RootsChat.Com
Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Jan Ann on Saturday 18 June 05 01:01 BST (UK)
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Hi to all! I am going to start a campaign to get census details released earlier. As someone trying to find distant relatives I find it ridiculous that if I do a search for myself (age 36) on the internet I can find me, my children, address and phone number, yet I will have to wait until 2011 or later (once they've been transcribed) until I can research who my family were in 1911 = who probably died before I was Born.! If any of you out there feel the same please send a personal message ON THIS SITE stating your name and postcode and I will try and get a petition started and lobby my MP in the UK. If you are not in the UK please say so in your e-mail - LETS START A CAMPAIGN TO REDUCE THE TIME FOR CENSUS BEING RELEASED TO A MAXIMUM OF 50 YEARS. PLEASE INFORM ANY OTHER MEMBERS YOU MAY HAVE CONTACTED AND GET THEM TO E-MAIL ME TOO! Regards Jan Tivey
PS I CANNOT BELIEVE ANYONE THAT HAS REPLIED TO ME AND SAID THAT IT IS DONE FOR REASON - WE NOW LIVE IN 2005 - IF WE CAN FIND DETAILS OF THE LIVING - JUST TRY SEARCHING FOR YOURSELF ON THE INTERNET AT B4U.COM FOR EXAMPLE - THEN WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK BACK FIFTY YEARS AGO AT OUR ANCESTORS!
C'mon You Lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are an awful lot of people looking at this page but not commenting at all so far 600 views but only 23 replies - stop being cowardly and state your opinion or at least poll you opinion!
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This topic has been raised a number of times ..... the general consensus (after argument) has usually been that much as we want the information why should we be entitled to it.
The thing is that if the time limit originally imposed is reduced or removed whats to prevent the next limit being removed and the next etc etc ...... before you know it we have a 5 minute rule.
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As Falkryn says, this discussion has happened before:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,53123.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,49904.0.html
:( No good either if the format of the returns that survive has changed such that it is not as useful to family historians as previous ones.
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This topic has been raised a number of times ..... the general consensus (after argument) has usually been that much as we want the information why should we be entitled to it.
The thing is that if the time limit originally imposed is reduced or removed whats to prevent the next limit being removed and the next etc etc ...... before you know it we have a 5 minute rule.
Good argument but unfortunately wrong.
The government did not make any promise to keep the census secret for 100 years until the 1981 census.
Only 3 census have specified that the information will be closed for 100 years - The 1981, 1991 & the 2001.
Early census (including English) were released in less than 100 years, the Scottish census release period was changed in 1974 from 70 to 100 years.
In 1871 the census officials in London divulged the names and addresses of all children 3-13 and their parents to the London School Board to help enforce compulsory education., therefore a precedent of releasing census information early had been set.
Cheers
Guy
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An argument which could run and run .....
Early census (including English) were released in less than 100 years, the Scottish census release period was changed in 1974 from 70 to 100 years.
whilst the precedent you quote may be considered good enough reason to demand a reduction in the period of closure my question still stands .... if we do away with one limit simply because we want the information why not do away with the next limit for the same reason.
Don't get me wrong if the information were to be made available I would love to get hold of it but the case has not (in my opinion) been made to justify the release.
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The answer to your question was in my reply-
There was no 100 year limit on the 1911 census when it was taken therefore there is no reason why it should be applied now.
If your argument was taken to its ultimate conclusion there would be no census releases until the 1981 census was released in 2082 as all census until 1981 put no date to the end of the confidentiality period.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi All,
Here's my 2 cents:
I tend to agree with Guy. As there was no 100 year promise, I would think it would be reasonable to release the 1911 and even the 1921 census early.
Could it be possible to invoke a 70 year rule on censuses prior to 1881?
The USA has released census based on a 70 year rule but I'm not sure when it took effect.
As Guy says, personal information is widespread on the internet and there are companies out there today who collect every detail of our lives in 2005. Who we married, if we have any speeding tickets, where and how we spend our money, etc. Anyone can find out where I live...but I can't find out where my grandma lived!!!!
Yesterday, a bill was passed in the Canadian Parliament to release the 1911 Canadian census...so...this summer, we will be able to view the US census and the Canadian census but poor old Britain will be in the dark ages again!
India,
A Brummie in California
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If your argument was taken to its ultimate conclusion there would be no census releases until the 1981 census was released in 2082 as all census until 1981 put no date to the end of the confidentiality period.
Cheers
Guy
A circular argument but incorrect .... what I said was that if the limit (note I didn't mention 100 yrs) was breached what was to stop the next limit etc etc.
You may find that the legislation which affected the 1981 census and introduced the 100 yr rule was also applied retrospectively to the dates that such information was collected. Not to the date (which was inferred as 2082)of the legislation affecting that particular census. It may also be the case that the legislation introduced a shorter time span than originally envisaged as it may never have been the intention to release the information as governments tend to do.
As I also said I would welcome some of the information but the proponents of this argument have failed to convince me of the validity of their case and I'm more or less on their side ..... what chance have they against a civil service that seems to operate in millennia ?
