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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Paul Caswell on Saturday 06 September 14 23:44 BST (UK)
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There's an article in the Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746321/Jack-Ripper-unmasked-How-amateur-sleuth-used-DNA-breakthrough-identify-Britains-notorious-criminal-126-years-string-terrible-murders.html) describing some DNA investigations of a shawl found at one of the murders suggesting it was Polish immigrant Aaron Kosminsk.
Have we finally laid the story to rest or is this just another false eureka moment?
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Um, very interesting. ;)
In one breath Russell Edwards said he was not interested in writing books or films related to this, but right there at the bottom of the page I see his book will be released on September 9th. A little bit of credibility lost for me.
I have heard of Kosminski before and knew he had been a suspect.
Not sure what I think about the claim that he is the killer and this shawl provides the proof. It looks to be in remarkably good condition for a delicate article of this age. The fact that it survived unwashed for over 100 years seems incredible. Too incredible? I would also have expected it to have been soaked in blood given the ferocity of the attack.
And just because both of their DNA was on the shawl, does that necessarily mean he was the killer? She was a prostitute and may have had professional dealings with him.
It's a good story though and I would like to believe it. Evidence sounds convincing, and you would not think that the researcher would put his reputation and career on the line by distorting the evidence ....
I wonder if this is adversely affect the ripper trade? Half the 'romance' and mystery surrounding the murders was due to the fact that the killer was never found.
Added: i just thought of the letters alleged to have been sent to police by 'Jack' ... does the writing and wording of these suggest they were written by a Polish immigrant? Is there anything written by Kosminski possibly related to his asylum admission or time spent there, which can compared to the writing in 'Jack's' letters? This would be my next area of research .... ;)
Added: just had a quick look at a couple of the Ripper letters online. They seem to be in different hands and vary in style and phrasing. Some sound 'Cockney' to me, but the From Hell letter is a little more convincing regarding writing style, words used etc, to have been written by an Eastern European.
Just my thoughts .... :)
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Very analytical Ruskie. What I know is that is probably was not a member of the Royal Family. Too well documented in the their daily comings and goings.
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by indentifying him (supposedly) that has taken all the fun out of trying to work out who he was ;D
Bev
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I was led to believe that he was a Scotsman, "Jock the Ripper" :-X :-X
Regards
Malky
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by indentifying him (supposedly) that has taken all the fun out of trying to work out who he was ;D
Bev
;D
I never did believe the Ripper was a member of the Royal family either Barry, nor anyone of high esteem such as Walter Sickert.
My daughter thinks that the scarf could have been payment for services rendered. if DNA of both were on the scarf that does not prove Kosminski was the killer. I would also be interested to know what else they extracted from the scarf - anyone else's DNA?
Was this a man's scarf? Presumably it was?
I find the Michaelmas scarf and timings of the murders to coincide with Michaelmas a bit far fetched. ::) And if dates are of significance to Kosminski what explanations can be offered for the dates of the other murders?
Odd that the results of these tests appear to have been known since 2011 or 2012, but have only now been released to the press. With the book coming out in a couple of days, the revelation that the Ripper has been identified is excellent timing. ;D
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I wonder if some expert can identify the age of the shawl?
Joe
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I read that the age of the shawl had been traced to the early 19thC and was probably from Eastern Europe. Apparently, this was done by tracing the dyes and threads used.
I have no doubt that science is advanced sufficiently to be able to extract and identify DNA from a 126 year old article. However, the sceptic in me (and the lawyer) also leads me to think that it proves nothing other than both Kosminski and Eddowes came into contact with the scarf. This is hardly surprising as someone resembling Kosminski was seen near the murder scene.
It is a brilliant find in terms of what science can do, but I think it goes a bit far to state that Kosminski has been "nailed" as the Ripper at last.
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The DNA evidence proves only one thing, some people are gullible enough to believe anything.
Cheers
Guy
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I'm reminded of the man who wrote a book claiming that a late "Jungly Barry" in India was really Lord Lucan. He backed this up with photographs and the claim that no such person as Barry Halpin had been born in Great Britain, according to birth records.
In fact Barry had been born in Ireland and was well known in folk music circuits in Lancashire, and was recognised immediately from the photos. As reliable a witness as Mike Harding described his reaction to the story: "I laughed. I cried. I laughed again". I saw the book very soon after, remaindered!
