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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: kabeja on Monday 08 September 14 18:16 BST (UK)
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We recently got a death certificate for a relative who died in 1908 in the County Asylum in Durham at Sedgefield and there are some questions it raises which i am hoping Rootschaters will be able to help us with.
Firstly, the place of death is stated on the certificate as being in the County Asylum Mortuary. Would a person have been taken to the mortuary to actually die ? It seems strange to me. Can anyone shed any light on why this may be so ?
Secondly, as far as i'm aware the County Hospital was a mental institution yet the death certificate says the cause of death was "General paralysis caused by an accident whilst following his employment". He was a miner. I have no information yet as to when the actual accident took place.
Was there also a medical part to the County Asylum ?
If not, does anyone have any idea why someone would be there after a seemingly nasty accident at work ?
He was living in Quebec up in West Durham at the time, why would he have been taken to Sedgefield ? He had a wife, siblings and other family in and around Quebec at the time. Also i have found a death record for him at St Josephs, Patrick and Cuthbert in Cornforth which is a fair distance from Quebec where i would have expected him to be buried. Any ideas why Cornforth ?
There was an inquest held for which i have not been able to see the record of so far as i live abroad and will not be visiting in the near future. Maybe the answers lie in that.
Any ideas on the answers to the above questions would be gratefully received. Many thanks in advance.
Kabeja.
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Hi can you give us your relatives name, date of birth and place of birth to be getting on with thankyou
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There is a website detailing coal mining accidents and deaths, but whether your ancestor will be included in the circumstances -- I'm not sure -- worth a look though.
http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/
I cannot imagine anyone being taken to a mortuary to die -- seems odd. As a matter of interest, my Gt Grandfather died in an asylum - due to 'general paralysis'-- I have never been sure whether that meant he was paralysed or not. His admission papers don't say that he was. However I can see that your ancestor could have been paralysed due to the accident.
We may be able to find a newspaper report if we have his name.
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Hi can you give us your relatives name, date of birth and place of birth to be getting on with thankyou
Hello Durhamgirl,
His name was James Barnen, he was born in Queens County, Ireland in 1867.
We pretty much have all his details worked out through the English censuses and marriage. His surname does have variations but we have managed to locate him in all the census from 1871 until 1901 as well as his marriage to Mary Ann Leary in 1900 at Esh Laude.
My query is to why would he have ended up in the County Asylum for what appears to be a medical condition. Also, why would his place of death be given as the mortuary ? I would have expected him to be taken there after death.
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As a matter of interest, my Gt Grandfather died in an asylum - due to 'general paralysis'-- I have never been sure whether that meant he was paralysed or not.
General Paralysis could be General Paralysis of the Insane, caused by Syphilis.
Stan
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There is a website detailing coal mining accidents and deaths, but whether your ancestor will be included in the circumstances -- I'm not sure -- worth a look though.
http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/
I cannot imagine anyone being taken to a mortuary to die -- seems odd. As a matter of interest, my Gt Grandfather died in an asylum - due to 'general paralysis'-- I have never been sure whether that meant he was paralysed or not. His admission papers don't say that he was. However I can see that your ancestor could have been paralysed due to the accident.
We may be able to find a newspaper report if we have his name.
Hello Pennines,
Thanks for the reply and the link, i'll have a look at the site to see if there is any information about James on there.
It is interesting that your Great Grandfather died in an asylum due to "general paralysis". I have assumed up until now that it meant a physical paralysis, maybe it is a term used to describe a mental affliction ? I cannot understand why he would be taken from Quebec to the County Asylum in Sedgefield for a physical condition after an accident at work. I'll try having a look for the term "general paralysis" in relation to a mental condition
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Yes --- it's made me wonder if 'paralysis' related to something else connected with the mental condition. Stan has mentioned that it could be caused by 'Syphilis' -- oh my goodness, Stan -- his family would be horrified. They were staunch Methodists!
Puts a different slant on it completely.
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it could be related that brain damage suffered in the accident led to unusual behaviours (hence the asylum) or other physical problems such as catatonic episodes or epilepsy which might be dealt with in an asylum in those days
Given the specific reference to the accident on the death cert, i think syphilis less likely.
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General Paralysis could be General Paralysis of the Insane, caused by Syphilis.
Stan
Well that would certainly put another angle on it Stan. :)
In James' case it definitely says "general paralysis caused by an accident whilst following his employment". Why was he in the County hospital though ? Do you know if there was a medical section to the hospital or was it solely for mental conditions ?
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I saw no "General" Hospital in Sedgefield until 1939.
He was recorded in Durham Hidden Depths but that entry was disappointing.
Barnen, J.
Age: -
Occupation: -
Lodge: Hamsteels
Date: Aug-1908
Event: Death
Document Reference: D/DMA Main Vol 010
Page Number: 126
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it could be related that brain damage suffered in the accident led to unusual behaviours (hence the asylum) or other physical problems such as catatonic episodes or epilepsy which might be dealt with in an asylum in those days
Given the specific reference to the accident on the death cert, i think syphilis less likely.
Hello Mabel, thanks for the reply.
I think you may be on the right lines with your reply. It would certainly make more sense than him being there for a physical general paralysis condition.
Any idea why the place of death was the asylum mortuary ?
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I think in your case Kabeja -- it could well be paralysis caused by the accident. He could have broken his neck or his back.
I confused things by mentioning my Gt Grandfather's 'general paralysis' --- sorry about that.
Maybe there is something in the on-line newspapers now that we have his name. I can't look now -- but will check tomorrow, (unless someone beats me to it.)
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I saw no "General" Hospital in Sedgefield until 1939.
Cheers barryd. It would appear then that he was there for a mental related condition after his accident.