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This was found on http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.com/
Before you get too excited... this is for Canada!
cheers
Paul
Tuesday, June 28, 2005
Bill S-18 providing access to the 1911 Census passed the House of Commons today
Bill S-18 providing access to the 1911 Census passed the House of Commons today
At 8:00 AM PDT Tuesday June 28th MP Dominic LeBlanc, Deputy Government Whip, rose and stated words to the effect that "If the Speaker would seek it, I believe he would have the unanimous consent of the House to deem Bill S-18 -- An Act to amend the Statistics Act, to have passed Third Reading". That consent was given.
Bill S-18 has now passed all necessary stages in both the Senate and the House of Commons and all that remains to be done to make it law is for it to receive Royal Assent. It is expected that assent will be received shortly.
It is believed that the Library and Archives of Canada has already scanned images
of the 1911 National Census of Canada and they should be available online almost immediately.
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It may also be the case that as statistics now being supplied by the Home Office based on the 2001 census are considered "old" that a case could be made for a new time rule ..... although perhaps the decision should be left to those involved and who supplied the information not to those of us who are biased and who want the information.
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As others I too would love the be able to find information about relatives after 1901. But on reflection I realise that in this day and age, people are living longer and a 70 year rule would be releasing personal details about those still living.Before anyone tells me, I know that there may have been one or two people over 100 years old when the 1901 census was realised.
I value my privacy and hope I would support protecting other people from having their privacy invaded.
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And in case it passed you all by in 2001, there was NO BOX for your birthplace!
Re 1911:
Susan Lumas states in her book "Making Use of the Census"
The returns that year were not entered into enumerators books, so a search of the original schedules which are retained in place of the books would present considerable difficulties.
I also found this in a trawl of the internet:
England and Welsh Census Information for 1911.
The 1911 Census records for England and Wales are subject to the Public Records Act 1958 (Instrument No 12 dated 1966), which specifies a closure period of 100 years. The records will be opened to the public in 2012.
It was possible, following concessions announced in 1972 and 1989, for limited information to be released from the 1901 census to direct descendants and next of kin for family history purposes before the records were opened to public search. However, the concessions specifically referred to censuses prior to and including the 1901 Census and therefore did not apply to the 1911 Census. There are no plans for a similar concession relating to the 1911 Census.
A concession announced in 1993 relating to the 1911 Census is conditional upon the applicant requiring the information solely in order to establish a legal entitlement and would only be considered where the information could not be obtained from any other source.
Ian White
Census Legislation
The office For National Statistics
Nell
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I value my privacy and hope I would support protecting other people from having their privacy invaded.
very eloquently put and my sentiments exactly.
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hI
As I have stated before - your privacy is already invaded - if you live in the UK there are many sites both pay per view and free, that will list your name, address, postcode and telephone number. if this information is available, why cant we see similar information from 90 years ago?
Jan
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You can protect your privacy from these sites by 1. Going ex-directory for your telephone.
2. Putting a cross in the box provided by the
Council when registering for the Electoral
Roll will stop your name and address being
sold to the sites you mentioned.
I find that the sites are using out of date information for addresses and telephone numbers in many cases.
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Hi Nessie
Fair comment but it isnt always necessarily so that the information wont get out somewhere along the line! An elderley friend of mine had been ex-directory for over 25 years and was horrified to find out from her grandson that a free cd put out by a computer magazine contained all details of UK residents - including her phone number!- technology has advanced so much these days - there are all types of looney hackers out there that get personal information from large companies and sell them on to marketing firms, privacy is never guaranteed!
Cheers
Jan
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I accept these things do happen Jan, I can only try my best to protect myself and my family. It is a fine line between data protection and the freedom of information.
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If your argument was taken to its ultimate conclusion there would be no census releases until the 1981 census was released in 2082 as all census until 1981 put no date to the end of the confidentiality period.
Cheers
Guy
A circular argument but incorrect .... what I said was that if the limit (note I didn't mention 100 yrs) was breached what was to stop the next limit etc etc.
You may find that the legislation which affected the 1981 census and introduced the 100 yr rule was also applied retrospectively to the dates that such information was collected. Not to the date (which was inferred as 2082)of the legislation affecting that particular census. It may also be the case that the legislation introduced a shorter time span than originally envisaged as it may never have been the intention to release the information as governments tend to do.
As I also said I would welcome some of the information but the proponents of this argument have failed to convince me of the validity of their case and I'm more or less on their side ..... what chance have they against a civil service that seems to operate in millennia ?
You seem to have totally missed the point of the argument.
All early census prior to 1981 stated in various forms of wording that the census returns would be treated as confidential.
There was no time limit to this confidentiality therefore according to you case they should remain closed forever.
The 1981 census put a limit on the period of convertibility 100 years thereby allowing the 1981 census to be opened to public inspection in 2082.
In both of the above cases there has been no reduction of the time limit.
The reduction has however been made and changed by various parliaments throughout the intervening years. These time limits are purely arbitrary and in no way relate to any promise made to the population at the time the various census were taken. Therefore the time limit of 100 years may be changed at will with no promises broken for all census prior to 1981.