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What I remember of the shawl when I saw it on the telly was not of Michael daises,but much bigger flowers..
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I am very sceptical of this claim. If indeed DNA has been used to help identify Jack the Ripper then we would expect the results of the research to be published in a prestigious scientific journal rather than the Daily Mail. (DNA has, for example, been used very effectively in combination with genealogical records in the case of the Romanovs and of Ned Kelly, and for both studies the results were written up and published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.) I can find no evidence of any scientific paper having been published to support the claims about Jack the Ripper's DNA. Ancient DNA requires very careful analysis in a sterile lab in order to rule out contamination with modern DNA. It's also necessary to replicate the results by testing independently in a second lab. It is not clear in this case if that has been done. If the DNA from the shawl was tested in the same laboratory used for the modern DNA tests then the samples are likely to have been contaminated. Without having full access to the data we also cannot check that the results have been interpreted correctly.
Also, the researchers should have taken DNA samples from a second matrilineal descendant of Eddowes and a second matrilineal descendant of Kosminski in order to establish a consensus haplotype as was done in the case of Richard III.
There's another sceptical view here:
http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2014/09/jack_the_ripper_finally_identi.html
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...................... She was a prostitute and may have had professional dealings with him.
That's put in a very delicate way Ruskie ;D ;D ;D
It seems a bit dodgy to me :-\ as said, why would it be in a Newspaper, you would think they would have had some kind of large gathering to make the results known.
Frank.
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An abridged version of the article has appeared today in our (Australian) papers.
Obviously with the plan is to sell as many copies as possible of Mr Edward's book when it is released on the 9th of September. (tomorrow) :)
Devon, surely the scientist, Jari Louhelainen, would have undertaken the tests in the correct way - at least you would expect him to have done so. :-\ I suspect that there is more to the testing and the results than we have been told.
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Here's a more sceptical article from the Independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/has-jack-the-rippers-identity-really-been-revealed-using-dna-evidence-9717036.html
Ruskie, if the correct protocols had been followed then the research would have been published in a major paper in Nature or Science, as happened for example with the Romanov research and the Ned Kelly research. Instead the Jack the Ripper story has been sold to the Mail and it provides lots of publicity for a new book.
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So does this mean that the scientist, Jari Louhelainen, will/may lose professional credibility?
Or was this purely an experimental exercise with him not making any claims, and Mr Edwards is skewing the results to suit his theory?
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He may plan to put out his results in greater detail in a more professional publication at a later date. However, it is considered very poor form to announce them first in the 'popular' press, especially a low credibility newspaper.
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I read an article last Sunday in the Spanish newspaper "El Mundo" where a researcher was putting forward a very convincing theory that the Ripper was actually a woman.
It was suggested that she was the wife of the Royal physician who was unable to have children & had a psychological hatred of prostitutes,
As a doctor´s wife she could almost certainly have owned an expensive shawl although it wasn´t mentioned in the article.
My Spanish isn´t fluent, but what I could understand made a very convincing case.
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It seems Dr Louhelainen has little or no idea how to forensically examine anything.
A further claim states:
"...Dr Louhelainen to examine the shawl, who said that dark blood stains were “consistent with arterial blood spatter caused by slashing”.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-scientist-how-solved-mystery-7732111
For such a claim to be made the shawl would have had to be examined at the scene as any movement of the shawl would create a different pattern of the blood pool and staining.
In addition there is no suggestion for example that the DNA of the descendants of Sergeant Amos Simpson has been checked. He may have contaminated the shawl with his own DNA it could have been cross contaminated in a number of ways as no train of evidence has been provided.
I hope his lectures at Liverpool John Moores University are more accurate or else his students are going to be disadvantaged in their careers.
Perhaps Dr. Jari Louhelainen will publish his study in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.
Perhaps Liverpool John Moores University should review the findings, if only to redeem their reputation.
Cheers
Guy
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Found elsewhere Goggle extracts from Russell Edwards book Catching Jack the Ripper
http://tinyurl.com/kko5h7d
There is a mention of a shawl (owned by a victim Emma Smith of an assault by a group of men) in this account.
Is this the same shawl?
Have the names been confused in error or on purpose?
Cheers
Guy
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http://www.jack-the-ripper.org/
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One thing is for sure, this matter won't go away now. It may prove to be another Hugh Trevor Roper and The Hitler Diaries event, but perhaps not.
