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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: blake1 on Tuesday 02 September 14 00:42 BST (UK)
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:) Hi, I've found an Isaac Walker ( alias Challenor) Ogle. connecting to my other site- re; Arthur Blake.Kent. Isaac Born 1849 Hollyrood, County Down Ireland.
Married my G Aunt, Sarah Ann Blake born 1849 Kent & they married 5 Jun 1869 London.
Isaac was a top gold medal student for Law in Dublin but took up a life of crime.
He set out on a life of larceny in Ireland, England and Australia and boy was he a charmer.
Isaac & Sarah had three children Francis died age 1, Eveline, George who died age 4. I assume he abandoned them.
Isaac married for a 2nd time to a Margaret Brady a Catholic same year as George was born in 1877.
His wrong doings are well documented on Ancestry under his name, but I will give a brief outline.
He committed various crime culminating in a crime in a Law firm he worked at in Australia to a Mr Duffett.
After this crime Isaac placed his clothes on the beach at St Kilda, where the authorities searched for his body until the crime unravalled and the search was on, Isaac took a ship to Adelaide and then another planning to disembark at the Panama Canal and make a run for Mexico, but while on board changed his mind and carried on to England. He was sailing with a woman he said was his wife's sister, Brady.
His undoing was the Submarine telegragh, which had the police waiting for him.
Eventually he found himself back in a court in Australia. While in prision he was employed to do the books where again he got up to his counterfeiting ways plus altering other prisioners release dates!!
* I'm looking to what happened to Isaac & Sarah's child - Eveline Ethel Maude born 5.7.1873 Dublin.
* Was Isaac a bigamist? ( as his 2nd wife was Catholic ) they had a child Leonard James born Dublin.
* What happened to Isaac after 1882 & where did he die?
Finally Sarah Ann ended up at her mother's home in Kent and died there in 1904 age 55 without her daughter.
Many thanks Ken
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Isaac C Ogle is in Liverpool in the 1901 census as a lodging house manager at 13 Upper Parliament Street. The census entry put his age at 46 and birthplace London.
Isaac Walter Ogle was convicted of forgery with intent to defraud and given 9 months imprisonment in Liverpool in April 1899.
Previously convicted in Dublin in 1889 (12 months for fraud) 1892 (12 months for forgery) and 1894 (6 months for stealing a coat) as Isaac W Ogle.
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There's an Ethel Eveline Maud Ogle on the 1914 electoral roll for Port Melbourne
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Francis Herbert Blake, son of Isaac Walker Ogle & Sarah Anne, born 1870-
birth- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F53L-JJB
baptism- http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/66b40b0021621
Frederick Arthur D'Alberg, son of Isaac (solicitor) & Sarah Ogle, born 1872-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/80c29e0207972
Eveline Ethel Maude born 1873 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR48-B92
Leonard James, son of Isaac Walker Ogle & Margaret Brady, born 1878-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7ea8d10247508
From 1889-1894 (as already mentioned) Isaac was in Ireland following (not very well since he got caught numerous times) a life of crime- https://familysearch.org/search/collection/2043780
Not sure what this is but have included it because of the name and location-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCF1-YM8
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A few newspaper articles which you might not have seen-
Freeman's Jourbal, 19 May 1871: OGLE- May 18, at 32 Shelbourne-road, Dublin, Bertie, only child of Isaac W. Ogle, aged 9 months.
Belfast Newsletter, 22 May 1871: OGLE- May 18, at Shelbourne Road, Dublin, Francis Herbert Blake, infant son of Isaac W. Ogle, aged nine months.
Freeman's Journal, 28 Feb.1872: OGLE- Feb. 27, at 153 Rathmines-road, the wife of Isaac W. Ogle, solicitor, of a son.
Freeman's Journal, 30 June 1873: OGLE- June 28, the wife of Isaac W. Ogle, solicitor, of a daughter.
