute to these threads without needing to seek to admonish our fellow RChatters.
Cheers, JM
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Would anyone be able to look up a Birth
Certificate for my Mother Caroline Mabel
Thomas born 19th January 1932?
Her parents were Mary ( nee Archibald) and
William James Thomas.
Reply#1
We are unable to help you with this request. Birth information is restricted for 100 years in New South Wales. Information on certificates is not viewable online only on certificates or transcriptions of same. In NSW you are have the choice of purchasing a transcription [AUD20] or a certified certificates for births to 1913, marriages to 1963 and deaths to 1983. These events are classed as historical and available to anyone.
As your mother died in 1993 in the UK I suggest you contact the NSW bdm registry.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_bth/bdm_bct.html
Cando
I've also found that the registers of marriages at
St.James church Sydney are available on microfiche at The Society of Australian Genealogists and
wondered whether this would also contain more information?
The State Library of NSW aka Mitchell Library - Family History Service
The SLNSW has a family history service which occupies the same role as the SAG in terms of assisting family historians, except it is government funded and free to use.
The SLNSW holds a similar collection of microfilms as do the SAG, as they are both part of The Joint Copying Project.
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/services/ask/
Cando
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QUOTE from towers
"Or perhaps I should try and get a PhD research grant from one of the government's heritage slush funds, and go and spend two years to look at all of the records at the registry office, and come up with some soundly based analysis of how many, or what proportion of them, have proper addresses on them. Because the small handfulls of certificates that we have copies of, are not even statistically representative samples of the data. The plural of anecdote, is not data."
I don't think the idea of Rootschat is to get into slanging matches as you seem ready to do at every opportunity. Tone it down a bit and use it for good not to vent your days anger on. Eh ::)
Neil
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I am locking this thread for a few hours unlocked, whilst everyone calms down a little.
Sarah
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Hoping the following is not controversial.
From 1899 (Sections 5, 23, and 24 Marriage Act No. 15, 1899 ), the following information was required by NSW BDM to be recorded by the clergy re the bride and the groom
The Christian and Surname of the Bridegroom at full length
The Designation, Residence and Condition of the Bridegroom
The Christian and Surname of the Bride at full length
The Designation, Residence and Condition of the Bride
N.B. “Condition” Bachelor – Spinster, Widower – Widow, Divorced, or Divorced (Petitioner) as the case may be.
The above info is from the front page of a NSW BDM marriage cert, (pre-printed form, foolscap, portrait, both sides used) marriage celebrated in the 1920s. The reverse side includes further details about the parents of the bride and the groom and other family history information.
As I understand it, that 1899 Act was still in effect until replaced by the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages Act 1899-1934.
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/ma1899n15112.pdf
Cheers, JM