There's no question of the DNA evidence being courtroom admissable evidence but that's not necessary in this case.
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Thank you all for your contributions.
Experts as we are, let us perform due diligence (forgive me - I do not have access to any paid-for records any more):
1. Are there any records of him in what is now Poland (back then it was in Russian hands I hear)?
2. Is there any record of his arrival in England?
3. It is said he arrived in 1881 - if that was pre 3 April is he on census?
4. Is he in any other records up to his supposed incarceration in an asylum in 1890?
5. Can he be seen in an asylum in 1891?
6. I noticed mention of two different addresses in London in the articles - do they lead anywhere?
7. It is said hie has a different name in the asylum - can another person be traced with that name?
From the Mail article:
Kosminski has always been one of the three most credible suspects. He is often described as having been a hairdresser in Whitechapel, the occupation written on his admission papers to the workhouse in 1890.
Kosminski was 23 when the murders took place, and living with his two brothers and a sister in Greenfield Street, just 200 yards from where the third victim, Elizabeth Stride, was killed.
The ripper murders took place in 1888 so that gives him a d.o.b of 1865. He also has a sister Matilda.
He died in Leavesden Asylum from gangrene at the age of 53, weighing just 7st.
From the Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/508046/Polish-immigrant-named-as-Jack-the-Ripper-as-century-long-case-is-solved)
He was a Polish Jewish immigrant who, fleeing persecution in his Russia-controlled homeland, came with his family to England in 1881 and lived in Mile End Old Town.
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Kosminski)
At the time of the murders, Aaron apparently lived either on Providence Street or Greenfield Street, both of which addresses are close to the sites of the murders. The addresses given in the asylum records are in Mile End Old Town, just on the edge of Whitechapel
There are some very interesting (and presumably balanced) recent additions to the Wikipedia article.
It has been a very interesting discussion so far.
Paul
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Some information about Kosminski's life and death here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Kosminski
It doesn't help that Aaron Kosminski may have been confused with another Polish immigrant named Nathan Kaminsky [aka Aaron or David Cohen]. This man was the same age as Kosminski and also confined to a mental hospital not long after the killings.
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of course aaron kosminski was the ripper & if anyone took the time to read casebook it clear states what catherine eddowes was wearing when found right down to the very pattern found on the said shawl least we forget he fled a country that made thousands of jews find home elsewhere in europe also possible reports of abuse from his step father least we forget he had a mental breakdown not long after 1888 & tried to stab his own sister leading to him being found mental insane & ending up in various mentals asslyums one of which he only spoke to himself in yiddish, plus the dna has been test by experts in the field which is trusted world over i say without a doubt he is the ripper otherwise its a woman or prince eddy
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There was an interview with Jari Louhelainen, who did the DNA analysis, on the episode of "Inside Science" on BBC Radio4 this week.
Both the links from present-day relatives to victim and suspect were made using mitochondrial DNA, which passes down the maternal line and changes very little over the generations.
The suspect, therefore, is likely to match not just with the modern relative (identified through genealogy), but with all the descendants of his gggggggg grandmother. Unless he had moved from a part of the world with very distinct mitochondria, and none of his relatives had moved, there would be great difficulty with this evidence in a court of law.
The best that can be said is that someone from that part of the world was in contact with the garment in a sexual way.
Jari explains a lot in the programme, and hints that the evidence presented in the book is not fully explained because it seemed too complicated for the general public and also that the publishing deadline had been reached.
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There is a very interesting interview on Inside Science with Jari Louhelainen, the scientist who did the Jack the Ripper DNA testing. Adam Rutherford gives him quite a grilling. You can download the podcast here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/inscience/all
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There is one big problem with naming this man as the Ripper
In a tv programme some years ago about architecture, they were looking at one of the asylums in North London which is now flats.
They found at the local archives all the records and amongst them they were shocked to see a name they recognised, yes Mr. Kominsky. He was in this asylum at the time of at least 2 of the Ripper murders.
