RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: jennywren001 on Wednesday 27 August 14 14:59 BST (UK)
-
Hi,
On balance would you take this couple to be John Neish's parents?
In 1774 a John Neish is born to a Robert Neish and Jean Taylor they are living at Tilly(ie)down in the parish of Marnoch.
In 1803 a John Neish married to Margaret Fraser has a son called Alexander while living at Tillydown, Marnoch.
1841 John Neish is still alive but showing on the census as age 55 - born around 1786 - even with rounding this is a bit out. By this time he is living at Cairnhill in Rothiemay parish.
To get an idea of the place I've looked here:
http://www.geograph.org.uk/near/Tillydown/NJ5749
On Freecen there are only 20 people showing living there in 1841 but maybe in the 1780s it was a bigger place altogether?
There are two other John Neish boys born around the same time - both in Rothiemay parish.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB3G-8LB
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB3G-8LR
Any help moving forward gratefully received.
Jen
-
Hi Everyone,
I've managed to eliminate the two Johns born Rothiemay and in so doing have accumulated quite a bit of information on their families. I've attached my rough notes in case anyone is looking at either:
John Neish (Weaver) and Isabel McWilliam - married 1774 Rothiemay
or
William Neish (Crofter) and Margaret Marshall - children born Rothiemay from about 1778
I'm not convinced my John is son to Robert and Jean but he is linked to this family is some way given the predominance of Alexanders and the links to both Tilliedown and Cairnhill. I've made a note to add both John and his son Alexander to my must look at Kirk Session Minutes!
Jen
-
Not very helpful, but just to say the name Neish does not appear on any existing gravestone at Marnoch.
-
Thanks GR2 at least that's one road I don't have to tread. :) I'm getting to the stage where this family will need an arch lever folder of their own given the amount of paperwork I've got on them.
Jen
-
Greetings from the Neish clan (Scottish division here) Being a Neish myself I have access to a work of many years building an accurate history of every Neish who ever lived. The work (database) is based on what each of us can contribute but only added to the master database once formal evidence has been produced and confirmed.
Perhaps if you send me details of a later generation or include birth death marriage details i should be able to give you quite a bit of information. ( John Neish, it is implied, ended up in India) As always Mothers names are crucial especially with the naming habits of our Scottish forefathers.
-
Hi and welcome to RootsChat,
Reading back on this I see it's all a bit vague. Perhaps, this will shed more light on why I'm interested in John Neish.
This is him in 41 living Cairnhill, Rothiemay :
NEISH John M 55 Mason Banffshire
NEISH Alexander M 35 Mason Banffshire
NEISH John M 10 Banffshire
ROBB Benjamin M 35 Sawyer Outside Census County (1841)
CONNON Margaret F 15 Female Servant Outside Census County (1841)
John Neish and Margaret Fraser are the parents of a Mary Neish born 1811 in Marnoch. Mary Neish (my 3xGGM) marries Alexander Henderson in Oct 1832. The OPR for Rothiemay lists the bride's abode as Cairnhill and the father of the bride as John Neish. On Mary's death certificate from 1892 her father is listed as John Neish, mason. On all census Mary lists her place of birth as Marnoch.
John Neish and Margaret Fraser look to have had at least five children:
Alexander b. 1803 d. 1870 - single (showing with his father in the 41 census above with his own son John born 1831 to a Mary Taylor).
John b.1805 (no trace)
Mary b. 1811 d. 1892
William b. 1815 (no trace)
William Dason b. 1816 (no trace)
A Margaret Neish is born 1822 to a John Neish and a Jean Horn. I'm pretty sure the John involved is Mary's father rather than brother. Margaret marries twice - the first marriage in Dec 1841 is to a Benjamin Robb (also on above 41 census) bride's abode Cairnhill, father John Neish mason. On the 41 census a Margaret 'Neich' age 15 is living with Mary Henderson. Margaret dies in 1886 - death certificate helpfully lists father as - Neish!
I really don't think at the age of around 60 my John Neish the mason would up sticks and head off for India. I'm presuming he died between 1843 (when he is witness to Margaret's second wedding) and 1851 when only Alexander is living at Cairnhill. I do not know what happened to Alexander's son John b. 1831 or his brother John b. 1805 or in fact the two Williams.