Cheers
Guy
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You can protect your privacy from these sites by 1. Going ex-directory for your telephone.
2. Putting a cross in the box provided by the
Council when registering for the Electoral
Roll will stop your name and address being
sold to the sites you mentioned.
I find that the sites are using out of date information for addresses and telephone numbers in many cases.
Yes putting a cross in the box will exclude your details from the database sold to marketing companies but it does not exclude your details from the full database which may be accessed by anyone who wishes to access it.
Cheers
Guy
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but it does not exclude your details from the full database which may be accessed by anyone who wishes to access it.
Like genealogists who demand immediate access ? :P
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G,Day all.
Having read through the pro,s and con,s,my thoughts are, that as no definite dates seem to be carved in stone,and as other legal precedents exist for non withholding of census records, we face the alternatives of accepting or rejecting,what look,s to be Governmental back flips!
I do understand the thinking behind the rule;s,Ialso understand security fears on willy nilly exposure of personal detail,s,even though not enabled by lawful decree.
Personally,I stress,personally,open debate is the solution to the problem.Not wishing to muddy the waters but individual,s might be given the right to specify total non disclosure,
for whatever length of time they choose.
Regard,s,Goggy. :-X
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A few facts about English records (I state English as the laws concerning records in the various UK countries vary slightly).
Civil Registers - Births, Marriages & Deaths, open for anyone & everyone to see and obtain copies (with the exception of stillbirths)
Electoral Registers, three types full edited & flagged - The flagged register contains everyone registered but is available only to government departments and credit checking agencies.
The full register may be viewed by anyone and copied by hand if so desired
The edited register open to everyone copies are sold to anyone who wishes to purchase such copies.
Parish Registers - Open to anyone who wishes to view them may be sold to anyone may be copied.
Census Returns - Subject to 100 year rule 1901 census and before where open to request for information about a specific address, this does not apply to the 1911 census and later.
Access may be allowed through the Freedom of Information Act ; some of us are currently pursuing this course of action but the procedure is one of steps which must be taken in order.
Future
The government is trying to set up a system of ID cards eventually, it is hoped, this will contain information on everyone in the UK.
Talks are already underway with interested parties to sell this information to those willing to purchase it.
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Guy Etchells.
Thank you very much,a true scholar and gentleperson.
Duly recorded for future reference.
Goggy.
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Hello
I have opened a can of worms here, judging from some of your replies!
I agree with goggy - thanks Guy Etchells for the info concerning Englands laws.
I am quite new to researching my family tree but have found the whole experience very fascinating! and sometimes very frustrating!
What started the argument off in the first place in my mind was when I tried searching for a living relative - I found them straight away - I then typed in my own name and was shocked to find my own details on the internet, my children's birth details etc. Yet, though I would like to know more abt my grandparents who both died 20 years ago I will have to wait another 6 years! - ridiculous!
jan
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C'mon You Lot
There are an awful lot of people looking at this page but not commenting at all so far 600 views but only 23 replies - stop being cowardly and state your opinion or at least poll you view!
Cheers
Jan
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I think within reason we should be able to view census records up to 1951 if i could view these it would solve a lot of my family puzzles but i will be to old in 2051 to read it so can not afford to wait that long. On the family relatives site you can view bmd records from 1984! THIS GOVERNMENT SHOULD CHANGE THE RULES WHATS THE DIFFERENCE WHEN CENSUS RECORDS ARE GOING TO INDIA TO BE COPIED TO DISC.
Jim
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This was from the Census office
postal address - The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU.
Tel: 020 8876 3444
The '100 year' rule which you mention was introduced in 1966 in Instrument
12 under the Public Records Act 1958, Section 5. This legislation applied
to census records, including those of 1911 that are in the custody of the
National Archives. The Freedom of Information Act repealed section 5(1)
with effect from 1st January 2005 but the exemptions in the Act allow for
Government and Census policy to be maintained.
With respect to the 1921 and 1951 Census records which are retained in the
custody of the Registrar General, these were taken under the terms of the
Census Act 1920, which prohibits the release of personal information
without lawful authority. Information from the 1921 and later Censuses is
also covered by Section 44 of the Freedom of Information Act which states
that information is exempt if its disclosure is prohibited by or under any
enactment.
I hope this clarifies the position but please let me know if you need any
further information
Yours sincerely
Margaret Wort
Census Legislation
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I have been reading this with interest. Perhaps a 75 year rule would probably be more practical.
I would love the 1911 census to be released early as it would make research easier and I might have chance of tracing some of my cousins but I can also understand what the government are saying about protecting peoples privacy but as pointed out - what privacy do we have these days!
And really - what are we going to learn from the census that will be so shocking? Granny lied about her age? GGrandad wasn't the owner of a large estate just the groom on one! Most of the addresses contained in the census probably no longer exist and if they do it is very rare that those named still live there
Maybe the best bet would be for the government to ask the people over 95 how they feel about it - after all they are the only ones whos privacy is effected
Willow x
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I don't think the 1911,1921 etc. census could show me anything I didn't know about my grans and grandads.