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They found at the local archives all the records and amongst them they were shocked to see a name they recognised, yes Mr. Kominsky. He was in this asylum at the time of at least 2 of the Ripper murders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Kosminski#Kosminski_and_.22David_Cohen.22
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wow wow hang 5 there for a start you can't access a dead person's records untill a century after their dead meaning it wouldn't be possible to view such a record yet as we arent 2019 yet also wikipedia & no other site including the famous casebook say anything about Aaron kosminski being in a asslyum during the murders, bearing in mind by this time he had been in england 6 years or so years & hadn't tried to stab his sister until 1890/1891, how can you lot be sure it isn't ie a brother, uncle & not Aaron, not even the lad who brought the shawl to light said a word about kosminski being in a asslyum during at least two murders, regardless he is the killer of catherine eddowes
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_the_Ripper_suspects this is a wikipedia page on known suspects pls note how it clearly says kosminski enter a asslyum -Colney Hatch Lunatic Asylum in 1891 not 1888, this is clear proof he was more than possible of carrying out all five murders
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I don't understand how the dna has emerged when it was said none existed originally.
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wow wow hang 5 there for a start you can't access a dead person's records untill a century after their dead meaning it wouldn't be possible to view such a record yet as we arent 2019 yet
snip
Very good but that is a recent rule brought in by the PC brigade.
Until relatively recently many records now closed or even destroyed were open to public access.
I even have a database of Australian records that have now been closed to public access which was readily available when I got my copy
Cheers
Guy
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hi guy yes in theroy viewing a record shouldn't have been possible even with TNA (the national archives (uk) ) any ripper related items are hard to gain public access to unless you are ie a celeb or doing it for a doco, also many ripper related books tell few details regarding kosminski & at best are very limited, theres no doubt it was him, also wikipedia (see previous post) states a timeline of his life, which states in around 1891 we went downhill, i think when he trying stabbing betsy his sister, all adds up tho, the said shawl matches up with a article of underclothing found on miss eddowes & a google images search of it finds a pattern very silimar to that on the said shawl
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wow wow hang 5 there for a start you can't access a dead person's records untill a century after their dead meaning it wouldn't be possible to view such a record yet as we arent 2019 yet
snip
Very good but that is a recent rule brought in by the PC brigade.
Until relatively recently many records now closed or even destroyed were open to public access.
I even have a database of Australian records that have now been closed to public access which was readily available when I got my copy
Cheers
Guy
Yes it is so sad looking at the damage/harm that the PC brigade have foisted upon us.
I loved a lot of those British comedies and one in particular was
the two Ronnies sketch enititled 'That Far Canal' ...... absolutely harmless but you cannot find it now ..... wiped off the map and there must be thousands more which are very similar.
Vale Humour.
Joe
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Regardless of who committed the murders, the more important person to trace in an asylum is the prostitute known by all the victims (whose name escapes me). She was looked after briefly by none other than Walter Sickert, especially after she had fallen pregnant.
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well pine if ever that woman was found thanks to current uk law legally no one would be able to trace such info until the 100 year privacy time, regardless of what year it happened in the privacy law would have to be respected, after all at one time or another she was a living person entitled to privacy
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Probably a good thing, even after all this time. A royal scandal is a royal scandal, regardless of the date.
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Back to square one I suppose ???. My own prime suspect was MJ Druett. Recently, someone wrote a book 'proving' MJD couldn't have done it, public school and a keen cricketer, hmmm!
I seem to remember he was also choice of Daniel Farson who produced a television programme. Poor Daniel Farson has come in for a lot of stick since.
MJD was either a paedophile or gay which was social suicide then. He was dismissed from his position as a school master and wouldn't have got a reference, so, no more work, if the Law Society had got to hear of it, (he was a lawyer) probably would have got struck off.
Commited suicide, buried at Wimborne (I think), Dorset. His father was an eminent doctor and family lived there. According to one of the senior police commanders, his own family thought MJ was the Ripper. I was down there about 4/5 years ago. I did make a half hearted look for his grave, but it was a cold drizzly day although height of summer. Suicides were not usually buried in consecrated ground.
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I think that no matter who the Ripper was, claimed to have been or dna proven ,people won't believe it anyway.No doubt after a short time the results would be proven wrong . Sue
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well sue as per the saying dna never lies the relatives of the victims more than likely are glad to know who ended the lives of their ancestor,theres already many a puzzle regarding mary jane kelly no doubt that will be the next thing to come to light, the people who looked at kosminski's records should eb formally charged for violating the privacy laws regards of when it came into action normal folk don't have that right so why should anyone else
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well pine if ever that woman was found thanks to current uk law legally no one would be able to trace such info until the 100 year privacy time, regardless of what year it happened in the privacy law would have to be respected, after all at one time or another she was a living person entitled to privacy
What 100 year privacy time.