I'm presuming Margaret Fraser was not alive when John had a child with Jean Horn and named her Margaret. Although upon reflection is seems a bit weird in these circumstances to name your daughter after your dead wife. You can see why I need to visit the Kirk sessions.
Margaret Fraser seems almost to have never existed. No mother is listed on Alexander's death certificate and on Mary's her mother is down as Margaret Walker - which is Mary's sister's name after she marries Francis Walker in 1843!
I have no idea who Margaret Connon age 15 is she is down as a servant on the above census but with this family who knows? I am also baffled by the naming of the second William - his middle name 'Dason' means nothing to me.
You'd think with only 15 Neishes showing in Banffshire for 41 this would be a relatively easy family to sort out!
Jen
-
I can see why you are confuddled!
Ok first look - Mary Neish,
I have as born 28th August, 1811 in marnoch to John neish and Maragaret Fraser. Died 1892, married Alexander Henderson in 1832. The notes iclude 7 children and ref to Gamrie Banffshire and Rothiemay again bannfshire.
So her mother Margaret Fraser - produced three children
Mary 1811, and
William march 1815 who appears to have died in infancy (before 1816), and as was quite common another
William Dason Neish 28th Oct, 1816. The father in all cases being John Neish.
There are no further records for either William, but we have full documentation for Mary.
I also have a Margaret Neish born of a Jane Horn (not Jean) on 20 mar 1822 and John Neish as the father. Margaret appears to have married twice, Benjamin Robb and Francis Walker 1841 and 1843.
So if I am on the right track I now need to establish which John Neish we are looking at. We seem to have produced them on an industrial scale!!
Interestingly Jane Horn does not appear as anyone’s spouse.
I'm off to do some homework!
-
Looked back at the OPRs for the Henderson children's births. John and Alexander Neish at Rothiemay are showing as witnesses up till William's birth in March 1847 so John must have lived until then at least.
Do you have any reason to believe that Alexander and John are not the children of John and Margaret Fraser? She is listed as the mother on their birth records and Alexander's age at death indicates a birth around 1803/4.
1822 John Neish and Jane (does look more like Jane on the original document) Horn in Tillydown had twins (in fornication) James and Margaret.
Jen
-
There were sizeable numbers of Neish known to have lived in this are since well before 1715. Yet more with bizarre medieval spellings. Because we cannot yet prove who is related to who I will ignore them for now. You may understand this better as you read on:-
Back further into history - So, we will start with Alexander Neish Born about 1715 died after 1778 married Ann or Janet Reid born about 1715 in Rothiemay Banffshire, Kids and our start for this family line were:-
Isobel 1737 - after 1777 Married John Loban 1766, 3 kids Janet 1768, Jean 1773, Margaret 1777.
Robert about 1739 - before 1801 Married Jean Taylor1769, Marnoch 4 kids, Alexander 1769, William 1772, John 1774, Janet 1778
Alexander 1741 - after 1769 no marraige or kids recorded
William about 1744 - Married Margaret Marshall born 1750 in 1776 , 7 kids Janet 1777 - 1858, John 1779 1861, Isobel 1782, Alexander 1786 - bef 1855, William 1789 - 1865, Elspeeth 1791 1858, Robert 1793 - 1870.
John about 1746 - 1791 Married Isabel Mcwilliam born bef 1748 and 3 kids Alexander 1774 - 1853, John 1778 1866, Robert 1781 - 1872 . There is also a child by Janet Reid - William 1769 in King Edward aberdeen. No other details.
Even by this stage the family is quite large all living close to the Rothiemay area of Banffshire. It is probable that the first Alexander Neish was a tenant farmer at a place called "Fowlfolds" in Rothiemay. (This was a Farm around a Duckpond, which still exists and neighbouring ruins listed by Aberdeen council as an ancient ruin still exist although the current owners of the area do not allow access.) The point here being the concentration of Neish with similar names in a very small area. I believe the references to Marnoch are where the records were kept. The same naming scheme continues throughout the extended forefathers and offspring who I haven't extrapolated out. They all seemed to live within a days walk of each other making it very difficult to sort out John from John especially when the records are centralised as happened in all the parishes.
So we now have your line, Alexander] then son Robert then son John 1774 marrying Margaret Fraser in 1801 who appears to die in childbirth or shortly thereafter about 1816-1820. Their kids were, Jean 1801, Alexander 1803 - 1870, John 1805, Mary 1811 - 1892, William 1815 and William Dason Neish in 1816. After Margaret's death we see Jane Horn but he (John) never marries her. John and Jane have 2 kids James 1822 - 1864 and Margaret 1822 1886. No ref to twins though.
