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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: iwccc on Wednesday 03 September 14 00:42 BST (UK)
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I am trying to research a family called Bishop who I believe left somewhere in Scotland for South Africa. I don't have a first name. The family had a son- James McKay Bishop in Cape Colony, South Africa in 1841. (James' son, Alfred John Bishop was a miner b. 1864 - a Scottish colonial)
Would anyone know of a list of names of those who left Scotland for South Africa in probably the 1830-1840's.
Unfortunately James' Death Notice does not have his parents names. Thank you
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There's an army birth for a James McK. Bishop in 1841 in St Helena. 91st Regiment. volume 182, page 9.
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Acting Sgt Major John Bishop of 91st regiment was in St Helena from June 1839 to October 1842. Discharged to pension 1852, intending to reside in the Cape of Good Hope. By trade a marble cutter, born North Leith circa 1809.
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With the details provided by ShaunJ, there is a possible birth & christening entry showing in 1809 here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTTW-HBM
Monica :)
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Hi ShaunJ. Thank you so very much for your reply and information. I think this might be the man I have been searching for a very long time. May I ask where you found the army birth listed? You have shown that James McKay Bishop was born in St. Helena in 1841. I have him listed as being born in the Cape Colony 1841. Do you know -- was this a common way of registering a birth. (ie.. born whilst Dad in army in St.Helena and later registered in Cape Colony??
You also mentioned that Sgt. Major John Bishop being in St. Helena from June 1839 to Oct. 1842. Do you know where he was from 1842 until his discharge to pension in 1852?
Also does anyone know why the 91st regiment was in St. Helena? Once again thank you so very much. You have made my day! Cheers from Australia
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Dear Monica, thank you for your reply and the information you provided regarding John Bishop. I think this must be the man I have been searching for a very long time. Now that I have James McKay Bishops father's name I can press on in my research in Scotland. I had always hoped that the family may have come from Scotland!?!? I am very excited with this information. Thank you so much. Cheers from Australia
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His army papers how that he served 3 year 4 months in St Helena - this would have been garrison duty on what was then a very important island possession on the long sea route from the UK to the East Indies.
He also served 9 years 3 months in the Cape of Good Hope and this would have been after St Helena. It is recorded that he served in the Kaffir Wars of 1846 and 1850-51-52.
You say you have him listed as born in Cape Colony but where did that information come from?
The 1841 army birth is from GRO Regimental Births which is searchable on FindMyPast and TheGenealogist. Also on familyrelatives.com.
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Thinking about where to look for a marriage. The main body of the 91st had been in St Helena for some time before John Bishop was posted there in 1839, and it is likely that he was with the regimental depot in Dundee before that.
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John Bishop 59 "late Sergeant Major 91 Regiment" is in the 1871 census in Burton Bradstock Dorset with a wife Ann 65 from Whitchurch Dorset.
Ancestry has an online tree which mentions a previous wife Catherine Shanon and two children (George 1837 and Elizabeth 1845) but no James McKay
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Shaun, that find is brilliant ;) Just looking at one main tree on a/try with a wealth of additional info relating to his military career starting from attesting in Glasgow in 1830.
From all links and details there, the 1809 birth we had from earlier looks to be incorrect as it seems to be that he was born on 13 Dec 1812 in South Leith to a John Bishop and Jane Henderson
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY3G-BPX Further siblings show on Family Search. Their marriage in 1810 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYMD-NJ2
iwccc, you too have a tree on a/try which will let you review this info found by Shaun.
Monica
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The one who attested in Glasgow in 1830 is a different person I think. John Bishop from North Leith attested in Edinburgh in 1829. He said then that he was aged 20.
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Could there have been two?! The same tree has:
John Bishop, aged 20 at attestation. Born c. 1809 in Nt Leith, Midlothian
Military Date: 10 Dec 1829 and Unit: 91st Foot Soldiers, Depot.
Source: Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900
John Bishop, aged 18 at attestation. Born abt 1812 in Leigh (sic.) Edinburgh
Attestation Date 29 Jun 1830 in Glasgow
Regimental Number: 756
Source: Canada, British Army Regimental Rolls of Non-commissioned Officers and Soldiers, 1806-1892
Needs to be gone through in detail, particularly as we have different births/parents for each of these John Bishops.