Here in the UK there is NO, repeat NO law of privacy.
Some in the PC brigade try to bend different laws to include privacy but it seldom works for living people and never works for dead people.
Some archives have office policies not to disclose information under 100 years old but that is completely different from there being a law to prevent it.
The reason the census was not released before 100 years is because there between 1966 and 2000 there was a statutory instrument (repealed in 2000 that prevented the early release).
Incidentally only census from 1981 onwards carried the claim that the census would confidential for 100 years
However a point that is never mentioned by those supporting the so called 100 year rule is the Census (confidentiality) Act 1991 amended the Census Act 1920 and that makes it an offence to ever release the data without there being a change of law.
Not in 100 years, not in 1,000 years not in 10,000 years, never.
Cheers
Guy
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well actually there is a type of privacy law hence why we cannot yet see the 1921 census , only one chap brought out the 1911 census using the fact any law regarding a census was done after 1911, also with tna not just anyone can walk in & asked to see ie a war record, in america certainly Some archives have office policies not to disclose information under 100 years old but that is completely different from there being a law to prevent it.,that is a privacy act ie restricted access, but beyond all doubt kosminski was the ripper
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.... as per the saying dna never lies ....
Um, don't think I've heard that one before. ;D
I think there are a few question marks over the DNA in this case .... with it's accuracy being questioned.
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well in this case dna doesn't lie, they have tested direct descentants of both peoples, Dr Louhelainen is expert who know his stuff he cant lie nor can the dna the testing is 100 per cent spot on also this :Dark green chintz skirt, 3 flounces, brown button on waistband. The skirt is patterned with Michaelmas daisies and golden lilies,k you now tell me that very pattern doesnt match the said shawl with the dna on it, it is 100 per cent correct due to eddowes female relative who gave dna
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well actually there is a type of privacy law hence why we cannot yet see the 1921 census , only one chap brought out the 1911 census using the fact any law regarding a census was done after 1911, also with tna not just anyone can walk in & asked to see ie a war record, in america certainly Some archives have office policies not to disclose information under 100 years old but that is completely different from there being a law to prevent it.,that is a privacy act ie restricted access, but beyond all doubt kosminski was the ripper
Well you must be right seeing as you know all that.
By the way do you know the name of the chap who brought out the 1911 census, he might know something about "Privacy law"
Cheers
Guy
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:-X ;)
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Nice one Guy. Keep up the good work :)
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well you could ask the queen her royal self governs my nation , nz so u ask her why we dont have the privacy law here, anyhow regardless kosminski was the ripper they know for a fact he was as he was a un named suspect who a fellow jew couldnt go against in a court house ,really the uk police authorities want to be questioned as to why kosminski wasn't shown to be the killer
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Subtlety, thy name is Guy........
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yes guy may want to take a history lesson before jumping the gun, how are we in the commonwealth meant to know the laws in the mother country if the queen doesnt make it known to us?
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well actually there is a type of privacy law hence why we cannot yet see the 1921 census , only one chap brought out the 1911 census using the fact any law regarding a census was done after 1911, also with tna not just anyone can walk in & asked to see ie a war record, in america certainly Some archives have office policies not to disclose information under 100 years old but that is completely different from there being a law to prevent it.,that is a privacy act ie restricted access, but beyond all doubt kosminski was the ripper
Well you must be right seeing as you know all that.
By the way do you know the name of the chap who brought out the 1911 census, he might know something about "Privacy law"
Cheers
Guy
Guy - stop taunting your fellow chatters!! ;D Those of us who do know what you achieved are deeply impressed.
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Guy - stop taunting your fellow chatters!! ;D Those of us who do know what you achieved are deeply impressed.
...and if ever a topic needed to be marked "completed" this is it. Original topic long gone
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...and if ever a topic needed to be marked "completed" this is it. Original topic long gone
Puis, Retournons a Nos Moutons. (Moliere)
We still don't know who Spring Heeled Jack was - same area of London but 51 years earlier.
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Guy - stop taunting your fellow chatters!! ;D Those of us who do know what you achieved are deeply impressed.
...and if ever a topic needed to be marked "completed" this is it. Original topic long gone
Please don't have marked as completed, or have it locked, it's worth leaving open for entertainment value alone.
To steer the thread back to anything near the original topic, I think most Rootschatters would agree that there is too much doubt in this "new" evidence to conclusively name the Ripper as Kosminski.