So we now have the Mary 1811 1892 married at Rothiemay 21st October, 1832 to Alexander Henderson and having 7 kids. John, 1832, Alexander 1838, Janet 1841, Jean 1844, William 1847 to after 1892, George 1849, and Mary Grant henderson 1852.
The Margaret Neish you mentioned would have been Mary's half sister, married twice Bejamin Robb 1805 - 1842-3, then Francis Walker 1805 1885 and having 6 kids. so John Neish 1774 was her father. Her cause of death senile decay (better than the alternative name of brain fat)
How am I doing ?
-
Fowlfolds wasn't actually a farm but a group of six crofts. One of them was tenanted by my Reid ancestors. I don't think there was a pond at that time either. The landscape has been altered a lot by the current owners.
-
That's such a wonderful story but I'm still concerned that I'm accepting Robert and Jean Taylor as John's parents through a process of elimination while using an incomplete set of birth records. As you can see from my attached rough notes I had discounted the Johns born to the Neish/McWilliam and Neish/Marshall pairings. That rather conveniently left (from the available records) the John born to Robert in 1774. Now, the first problem I have is in 1841 John's age is given as 55 so with rounding lets go top end and say he's 59 - that's a birth date of around 1782 - eight years out at best.
Next, John names his first son Alexander, then we have John then William not once but twice - no Robert.
The John Neish born in 1774 has a date of birth of April the 28th and a baptism on April the 29th - such a quick baptism could indicate a child who was unlikely to survive.
Unless this area of Scotland is unique there must be some unrecorded births - especially those children born outside of wedlock.
That Neish marriage in 1801 in Forgue - I'm left wondering who is the Neish is who marries a Sim? There are also links with Forgue that I have yet to work out.
Was the Jannet Neish born to William and Margaret Mercer in 1877 the same Janet who dies in 1858 with a father listed as William Neish and mother listed as Margaret Marshall on her death certificate?
Like I said fascinating story but I'd not be adding my John to your database just yet :) I think there are just too many unknowns...
Jen
ps
On the 1822 OPR for James and Margaret the word 'twins' is circled next to their entry....
-
Hello Warble, I will try and find a link for you. Aberdeen City Council Archive have archive photographs showing both the pond and ruined farm buildings, old maps showing at least two revised building layouts and the ruin is included in their record of ancient ruins. (links to follow) I cant argue about who else lived there, the downside of the one name study is the lack of information on relatives other than wives / mothers. The Reid ancestor you mentioned wouldn't happen to be Ann or Janet? Do you have a date?
I do know there appeared to be a good going business across several generations. Don't know if you have seen this, Google map pic current https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.5251686,-2.7859818,17z viewing either the map or sat view clearly showing the natural ponds, and 1852 ordinance survey http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/record/nls/6820/ordnance-survey-25-inch-mile-banff-sheet-02102/os25inch You might need to zoom this in a wee bit and it should be noted the land was by this time cut into long strips under the runrig system and shows as a group of crofts. The group could explain why so many Neish are recorded as living there.
I also enclose a link: http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-352-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_069/69_223_250.pdf which highlights the importance of this little village in transport terms and tax collecting and a seat of power.
-
I'll start with the easy bit. Sorry, I was being thick! failed to notice two births in same year - this is usually twins. (Iwill do better!)
Next, The daughter of Robert Neish and Jean Taylor Janet b 1778 married a John Sim in forgue aberdeenshire which is about 2 - 3 miles from Marnoch. No recorded Children, But I dont have death records for either so they could have moved.There are army records in this portion of the family as well.
The practice of giving a baby the same name as its deceased sibling is actually quite common. And , there were quite a few very quick baptisms who survived. As for children born but not recorded, the power exerted by the Presbyterian church at this time can be seen in the article I posted earlier (and Robert Burns poetry)
Moving back to your John.