I think the inquest papers are going to be necessary to try to understand what was going on.
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There is some information within the Hidden Depths collection at Durham County Records office. I ordered something recently and it was very quick & easy.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019ym/
Added: Apologies, I see someone else has already posted this reference, but if it helps my order was for a very similar reference number and gave some details of the accident plus the amount of compensation paid to his widow.
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I think in your case Kabeja -- it could well be paralysis caused by the accident. He could have broken his neck or his back.
I confused things by mentioning my Gt Grandfather's 'general paralysis' --- sorry about that.
Maybe there is something in the on-line newspapers now that we have his name. I can't look now -- but will check tomorrow, (unless someone beats me to it.)
No apologies needed Pennines, i think you may have given some relevant info about the term general paralysis in relation to terms used in the Asylums. I had assumed it was a referral to a physical condition and that is what i couldn't understand. With your info about your Great Granddad and his general paralysis being a term used in asylums and Mabels theory about the accident affecting his behaviour i think we may be on the right track.
If you are able to find time to look at newspapers and find anymore it would be appreciated. Thank you. He died 25th January 1908 and there was an inquest on the 28th January 1908. The Coroner was for the Stockton Ward.
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There is some information within the Hidden Depths collection at Durham County Records office. I ordered something recently and it was very quick & easy.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019ym/
Hello Jomot, thanks for the reply and the link. Forgive the ignorance but i don't know what the Hidden Depths collection is, i've not even heard of it before. I see your link is for James Barnen and his death in 1908. Is the link related to his union membership ? What, if any other info would i be able to get from the Hidden Depths collection about James ?
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Hi Kebaja
I added a note to my original. The Hidden Depths collection is to do with mining. The record I ordered had a similar reference number to the one for James Barnen and gave brief details of the accident (a fall of stone in my case) plus information regarding the compensation paid to his widow.
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Hi
You may already know this but the Hospital at Sedgefield was called Winterton Hospital. If you search here on Rootschat, you will see several threads where people have asked various questions about people who died there, where they are or might have been buried and where patient records are. There are quite a few threads so it may be easier for you to search yourself and have a read through and it may fill in the answers to some of your questions though not all. A simple search term of Winterton Hospital searching all of rootschat will bring them up.
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I have looked at the on-line Newspapers, nut cannot find anything for the accident to James, or details of an inquest. Probably the particular year for that area is not on-line yet.
I would imagine the local library or local archive will have such old newspapers. I am not local to the County of Durham, so I can't say for sure. You could try contacting Durham Archives just to ask if they hold relevant records that would help you with this (or a local Rootschatter may know).
http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/contactus.aspx
I know that in my local archives (Lancashire) -- asylum admissions are held -- and I was able to see my own ancestor's records. It does vary from County to County though - depending upon what has been kept of course. I would definitely contact the Durham archives to see what they have.
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Durham County Record Office have these records for Winterton Hospital http://www.rootschat.com/links/019yv/
Stan
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Hi my gt gt grandfather died there 1899 from TB, but was buried at York Hill Cemetery. try googling Winterton Sedgefield, lots of leads to look at, also click on images when you get a list of search results, there is a photo of the hospital
www.townswebarchiving.com/sedgefield/record-grave for burials
www.houghtonlespring.org for info on workhouses, there may be a connection. Also lots of photos, a big site with lots of info
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As a matter of interest, my Gt Grandfather died in an asylum - due to 'general paralysis'-- I have never been sure whether that meant he was paralysed or not.
General Paralysis could be General Paralysis of the Insane, caused by Syphilis.
Stan
Hello Stan, we now have his patients notes from Winterton and it seems you were spot on about the cause of his general paralysis. While the notes don't specifically mention syphilis, in the notes James does acknowledge he had ''the bad disorder'' some seven years before his admission and the notes record the classic symptoms of the progress of syphilis related 'general paralysis' from his admission in April 1907 right up until his death in January 1908 by which time he was completely bed ridden, emaciated and feeble. He was also mentally 'exalted'.
When he was first admitted his notes said the cause/predisposition was an injury to the spine but the ''bad disorder'' he later acknowledges seems the likely cause.
We got the records from Durham Record Office which i have to say is a fantastic service for anyone who may need to use them.
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Kabeja and Stan.
Oh my goodness! I am the person who replied to Kabeja's initial enquiry saying that my Gt Grandfather had also died in an Asylum of 'General Paralysis'. Although I obtained his admission papers from the local Archives - I hadn't realised there may also be other papers concerning his medical condition whilst there. (I have no idea why I didn't think of that - it was such a shock to find he had died in the Asylum anyway - and to read the Doctor's admission notes.)
Now - from what you and Stan have said - I am even more horrified!
I have just looked up 'General Paralysis of the Insane' - and amongst other things Wikipedia states;
Delusions, common as the illness progresses, tend to be poorly systematized and absurd. They can be grandiose, melancholic, or paranoid. These delusions include ideas of great wealth, immortality, thousands of lovers, unfathomable power, apocalypsis, nihilism, self-blame, or bizarre hypochondriacal complaints.
My Gt Grandfather's admission includes a statement from his Doctor of things my Gt Grandfather had told him -- utterly ridiculous and fanciful statements as to what he had done, where he had been - his important job etc (none of which were remotely true). So he was most certainly suffering from delusions.
I can see I am going to have to delve again and see if other papers exist at the Archives.
Many, many thanks for the information and the update to both of you.
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According to the Registrar-General, for England and Wales, in 1915 there were a total of 2,246 deaths from General Paralysis of the Insane. 1,818 males, and 428 females.
Stan
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Stan -- have you ever thought of going on Mastermind?! You are so knowledgeable about all sorts.
Yes -- from what I read earlier it was more common in men than women. So you be careful!