I think the 100 year rule is pointless.
I vote for 75 years or even 50 years
Sue
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OWING TO TODAYS TRAGIC EVENTS IN LONDON - AND JOINING THE DEBATE ON PRIVACY - DO YOU THINK THAT COMPULSORY IDENTITY CARDS WILL ASSIST THE WORLD IN THE FIGHT AGAINT TERRORISM - OR DO YOU THINK ITS AN INVASION OF YOUR PRIVACY?
MY PERSONAL VIEW IS THAT IDENTITY CARDS ARE A GOOD IDEA - IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE - YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR - BUT I DO BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BE FREE OF CHARGE.
JAN
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Most definitely they are an invasion of privacy and a total waste of time and money.
It has been proven time and time again that identity cards make absolutely no difference to terrorism.
Terrorists are not shady characters using false beards and sunglasses carrying false papers. They are in the main legally in the country they attack carrying legal identities and using their own identities.
Spain had I.D. cards but that did not prevent the Madrid bombings.
The following two quotes are from the news.telegraph website -
‘Paul Wilkinson, a terrorism expert at St Andrews University, said: "The majority of the September 11 hijackers were travelling under their own names, so they wouldn't have been picked up by an ID system."
Simon Davis, of Privacy International, said that of the 25 countries worst hit by terrorism over the last 20 years, 80 per cent had national ID card schemes and almost two thirds of terrorists operated under their real identities.’
There is only one reason for I.D. cards and that is to allow the government of the day to snoop into the private lives of the citizens of their country.
Cheers
Guy
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hI
As I have stated before - your privacy is already invaded - if you live in the UK there are many sites both pay per view and free, that will list your name, address, postcode and telephone number. if this information is available, why cant we see similar information from 90 years ago?
Jan
Ahh but Jan - 2 wrongs do not make a right.
The argument for and against does become circular. Other forms of information being available does not support the release of the census. If there is other info available why do you need the census.
The 1911 census will be less complete, harder to transcribe, harder to index and frankly I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed on 01/01/2012 (if it is ready by then).
It's a want not a need.
And yes I would want it but do not demand it.
Guy,
Well put. ID cards have made didley squat difference to benefit fraud, terrorism etc in countries that have them. So I would not accept that as a reason for instituting them.
And looking in my purse at the moment I have the following...
2 Credit cards (signed)
2 Debit cards (signed)
1 Photo driving licence (signed & addressed)
1 Blood donor (stating blood type - signed)
1 Work pass (signed/photo)
7 CRO/Library cards (all named 4 signed)
I think this sufficiently proves my identity. Bug.gered if I'll pay for another one!
I've nothing to hide but for the cost to teh country I see nothing to gain.
Pam
;D
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It doesn't take 5 minutes for anyone who wants to, look any of us up.
My bank/credit cards companies have my date of birth/place of birth and my mothers maiden name and my National Insurance number is on my bank statement as my pension is paid in.
My mobile phone and internet SP has my home address too as well as my mothers maiden name (for identification purposes of course!!)
My National Health number is the entry number on my birth certificate and my driving license has my age,date of test,organ donation requirements with blood group.
My passport has my next of kin.....my husband and children...and my children's bank / mortgage accounts have my maiden name ..............and so it goes on..... ad infinitum!!!
An identity card would not make the slightest bit of difference to me.........except I wouldn't be prepared to pay for it.
They know more about us than we think!!
Anyone is welcome to look up my census details
Sue
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I really don't want to get involved in the in the debate about ID cards, so I'll pass on that if you don't mind.
Census returns - many good points raised, and it would be great to see them. But, and I think someone else has already made this point, it should be the people it affects who have their say. So if the majority of people over 75 were in favour then I can't see a problem. And there could always be exclusions for those still alive whose details are on a census who did not want it released. After all we have all this wonderful technology, so I suppose I am saying that subject to certain conditions I am in favour...and don't blame the civil servants they can only do what their political masters tell them!!
Regards
Julie
:-X
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But Sue the census records bring all your information together, home, name, age etc
With these details all the information you list can be owned by somebody else.
To go back to the original subject of the thread...
It is very easy to get enough security details (place of birth, mother's maiden name, school) for account access so why make it easier with the release of census early.
Relatives of mine live in the same street as they lived in 50 years ago. The call to get access to the 1951 census would jeapordise the safety of living people's bank accounts - I think that is more important than Family History.
If we choose to advertise these facts through posting recent info on ourselves on FH websites or add our primary school to freindsreunited then that is a personal choice BUT free unmoderated access? Nah can't support it.
P ;D
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Your be surprised if you know where to look on the internet what information can be found about each and every one of us. Eg credit history, markerting history what each hosehold has brought what total income etc you can even trace the where abouts of most people some of the information is totally free others you have to pay for so whats the difference about having census information early
Jim
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An identity card would not make the slightest bit of difference to me.........except I wouldn't be prepared to pay for it.
They know more about us than we think!!