I have 3 John Neish in a very short time, our John as you proposed 1774 in Marnoch, or another born in Rothiemay 1778 of John and Agnes Horn The grandparents being John 1746 and Isabel McWilliam, and another in 1779 of John and Catherine Murray. The grandparents being William 1744 and Margaret Marshall 1792 - 185? They had 7 kids including a Margaret born 1835. There are a lot more Johns in the wings but I have stuck with likely dates. The 1779 John went off and joined the army and didn't marry till 1821 – you never know
What I cant see is what you currently know for certain. From there I have access to the official documents to work backward in time via the mothers. In most cases the people who have worked on this will create a family tree and PAF file if asked, but only when we are certain we have the right details. So who are you certain about?
You may be right about unrecorded births, but they would be recorded in the deaths or similar official records.
-
Many thanks for the links, I think for most people in Scotland in the 1800s that dovecote would have been better housing than what they were used to!
Going back in time this is what I have documented ('know' is another matter altogether :)) ).
1875 - George Henderson, cooper, age 24 married Margaret S Mundie in Fraserburgh his parents listed as Alexander Henderson and Mary Neish
Census 81 George with Margaret living Fraserburgh - birth place showing Turriff
Census 91 George with Margaret living Montrose - birth place showing Turriff (George dies in Montrose in 1917 - same parents showing on his DC)
71 he's boarding in Fraserburgh now a cooper showing born Turriff, in 61 and 51 I have him with his parents and siblings.
Gamrie and Macduff OPR -"George lawful son to Alexander Henderson and Mary Neish born at Turriff 28th July 1849 and baptised before the congregation." So pretty sure I've got the correct George Henderson. That's how I get back to Mary Neish....
From SP I have a list of Neish (and variations) births in both Aberdeen and Banffshire from 1700 to 1854 - no where in the list is a Jean born 1801 to John Neish and Margaret Fraser.
The marriages in Forgue in 1801 only show surnames - I'm making an educated guess that's John Neish and Margaret Fraser - I can't find the bans called in Banffshire.
OK, in trying to find the parents of John Neish the mason I've now got a heap of documents on the walking distance Neish gang - I'm going to put that in some order. Think I'll just give up even thinking about Margaret Fraser the invisible woman.....
Jen
-
I have extracted the following data straight from both my database and PAF files. If this first one is correct so are the others.
Mary Neish born 28/8/1811 in Marnoch Banff Father John Neish, Mother Margaret Fraser Death 1892 marriage 1832 in Gamrie Banffshire in Rothiemay Banffshire in Macduff Banffshire 7 children OPR GROS IGI Ba:C111612 So:990988 & 155/A2 0046
Addresses:
65 Gellymile Street, Gamrie, Banffshire (1881)
59 Duff Street, Macduff, Banffshire (1892)
born 1811 gledfield Marnoch Banffshire
christened 28/8/1811 Marnoch (note same day)
Died 19/9/1892 Macduff banff fatty degeneration of the heart
Husband Alexander Henderson General labourer Addresses: 65 Gellymile Street, Gamrie, Banffshire (1881)
Father
Father John Neish Mason 1774 28th April (1841) Marnoch Banff, Father Robert Neish, Mother Jean Taylor Married Margaret Fraser in 1801, also Jane Horn,
OPR IGI Lawrie 1841
Addresses: in Forgue Aberdeenshire in Alvah Banffshire mason in Rothiemay Banffshire
Muiryhill, Alvah, Banffshire (1801)
Tillydown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1801)
Cairnhill, Marnoch, Banffshire (1805)
Gledfield, Marnoch, Banffshire (1811-16)
Cairnhill, Rothiemay, Banffshire (1841)
Mother Janet REID Addresses:
Core of Mayen, Rothiemay, Banffshire
Mouth of Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1769)
Foordmouth, Marnoch, Banffshire (1772)
Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1774-78)
Jean
Addresses:
Mouth of Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1769)
Foordmouth, Marnoch, Banffshire (1772)
Tillidown, Marnoch, Banffshire (1774-78)
The addresses and dates tie in throughout so I think we have the correct people. If you pm me an email address I can ask John Neish (a current one) to end you copies of your PAF file and any additional info since my last update.
Alisdair
-
Many thanks for the data. I finally found the OPR for Jean 'Nish' born 1801 they left that wedding a bit late ::) . On the OPR it does not state when Mary was born only the baptism date - how do you know she was both born and baptised on the same day - I'm just curious as most of the other children on the page are showing both dates but not Mary? Is the same day inferred or am I missing a record?
I'm now convinced the Margaret Marshall/Merschal/Mercer is the same woman - not quite as good as the Dundonian one I found for Marshall - Mairshell. So no stray Janets floating around.