Not sure what this is but have included it because of the name and location-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCF1-YM8
according to newspaper reports this is to do with the sale of a house for the Estate of Daniel Toler.
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There's a birth registration for a Leonard James Ogle Apr./June 1878 Lambeth district (London) volume 1d page 473 (wonder if this is Isaac's son born London but baptised Dublin)?
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;D Hi, Looks like you are all spot-on with your findings. I'm amazed how you all find such details while I'm still racking about in the basics.
* Yes that is Isaac in Liverpool as Margaret is there with him, she later died in Liverpool.
* Ethel Eveline the daughter in Australia is interesting and wondering if she went on to make a life for herself. ( God willing, the family didn't have much luck ).
It appears Isaac's father Frederick was a bit of a dodgy character.
Arthur Blake ran the pier Hotel, Upnor, Kent. and Isaacs father a wine merchant?!! Perhaps that's how Sarah & Isaac met.
Arthur, Sarah's father had 11 children but only 3 survived & Sarah was the first of two girls to marry, so I can imagine Arthur in celebratory mood splashing the cash to keep up with the Ogles.
Isaac took his second wife to Dublin where his first wife was still living (Madness).
**As Isaac was a solicitor I am wondering if he divorced Sarah & how she survived. (Gut feeling says Bigamist).
** :-\ Still can't find Isaac's death.
** Frederick Arthur D'Alberg was a surprise. Wonder whether he survived.
Again many thanks. Ken
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It certainly is an interesting family to research :)
I haven't found what happened to Frederick Arthur D'Alberg Ogle but have to confess I was concentrating on other lines of research. Do you know what happened to Leonard James?
Found lots of details of Isaacs' father and siblings but hadn't come across any dodgy dealings from Frederick yet (although his Will is extremely interesting when looked over).
Let me know if you want to information I found on Frederick Ogle & family.
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:) Hi, Yes please, I would be interested to see what you have found.
Ethel Eveline came back to the U.K. from Australia as a nurse in 1914, I asume because of the war.
:( I've had no luck with Leonard James or Frederick Arthur.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding the will as I've only found the probate.
Isaac's father did a year in prison for non-payment of depts, he did argue his case but it was thrown out.
Many thanks Ken
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Frederick Ogle (c1814-1869), merchant, Belfast, m.(29 Apr.1840) Sarah Hardy.
http://www.irishmasonichistory.com/uploads/1/0/3/8/10381775/early_freemasonry_in_tandragee.pdf
”Presented to Wellington Masonic Lodge, No. 82 Tandragee by Bro. Frederick Ogle, on his leaving the Lodge, 24th June, 1948 [1848]”
Brother Frederick Ogle (d.1869) was a son of Brother John Ogle, one of the founders of Lodge 18, Newry. He was a wine merchant in Newry and later in Belfast. His link with Tandragee was probably his wife, Sarah, daughter of John Hardy of Cooley Hill, and sister of Robert Boyd Hardy, whom he married 29th April, 1840.
Belfast Newsletter, 22 Jan.1856: Advertisements & Notices- FREDERICK OGLE OFFERS FOR SALE a Large and Carefully Selected Stock of CHAMPAGNE; CLARET; OLD PORT; … SHERRY, … BRANDY and RUM; … LIQUEURS; … WHISKEY, from Two to Six Years OId; ALES and PORTER, &e. …
1861: SUGARHOUSE ENTRY (High St. to Waring St.) 2 Frederick Ogle's bonded stores.
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/scomplete1861.htm
1. Margaret Ogle (c1842).
2. Letitia Ogle (c1844) ?m.(1894 Belfast) Samuel ___.
3. Frederick Ogle (c1846 Belfast), commission agent, Australia, m.(1875 London?) Adelaide Lammese. 5 or 6 children?.
4. Francis Robert Ogle (c1847) m.(1878 Belfast) Elizabeth ___.
5. Isaac Walker Ogle (c1849).
6. Sarah Ogle (c1851).
7. John Hardy Ogle.
Lots more on Frederick Ogle's business online (google "frederick ogle & belfast")
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??? The Ogle family seems quite established in life, yet Isaac still went off the rails.