Anyone is welcome to look up my census details
Sue
An Identity Card could make one heck of a lot of difference to you if it contained your biometrics.
Once criminals hack into the central database containing the bio-metric details they will have the facility to carry out the perfect crime.
Crimes carried out using your fingerprints or your iris scans thereby proving conclusively that you carried out the crime.
Once such details are in the hands of criminals they can never revoked therefore you could never be use them for identity purposes. Think of the consequences of that.
Think it could never happen, then check the governments record on IT provision.
Cheers
Guy
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Crimes carried out using my fingerprints or iris scans - I seriously doubt it. Very few people have the know-how and practical skills required to pull-off such a stunt. Anyways, the technology and software I presume would be required to utilize 'hijacked' bio-metric details will be easily traceable from the moment of purchase. I don't see that happening (unless I watch a James Bond film ::)). Anyways ID cards seem pointless to me - what practical anti-terrorism uses can they possibly entail? A giant waste of money, I think.
More to the point of this topic - I completely agree with the issues that Guy & Jan insightfully raised in the first handfull of replies. I do believe the 1911 or even the 1921 census information should be made available to us - the consumer. There is great consumer demand for the 1911 census in the "census market" so it might as well be released. The real question here is what do we have to loose by divulging the 1911 census information? I believe the answer is NOTHING. All family history researchers, as well as the Government will benefit from this. I don't see any group of people here loosing out.
Ryan.
:)
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But WE (i.e. family historians) are not the CONSUMER for whom that information was intended. A census is a statistical survey taken for the government of the day so that they can plan (ahem) future needs e.g. housing, health care, schools etc. That's why they no longer ask the same questions that used to be asked. Life got far more complicated and they already have the basic stuff anyway. How many numbers are we now represented by. Even the number on my birth certificate is no longer my NHS number - it's now some huge great long number :-\
We are now using the census for purposes that were never thought of when the Victorians started along this road. The original purpose needs to be remembered. If it wasn't for future generations to look up everything about everyone else in the country, then perhaps the powers that be have it right for a change ???
Nell
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What ever reason the census was taken for in the first place makes no difference This is historical information that should be allowed to be used for historical purposes eg family historians the government could even charge us and the money made could be put to something usefull eg nhs, Olympic games or the cost of id cards.
Jim
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Exactly Jim.
Little Nell - Yes, that is true. But isn't it also true that the Government has learnt all that it can from these censuses? Isn't it fair that we should have the same opportunity to learn from them? After all - they are OUR ancestors. "Consumer" and "Market" was simply a way for me to convey my opinion about this.
Ryan.
:)
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Crimes carried out using my fingerprints or iris scans - I seriously doubt it. Very few people have the know-how and practical skills required to pull-off such a stunt. Anyways, the technology and software I presume would be required to utilize 'hijacked' bio-metric details will be easily traceable from the moment of purchase. I don't see that happening (unless I watch a James Bond film ::)). Anyways ID cards seem pointless to me - what practical anti-terrorism uses can they possibly entail? A giant waste of money, I think.
Ryan.
:)
You mean in the same way as the software and the technology required to scan ones smart credit card whilst it is in your pocket would be easily traceable? Perhaps so but it exists today and is used by criminals as we write.
It was not just me being fanciful, those fears were expressed by experts in the security field who know and understand information technology unlike the government who don't.
With regard to the 1911 census the real reason it is being witheld as long as possible is that the enumeration books are in a total mess due to poor storage, a mess that will take years to sort out.
Cheers
Guy
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And just to add a happorth - The Government and the GRO working together are in the process of producing a database which will contain ALL useful (to whom?) data about a person.
From the moment of birth, when the entry will be made probably by the hospital, the name will only be needed as confirmation later when the birth is registered by the parent to match up with the entry, following through other moments in life, including NI numbers, marriage, death etc.
This will be happening in the foreseeable future.
Mary
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Do you know that is was only 15 years ago when we were all thrilled that the 1881 census was available at our local LDS family history centre.
Joy when it came on line.
The 1891 census was available at the same place on Microfiche in 1991. What excitement searching through fiche after fiche. The only index was of Streets and they weren't always accurate.
When 1901 came on line there were so many hits it broke down and we had to wait 6 months to be able to view it.
YET without a computer I still managed to get all sides of my family back to 1837. How on earth did I do it? ??? ???
Sylviaann
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It's also rumoured that because of poor storage etc that the records of the 1911 census will be patchy at best.
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I'd love it if the 1911 census was released early, and was happy to vote on the issue here, but I remember all too well what a shambles it was getting at the 1901 census! So much for technology making life easier then, eh? I'm all for protecting our privacy (I'm in favour of ID cards if they won't cost us anything - I've got nothing to hide, and would be happy to carry an ID card in a purse that's already full of other ID if they want me to - but I don't for one second think they will prevent terrorism or make the country a safer place) but, as was mentioned earlier, the government should practice what it preaches about privacy! There are far better ways to spend millions of pounds. Speaking of which, I'd rather pay however much the ID card is going to be to access the 1911 census a few years earlier than usual. ;D
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Hi
I have only just joined your site, but fully agree with you that the 1911 should be released much much earlier. Do get up a petition and get on to your M.P.