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we have different births/parents for each of these John Bishops
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Actually we don't really know whether either of the baptisms is right.
Army numbers: the one from North Leith was 634 in 91st Foot, discharged 1852. The one who attested in 1830 in Glasgow was 756 in 78th Foot (as far as I can make it out ) and was discharged in 1834.
Just a word of warning about those so-called "Canada" military records on Ancestry. In my experience they don't necessarily have any connection with Canada.
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You are good at these types of records, Shaun. I get lost sometimes with these kinds of entries :P
The best place now I would have thought would be to try to get to see/order the birth found by you earlier
There's an army birth for a James McK. Bishop in 1841 in St Helena. 91st Regiment. volume 182, page 9.
Monica
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I am running out...and late as always :P But, just wanted to add this info.
I think the John Bishop, son of John and Jane Henderson, may still have been around Scotland and as such we can eliminate him from what we are looking at. Needs to be confirmed via death cert, assuming he may have died in Scotland.
This is 1841:
John Bishop 28 Meals Dealer Shopman
Margaret Bishop 28
Thomas Bishop 2
John Bishop 36 Months https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTTQ-HR2
Address: St Anchea Street Fox Lane, South Leith
I think this couple is John Bishop and Margaret Tyrie. One of their children is a daughter called Jane Henderson Bishop (the John born in 1812, his mother was Jane Henderson). Children show for this couple on Family Search.
Such interesting families, sigh, want to look more now ;)
http://rbg-web2.rbge.org.uk/bbs/learning/bryohistory/Bygone%20Bryologists/JOHN%20BISHOP%20DUNCAN.pdf This looks to be a grandson of John Bishop and Margaret Tyrie, son of Margaret Tyrie Bishop.
I am hopeful that John Bishop's DC, born 1812, is likely to be found post 1855. Will look more later... If we can properly eliminate him, we can focus better on the John Bishop born 1809.
The family seem to be in Dalkeith, going by the children's entries, by 1851.
Will try and do more later.
Monica
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Ok...followed through on the John Bishop born at the end of December 1812 in Leith, son of John Bishop and Jane Henderson. By chance, John Snr here was also a Chelsea Pensioner.
However, this John b. 1812 remained in Scotland and married Margaret Tyrie. He died in Glasgow at the age of 80 in 1893. Parents as above. Will & Testament also available for him on SP.
So that closed the door on him....
Back to John Bishop born 1809, son of William Bishop and Helen Maxwell https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTTW-HBM
Monica :)
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Hi Monica L & Shaun J,
Just wanted you to know how much I appreciate the help you are giving me. I am overwhelmed with all the information.
As you can see by my posts I am having trouble jumping from -- James McKay Bishop (b. 1841 (in St.Helena or Cape Colony) and died in South Africa 1887- married to Mary Elizabeth Venables) to the next generation i.e. his father. Does any of the information you have researched show a son called 'James McKay Bishop"? I must admit, I am somewhat confused at present - need a clearer mind to take it all on board - maybe a rested mind in the morning will help!! Looking forward to working it through. Have you got it clear in your minds? Thanks again. Cheers from Australia
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The thing to do as Monica suggests is to order the birth certificate for that James McK. Bishop born St Helena in 1841, and take it from there.
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Dear MonicaL, Just to clarify.....what is the meaning of 'attested, at attestation"? Is it only to do with joining the army? And if so, do you know what that means in the day by day execution of a soldiers duty in that era?
I am just starting to try and piece together all the information. As yet I haven't had an opportunity to try and get a birth certificate for James McKay. It's all fascinating. Thank you
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Best to ask that question on the armed forces board here on RC if important.
Monica :)
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Thanks MonicaL, The link you suggested is very helpful. Much appreciated.
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To: iwccc, ShaunJ - From vangasser
Your support is wonderful. Thank you for our connection of John Bishop, his son James McKay Bishop, who is my great-grandfather.