What was it about the will of Frederick, Isaac's father that grabbed your interest?
Cheers Ken
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Frederick Ogle's Will is available online-
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearchResults.aspx
The Will of Frederick Ogle late of Victoria-place Belfast Merchant deceased who died 13 September 1869 at Belfast aforesaid was proved at Belfast [22 Oct.1969] by the oaths of Samuel Black of Belfast aforesaid (Solicitor) and Frederick William Kidd of Dundalk County Louth (Merchant) the Executors. Effects under £5,000.
Will dated 15 June 1869 (2 months before he died) mentions daughter Letitia, daughter Sarah, sons John Hardy Ogle & Francis Robert Ogle, son Frederick Ogle.
Compare the children's names with the family- (named in bold mentioned in Will)
1. Margaret Ogle (c1842).
2. Letitia Ogle (c1844) ?m.(1894 Belfast) Samuel ___.
3. Frederick Ogle (c1846 Belfast)
4. Francis Robert Ogle (c1847) m.(1878 Belfast) Elizabeth ___.
5. Isaac Walker Ogle (c1849).
6. Sarah Ogle (c1851).
7. John Hardy Ogle.
What, or more precisely who isn't mentioned is son Isaac (Will written around the time Isaac was getting married in London).
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:D Hi, Thank you for the information, I only had the probate for the death of Frederick Ogle. It seems I got it wrong about Isaac's father, it was Isaac's brother Frederick who got the prison term, in Melbourne Australia...3 months for no-payment of dept & 5 years for obtaining goods and not paying for them.
I'm still searching for Frederick Arthur D'Alberg Ogle as he is a blood-line.
Isaac seems to have disappeared after 1901!!
Anyone got any idea's about the poor laws in Dublin as my G.Aunt, Sarah Ann Ogle could have been left destitute. :(
Cheers ken
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What an interesting post
:)
xin
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I'm still searching for Frederick Arthur D'Alberg Ogle as he is a blood-line.
If you post what you know about Frederick Arthur D'Alberg Ogle we might be able to find more about him.
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:D Hi, I know nothing other than what you told on your first post on this search.
I'm wondering if Isaac died in prison and if so how would it be recorded.
;D He seemed so devious, he's proberbly still alive!!!!!
Again, many thanks, Ken.
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I'm wondering if Isaac died in prison and if so how would it be recorded.
;D He seemed so devious, he's proberbly still alive!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
If Isaac died in prison then he should still appear in civil death index.
Online death registration for Ireland go up to 1958 (for Northern Ireland counties it's now slightly earlier c1954), England deaths index up to c2005 online.
I can't find him anywhere yet :-\
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Hello,
The plot thickens....
I am weighing in from New Zealand (well, we Ogles are actually Australian, 3rd gen). Now, it's possibly my info on Isaac from Ancestry, you are referring to. I spent days researching his brother ' Naughty Fred' as we call him. I am an absolute beginner though, so I am sure I went in circles.
Here's the irony, 'Naughty Fred' was my gg grandfather. Now, I know why the family didn't speak of our past. The irony of life it this, my father, an Ogle, rose to 2nd in charge of Westpac Bank here. Westpac was formed from the merger of The Bank of Wales and the Commercial Bank of Australia - two of the banks that his grandfather, 'naughty Fred' had so oft defrauded. There are some fabulous articles in Trove.
I lost track of Isaac after his release here in Australia. I too would live any info to read.
I know very little about Frederick, their father, was he dodgy?
Also, I may have a contact regarding Sarah and Eveline. I have a small window of time to play at the moment - I am in between university semesters. As this is the first time I have popped up on roots chat, I am unclear how it works - do I receive a notification I wonder if you contact me? Will have to wait and see if you boomerang back. Have a peek on my ancestry - not sure if I have us correct prior to Fred the wine-merchant. :) cheers (slightly tongue-in-cheek), Di.