I have already spoken to my M.P. and he too would like to see the 1911 up and running, but alas, that was as far as it went. This is all too much 'red tape'.
At this rate we are going to be pushing our zimmer frames as we do our searching ;)
I do hope more people will reply to you.
GillianR
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i have to agree with the other peeps posted here and say YES to the 1911 census being released early!!
i have researched myself on the internet and found things I didnt even know about myself!!!!!!
so if it really is privacy that is the issue i want mine back!!! >:(
but i dont think that is what its all about
its all about rules --------- silly rules at that
and besides it might answer the question as to how my nan came to have 3 children by another man whilst living with her husband i mean was he a neighbour or what ??? and was my nans' husband really seeing the man who lived accross the street at the time !!????
(family folklore needs checking and i can only do that via 1911 census)
donna
x
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I cannot wait until the 1911 census is released as a whole new branch line of my family will be unleashed for me to explore. I'm searching for an OWEN which is an extremely common name so i don't know which one he is on the 1901 census. In 1911 he has a family. So i want the 1911 census to be released early. Plus a family secret that has been dead for nearly 100 years will be resolved by one word on the census page. I CAN'T WAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT!
All the best with the campaign
Sam
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If only we could get the 1911, then perhaps I would find out what my grandfather was doing, but his name was
Smith- so I am going to have a problem anyway.
It is important to all of us that the 1911 is released
early.
GillianR
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We can get biths deaths marriages to present day so why not make the census 50 yr secrecy act make the job easier for us all,good luck with the lobbying behind you all the way
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I am behind you all the way with getting hold of the 1911 Census.
Do you have anyone in particular whom we could all write to, apart from our own local M.P.'s
If we could have ONE NAME AND ADDRESS, then maybe a full on bombardment of letters, or e.mails, might get someone thinking??
GillianR
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Received this via email - interesting!
From: Denis McCready
> > To: UK Centre for Census Access Studies
> > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 3:14 PM
> > Subject: The English & Welsh 1911 Census closure rule has been abolished
> >
> > Just in case you haven't heard
> >
> > The English and Welsh 100-year census closure rule was abolished by
> > Parliament in 2000, when it passed the Freedom of Information Act.
> >
> >>From 1st January 2005, family historians from anywhere in the world can
> > apply for Freedom of Information Act copies of the 1911 or 1921 census for
> > England & Wales.
> >
> > The facts have been kept a closely guarded government secret for 5 years.
> >
> > To find out whether you or your MP have been conned by ministers since
> > 2000, just look for a mention of Lord Chancellor's Instrument No.12 (1966)
> > in any official letter on the 1911 Census that you have received. If the
> > letter doesn't mention the abolition of the 100-year census closure
> > period, you're probably the victim of government deception.
> >
> > For FREE advice on getting your own Freedom of Information Act copy of the
> > 1911 Census, visit our Home Page.
> >
> > Denis McCready
> > Director
> > The UK Centre for Census Access Studies
> > Solihull, England
> > Home Page: http://home.clara.net/denis.mccready/index.htm
> > Email: denis.mccready@clara.co.uk
> > Fax: +44 (0)870 912 1254
> >
> >Cheers
Janet
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With the amount of technology and the desire for a multitude of agencies to gather and exchange personal information about the lives of living citizens of this country we have no privacy whatsoever. There can't really be an issue about releasing some information taken 95 years ago.
George
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Janet if this is the case it means we should be able to view Census of 1911 and 1921 now and there should be somewhere we can view but I don't believe we will be able to view for many years yet
Jim
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I visited the website mentioned in my previous message and sent an email to Denis - suggest others do the same!
I am now waiting to hear what he has to say. Will keep you posted.
cheers
Janet
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According to an item in Family Tree Magazine (Nov 2005 edition), people who have been attempting to access to the details of the 1911 census for their direct ancestors have had a disappointing time. Their applications have been rejected. One person passed on the letter he had received from TNA which states the following:
the FOI Act 2000 gives applicants two rights of access: the right to know whether TNA holds the information being sought, and the right to have the information given to them. These rights may only be overridden if the information people are looking for is covered by an exemption in the Act. Since the provisions of the FOI Act came into operation in January 2005, the Section 41 exemption, relating to breach of confidence, has been applied to all the applications received by TNA.
Many other applicant received the same letter.
TNA responded to FTM's enquiry about this with a press release saying:
in March 2004 the minister for Consitutional Affairs explained to the House of Commons that, in the government's view, a closure period of 100 years strikes the right balance between the access interests of family historians and the right of citizens to have information about themselves in their census returns kept confidential. In July 205 the minister restated the view that 'it remains government policy to make census returns publicly available after a period of 100 years.' Therefore, the 1911 census is due for release in 2012.
The item also reiterates the point previously made: the enumerators books for this census were destroyed, but the householders schedules survive. This is going to make searching the 1911 census very much more difficult.