I will check the Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) Re Scots leaving for South Africa.
You and those who have inclination to chip in other information, would be so gratefully appreciated. Ed
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Dear Monica, You are also so appreciated. Ed.
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Hi ShaunJ and Monica, So sorry I have not been able to get back too often. As a clinical social worker, I have my hands full with the COVID-19 difficulties. However, I am so very grateful for your continued support with John Bishop whereabouts as, well as exact origin (Familial and place(s).
One for sure is that I have experienced very little from the South African departments that care for the civil adn/or church records. They will take your money, but hardly ever send to information paid for...a pity though.
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Do we possibly know if our Scottish John Bishop had any siblings traceable to their parentage? I was wondering if we could possibly for sure decide on who John Bishop's father was; if also John Bishop, we should then possibly work on finding his death notice, thereby hoping to have a list of his children. Sometimes we may find his parents' names as well (on the death notice). I have found that often the Death Notice contains the names of the deceased, his parents, spouse, (which often includes previous marriages) and children with each spouse.
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Hi vangasser - Seems my wife is your 3rd cousin : George Bishop, James's brother, is her great-grandfather. I have likewise been very thankful for help from MonicaL & iwccc!
I'm still busy establishing John Bishop's timeline (thank goodness for his military records - on ancestry) and his immediate family. There was another son born on St Helena, William, b 1839 & d 1840 and a daughter Elizabeth Anna born at Fort Beaufort, bap 1844.
Catherine (Shanon per George's baptism record .... in Dingwall, Scotland of all places!) was mother of George, William and James but Elizabeth baptism record says mother Christiana. Then his last wife (per 1861 England Census) was Ann?? Looking for Catherine Shanon I saw practically all the Shanon's came from Ireland in those days and then this afternoon discovered John's 91st Regiment was based in Ireland from July 1835 to at least December 1835. Will investigate further.
I agree with you the era of the deceased person's parents and children being listed on South African Death Notices (mainly for Probate reasons!) was extremely useful in establishing links between parents and children! Getting to see John's DN in Dorset would be very difficult but even if one could the DNs in the UK don't seem to have all that parent & children linkage info.
Enough for now,
WeeJM
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Welcome to RootsChat, WeeJM :)
Monica
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Thanks Monica! Well, took a look at actual document for George Bishop's baptism in Dingwall, Scotland. The question was in what on earth were they doing there while the regiment had moved to St Helena a couple of years previously? The answer is he was there as Recruiting Sergeant for the 91st. Maybe indicates he was presentable and persuasive? Unfortunately there was no additional useful info.
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Dear WeeJM
This so exciting 😊 I so appreciate your good news. I was a little confused when I browsed to quickly as I read the name George Bishop. I had to re-read in order to make sense of what you actually wrote. Then, my heart gave a jump from excitement as it made so much more sense when I read George’s brother being one of the siblings of James, as well as to solidify that they were from Dingwell, Scotland. How marvelous that you found that information. You have rekindled my urgency with those who are the progenitors of our South African – Scotland Bishop family. So, as you mentioned that Catherine (Shanon) is the mother, but we do not have the name of the father? I will see if I can find the father’s name in the Fort Beaufort records under baptisms records. Do we possibly know which church they were in? It would seem that several of the Bishops here in South Africa were Methodists.
WeeJM, again I am so delighted with your good news. Thank you very much. Please tell your sweet wife a great big “Hello” from me. Please take care of yourselves during the COVID-19 events. Blessings, Ed,
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Hello WeeJM and others, I just had a thought. There was a 1820 British Settler(to south Africa) who was a William Karse BISHOP. He married a certain Ann(s) Timm(s). After extended research, I could not find a direct connection with this Bishop family. They came from England, and not Scotland. Just a thought... Thank you, Ed(vangasser).
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Hi WeeJM, thanks for a little more information on the Bishop Family. Every little bit counts!
I have already printed my information but I can add this information in. Will let the relatives in South Africa know of the new information. Thanks again.
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WeeJM, iwccc, Monica, Monitor, and others, Thank you for your generous support. It is much appreciated. Ed- vangasser.