They had alias names as well.
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;) Hi great to hear from you. Welcome to the mystery club. Talk about 'Naughty Fred', what about 'Irascible Issac'!!
The release date from prison or approximate time would help towards finding the elusive Issac.
As you have probably guessed, Issac's death is another mystery...Date & Country.
I wouldn't be surprised if he sold the Hotel fraudulently and went and finished his days with family in Oz!!? ( I'll have a search).
Their father, the wine merchant, seemed O.K...and had a nice home in London.
It would be great if you had a little time to look for a death certificate. He sometimes called himself Challenor and the last date I have for him was 1901 census in Liverpool. Heaven knows what he got up to after that!
Do you know of Ethel Eveline, the daughter of Isaac and Sarah? We think we found her on a ship
from Australia to UK in 1914, as a nurse. She could have ended her days in Oz.
This site works as an open forum and any replies show on the top of your page.
As you can see other members are quite helpful & supportive and their knowledge has no borders.
:D Cheers Ken.
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How did everyone go in 'naughty Fred' ogle and the missing Isaac?
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Hmmmmmm just figuring out hiw this site works. Lovely to be on board. I have been back at university this year, shall now turn my research skills (small laugh as I am a beginner in this field) to finding the irascible Isaac. Anyone know much about the Ogles before them? I think I have a trail but am not sure. Will post it when I am back in New Zealand after Christmas in Australia. Merry Christmas to the Ogs out there and all the other fams!! :D
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Anyone know much about the Ogles before them?
Hi
I'm not related, however I've been researching the merchant families of Newry and the surrounding area on and off for several years now, so have certainly encountered the Ogles. I can't help with Isaac Walker's eventual demise, however as to his siblings:
1. Margaret Ogle (c1842). Margaret died on 18 Dec 1865 at Bangor. Probate was granted to her father Frederick of Victoria Place, Belfast on 11 Nov 1865
2. Letitia Ogle (c1844) ?m.(1894 Belfast) Samuel ___. Letitia married Samuel Barr, a merchant and Justice of the Peace who lived at Claremont, County Londonderry. Samuel was a widower when he married Letitia on 7 Nov 1894. When he died in 1896 his Will (available online via PRONI) instructed his Trustees to pay any interests from his estate to Letitia during the rest of her natural life. She moved to Colwyn Bay in Wales and died there on 31st Dec 1917.
3. Frederick Ogle (c1846 Belfast), commission agent, Australia, m.(1875 London?) Adelaide Lammese. 5 or 6 children?. Frederick was born on 15th Aug 1847, and married Adelaide Louisa Lammerse in 1879
4. Francis Robert Ogle (c1847) m.(1878 Belfast) Elizabeth ___. Francis Robert married Elizabeth Campbell at Trinity Church, Belfast on 13 Jul 1878, and died just under 3 years later on 6 Jul 1881
5. Isaac Walker Ogle (c1849).
6. Sarah Ogle (c1851). Sarah married John McIlveen, a linen merchant, on 19 Feb 1874 in Belfast; they had 5 daughters
7. John Hardy Ogle. Born 1841, died 9 Aug 1870 at 116 Chichester Place, Belfast
Frederick (1814-13 Sep 1869) was the son of John Ogle, (1772 Newry-17 Nov 1831 Dublin), a solicitor, and his wife Isabella Walker (1784-26 Mar 1848). I have additional information on the Ogles which I'm happy to share - have PM'd you my details.
Best Regards
Jim
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Hello all,
I have a podcast called 'Family History Mysteries'. I am based in Australia and am currently preparing an episode on Frederick Ogle and his family. I came across your discussion on the Ogle family and would love to see if any family members are closer to solving some of the mysteries in the family. i would also love family members to read over my script once it is done to check over. looking forward to hearing from you :)