Please don't shoot me - I'm only the messenger :(
Nell
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The thing that I find strange about the 100 years rule is you can get information on the Official Secrets act after 30 years. Yet census information is deemed more secret, and to be honest - what does census information contain anyway, thats so secret ?? The following are publc domain
your name? No;
your address that night? No;
Your postcode maybe ?? hmm, naw
place of birth ?? Is it that really secret;
your occupation ? Don't think so;
do you have your own front door (flats) ? no;
Do you own you home or are you a tenant? oh really secret;
your relationship with others?? come on really;
I know what it is = its your age, what else can it be??
oh sorry its marital status
All other info has been used in stastitics within two or three years -
Andrew
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I find the whole thing so frustrating!! I cannot see why the census cannot be released now - how many people over 96 years of age are still living and therefore likely to be on the census? What is so secret about your name, age and occupation in any case? OK, so there might be a few skeletons coming to light but to those of us researching our family history, this only serves to make it more exciting. I am well into my 60s so don't have too much time left! I hope I shall survive to see the release of the 1911 census but doubt if I shall be here for the 1921!
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Hi There
I still cant believe that so many people have viewed this post but seem reluctant to vote or post an opinion - are there really so many shy people on this site??????????????
Cheers
Jan
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Hi Jan,
I don't think Rootscahtters are that shy.However, I think they must have a relatively low pain threshold tolerance---from banging their heads against a governmental brickwall.
I'm all for early release of the information,after all what necessity is there to protect the information contained in a census for so long?.
Still,I suppose a promise is a promise......and the promise to keep census information secret for a hundred years must be the only promise our present government has kept.
By the way,do I detect a little irony in the posting of AndrewR?.
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Irony ? Me never ;D ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Hi Jan,
Still,I suppose a promise is a promise......and the promise to keep census information secret for a hundred years must be the only promise our present government has kept.
Except the promise to keep the census closed for 100 years only appeared on the 1981, 1991 & 2001 census. There was no promise of confidentiality for 100 years in any census prior to 1981 so I am afraid that argument is a load of hogwash.
Cheers
Guy
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Hi all, this thread makes interesting reading, but one thing really puzzles me. Even if there is a 100 year rule on the 1911 census, why is the release date stated to be 2012?
A hundred years from the 31 March 1911 expires on 30 March 2011. So why the extra year, is it to prepare the data for release?
I have two probs that the 1911 could answer so would dearly love to see it & really don't fancy waiting six years.
Someone asked earlier if there was one person to contact re early release of 1911 census. What's wrong with Tony Blair, I'm sure he would appreciate thousands of letters on this subject. TonyR.
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Just thought I would add my personal thoughts on ID cards and Census release dates.
ID cards - Wouldn't bother me if I had to carry one, infact before I had a driving license I had problems proving my ID as most businesses (DFS, Curry's etc) would not accept my family allowance book as ID even though it carried my full name, husbands name, childs name and dob and my full address. But I do agree we shouldn't have to pay for them - Not many people objected to carrying ID cards during WW2.
Census - I think a 50 year closure rule would be enough, I would love to find out more about my Nan, born 1913 - where she was living, who she was living with etc.
My other Nan is now 92 and she wouldn't mind at all if the census images with her on were released. (I have asked her!)
Like previous rootschatters have said you can find out almost anything about anyone on the internet now so it seems daft not to release census info after 50 years.
Happy researching to you all for 2006.
Sue B
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Why wait fifty years why not ten, the basic information from a census is in the public domain anyway. At least give access in record offices
ID cards no probs, I have to carry one anyway, can't go to work without one nor leave a building at work without one.
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Hi all, this thread makes interesting reading, but one thing really puzzles me. Even if there is a 100 year rule on the 1911 census, why is the release date stated to be 2012?
A hundred years from the 31 March 1911 expires on 30 March 2011. So why the extra year, is it to prepare the data for release?
I have two probs that the 1911 could answer so would dearly love to see it & really don't fancy waiting six years.
Someone asked earlier if there was one person to contact re early release of 1911 census. What's wrong with Tony Blair, I'm sure he would appreciate thousands of letters on this subject. TonyR.
Because it is actually 100 full years from the end of the year the event occurred.
Cheers
Guy
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Just thought I would shove my nose in with an opinion.
Firstly, I am desperate for the 1911 census. I have so many questions I would like answers to from my grandparents, unfortunately none of them are with us any more. So I agree, for my own personal gain, that the census should be released early.
As for the privacy side of it. Well, in this day and age none of us have any privacy. Big Brother is always watching and knows more about us than we know ourselves. It is fairly easy to find information about anyone these days, but the information we all crave is kept under lock and key.
I also disagree with ID cards. Not that I have anything to hide, I just think that they are just another thing to go wrong. We already have problems with credit card fraud, identity fraud, etc. These criminals don't make millions of pounds from scams because they are stupid. All technology released in recent years has been compromised by hackers/techies, so what makes the identity database held on us all any more secure? The information intended to be held on the ID cards, if compromised, puts us in more jeopardy than than the release of a 95 year old census!!