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Well - scotlandspeople records have been useful! It's very clear the John Bishop born to William Bishop and Helen Maxwell in 1809 is not our one since there's a death record showing he died aged 10 weeks. Same parish and father, a chimney sweep, in both baptism and death records. Rather unfortunate since I don't have more than a guess as to his actual parents!
Firstly his age : told the army (in 1928 and 1852 - consistent!) he was 20 in 1829 hence the 1809 birth year. However the 1871 Census Record which is clearly his indicates 1812 as does his apparent death record. I have no good idea why he'd lie to the recruiting people - doesn't seem there was much of a minimum age requirement - but I'm very inclined to think 1812 is right. Perhaps he thought he'd be an initially perceived as a bit more senior than a 17 year old?
My 1812 assertion is supported by there not appearing to be any 1809 baptised alternatives. I've discarded any 1814 baptisees - can't see a 15yo claiming to be 20!?!? Re 1812 Johns - it's not son of John B & Jane Henderson's as asserted by you, Monica, above. All I'm left with is son of George Bishop & Hellen Linton, born 26 Jan 1812 at Portabello, baptised Edinburgh St James Place Relief on 16 Feb 1812. (They had another son, George, same place in 1817.) This, however, is a purely name and place on a single document based - notoriously unreliable!
But wait, there's more : there's a baptism record on 4 Mar 1832 at Oldham, Lancashire of a Christiana daughter of Christiana and one John Bishop "soldier in the 91st Regm of Foot". https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-4LVL-Q?i=397 Can't be anyone other than "our John"! So, now we have :
- Christiana b 1832 in Lancashire mother "Christiana",
- George Manson b 1837 at Dingwall, Scotland mother "Catherine Shanon",
- William b 1839 d 1840 at Jamestown, St Helena mother "Catherine",
- James McKay b Oct 1841 at St Helena, bap Dec 1841 at Cape Town mother "Catherine",
- Elizabeth Anna b 1844 at Fort Beaufort, Eastern Cape mother "Christiana" (remember her?), and,
- Living in 1871 at Burton-Bradstock, Dorset with "Ann(e?)".
Bigamist? Philanderer? Unlucky widower? Husband of lady using different names at different times?
Have to say old John is giving me the proverbial pain in the posterior!
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By the way, vangasser, do you have all the info you need on James McKay Bishop and his 10 children etc? I've got some but Trevor Venables from UK seems to have a lot more.
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Hi all, Bishop Famil Scotland/South Africa
So far since last time, I have found (with the help of several of you kind folks) that John Bishop is the father of John Bishop, John Bishop is the father of James McKay Bishop, who is the father of George James Bishop, the father of my mother, Sarah Louisa Bishop.
I have also found a William Bishop, who is the father of John Bishop. William is married to Helen Maxwell. Her father was Alexander MADWELL; Not sure where the MAXWELL and MADWELL connect...possibly spelling issue. William and Helen were married on 1 Oct 1799 at Canongate, (Edinburgh) Midlothian, Scotland
It seems that John Bishop has two brothers David and Alexander, as well as two sisters, Helen and Margaret.
Hopefully this will bring us closer to the next line(s) upward.
I am still sorting this out, but am so excited that we now have one more Bishop father and also his wife Helen's father (Maxwell).
An other information would be much appreciated, please.
Until next time, vangasser.
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Hi WeeJM,
Thank you for our good information and suggestions. Is it possible that it is not John Bishop that died a few weeks after birth, but rather one of the other sons?
I am certain that the surname MAXWELL is correct and not MADWELL, referring to Helen Maxwell, wife of William BISHOP.
Just a thought...
Thank you,
vangasser.
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Not sure where the MAXWELL and MADWELL connect...possibly spelling issue.
Are you using Ancestry or MyHeritage or some other web site notorious for poor transcriptions?
It is indexed as Maxwel (missing one l) at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, where you can (and should) look at the original document to see if it gives you any more information.
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Just to put it out there, there is a website called eGGSA. org that is very useful for anyone looking for records in South Africa. They are in the middle of a passenger list transcription project. Definitely worth checking out. Kim