Rant over ;D
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I agree with your comment on the census.BUT ID CARDS SHOULD ME MADE COMPULSORY the only people who do not want them must have something to hide.
Jim
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I don't object to them, I have to have one anyway, but can agree why some people don't want or disagree and we should listen
Andrew
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I agree with your comment on the census.BUT ID CARDS SHOULD ME MADE COMPULSORY the only people who do not want them must have something to hide.
Jim
I have nothing to hide but strongly object to I.D cards.
Why?
Because I.D. cards make fraud and identity theft easier for criminals, there is only one document that has to be obtained or forged instead of several as now.
It will also make proving any illicit use of a forged I.D. card almost impossible to prove at a later date.
See -
http://tinyurl.com/7wzlt
on similar lines
http://tinyurl.com/9szpr
ID cards would certainly not have stopped the 9/11 outrage the terrorists used their own names they would not have stopped the London bombings.
It has even been suggested that an ID card could create an ID theft kit.
see -
http://tinyurl.com/a25us
Cheers
Guy
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I already hold a blood donor card (biometrics!), driving licence (photo & signature), work pass, passport, 6 readers tickets (status as nerd confirmed) and many more.
Why the bally hellfire do I need to PAY for another one.
The ID card isn't going to replace these things therefore I get nothing out of it. It is therefore a tax. Do I want to be taxed again? No I don't - I lose out as a single no kids working person as it is (though as a socialist I don't mind too much).
Besides that I agree with everything Guy said ;)
P ;D
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I have tried to get a copy of the 1921 census from the ons but they refused. I made a complaint to the Info Comm but they found against me. I am still waiting for a copy of the decision notice. When I get that I will appeal. There is too much secrecy surounding the census. A wealth of info can be found in other areas which makes it stupid to keep the census closed for a 100 years.
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I recently complained about ONS refusing to give me a copy extract from the 1921 census. I complained to the Information Commissioner and after about 12 months wait got the reply I did not want. The Information Commissioner found in favour of the ONS.
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Maybe we need a section on future Censuses to specify how long we want our details to be kept confidential, ranging from say 20 years to 100 years. It would take some time to have any real effect but at least it would put the decision back with the informant rather than the Government/ONS.
There could also be a section on the 2011 Census to effect this retrospectively as well (i.e. when do you want your info from 2001, 1991, 1981, etc. to be released) but I suspect that would be fraught with problems of linking you to the right historical record, especially where your name has changed at some point). Not sure what we'd do with historical records of dead persons (arguably they can't give permission so it stays at 100 years, defeating the aspirations of many genealogists).
Sherwood.
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Well, in my experience, quite a lot of the information given on census is blatantly incorrect anyway- through ignorance or design who knows - ::) different ages every 10 years, different place of birth every 10 years, yes we're married - no they're not! This is my eldest daughter - no she's not she's your wife's daughter ! I'm a widow - no you're not, he's living in the next village and says he's married to someone else, etc. etc.
That being the case, releasing the census after 50 years isn't going to reveal much contentious about anyone except that they lied on the census! ;D It seems that even allowing for ignorance of dates and places, anything they wanted concealed wasn't declared in the first place!
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I'm all for 1911 census being released earlier. The concerns I keep reading mainly relate to the privacy issues.
For the life of me I cannot find any information online for people living around that time in 1911. After the 1901 census I'm stumped.
Yet I am amazed that today in '2008' I can find hugh amounts of information relating to living people online.
Immigration records on Australian National Archives has my parents and siblings birth dates and where they were born (mum & sisters living) even photo's.
You can find anyone on the Electoral Roll, Telephone Directory. Just google anyone and you can guaranty their email address will appear. You can even find out in some cases where people work. Even current death/funeral indexes online give out enough information to know where they were living prior to death. I use the Ryerson Index (Australia) which has current deaths.
I'm more concerned with 2008 that people can get anyone's personal details, seems to be a lot online. You can understand now how easy it is for people to steal someone's identification.
Please release the 1911 census today. I'm starting to run out of information.
I may have to start researching living people as there is more information to collect.
Cheers
Rupert
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HiYall ;)
I started this debate some time ago ( I know there have been others before me) BUT the 1911 census has SO much to offer as from 1912 onwards mother's maiden names are available on the GRO so it is simpler to search. In between 1901 - 1911 the maiden names are not mentioned so it is far more difficult to trace rellies. :o
From 1912 you can find anyone on either Free BMD or Ancestry et al. It may take time, but at least with a little patience, the answers are before you :-\ 1901 - 1912 is so frustrating! early release (which I believe is imminent) would solve a lot of questions. I know a few who have had success by paying £40 or searches of addresses but I dont think the price is affordable for most of us ::)
Lots of Luck to All of you :-* :-* :-* :-*
Cheers
Jan
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Scotland Online have set up a 'microsite' where you can follow the progress of the digitisation project so far. There isn't mush there yet, but you can register for updates
www.1911censusinfo.co.uk/census-news.php (http://www.1911censusinfo.co.uk/census-news.php)
Mean_genie