I'm going to write up what I now know about this group of Neishes and see if it makes sense to me - starting to feel like a one name study. One thing for sure the birth records reflect a more accurate picture than say those in Kincardineshire.
Jen
-
Our one name record is the product of many years search by a great number of people but carefully co-ordinated by a few dedicated specialists and the records archived and computerised centrally. The ref no's are available to me and I suppose copies if I needed them. So the record is accurate or clearly labelled that more research is needed. For my own part I am interested in linking in those who have made it into history. Hangings on both sides of the Jacobite rebellion, or the last servant of Bonnie prince Charlie, or Captain Neish who brought Jute to Dundee, or which Neish signed the Westminster confession of faith. WW1 did for a lot of us but it was alo the making of many. There are many today in very prestigious positions medicine, research, academia, the Law to Astronaut. I have found that mistakes in records are far from uncommon even to totally different spelling boarding to disembarking a boat. I'm always happy to hear anything of interest as well! Pleased to have helped a little! Alisdair
-
Hello Alisdair,
The position of one of the steadings at Foulfolds (the one with the horse mill) seems to be under the waters of the new landscape feature:- http://maps.nls.uk/view/82870629
My ancestor James Reid was listed as a crofter in 1841 and the family remained there into the 20th century. The Reids were the most numerous (equal to the Smiths) in Rothiemay at that time.
The account for the Rev William Hay's stipend at Rothiemay around 1710 does not list Foulfolds although the farm of Cairnhill was listed at "one plugh of land, inde £5 1 boll 3 fir" and the other farms in Rothiemay are all listed.
There is an estate plan of 1821 in Aberdeen Special Collections for the "Plan of farm and crofts of Cairnhill with possessions of Fowlfolds" so it may be that Cairnhill was subdivided when the Duffs took over the estate.
-
Thank you Warble!!
There are still an awful lot of "Neish" alive looking for more information on Fowlfolds and the constant stream of Neish who seemed to live there. The L shaped structure at the left of the well looks most likely to be the photo I have seen from Aberdeen Council archive.
(I am in the daft position of downed computer at the moment, Using a little Linux Note, as soon as I can resurrect the archive off my old hard drives I will send you what I have historically.)
Meanwhile thank you for another lead in the rev William Hay's documents.
As you will be aware records before this time can be very vague and we have a 40/50 year break back to the previous family in the area. Records show us being at this farm from about 1735 ish to about 1900. Do you have any Neish in your family history or any connection with the new town of "Burghead"? Possibly from around 1890 on? Are you a local by any chance?
-
Hi I am looking for any information on a Margaret Niesh born 13/11/1892 this was my grandmother if anyone can help please get in touch she could of also been known as Margaret Niesh nisbet
-
I can probably help you Cath. Do you have any further details or an area? How certain are you of that date? Do you have any certificates? UPDATE: Now found a lady from Dumbarton or Dumbartonshire that could be her, but I have a 1891 birth could your date be christening or similar? There is a tie in with Nisbet but I dont know quite what yet. Will try to find out.
-
Hi yes that could possibly be her, I know my father nathaniel NISBET was born in Dumbarton shire, my grandmother was married twice first to a Daniel mcreedy he was in World War One and unfortunately was killed, they had 2 children Peter mcreedy and George mcreedy who I under stand was a POW, then she married Thomas NISBET and had 6 more children, Thomas who I understand was a desert rat, Margaret, nathaniel my father, Alexander,James,and William,unfortunately I don't have any certificates, I do understand that my grandmother Margaret Niesh her father was a captain on a ship, anything you can find out will be gratley appreciated can't wait to hear from you
-
I also know she died in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1986 at the age of 94 that's how I came to her date of birth of 13/11/1892 but it's possible the information I got from my uncle is wrong, woul like to know more about her family , where she came from her parents siblings ect if you can possibly help me, I can be reached by telephone if that's a help, 01919088195, 07749505683, once again thank you ever so much for you help and your time
-
Hi, back on your case. Sorry for the delay, lost your question in the earlier post you linked into. Now that I have found the thread again, I am back on the search.
-
I might be able to go back further to about 1770 as your family are part of our E1 (Edinburgh tree), but for now:-
George Neish, Blacksmith, B 1804 in Athlone Westmeath Ireland, D 1878, M 1826 Isabella Patience,
parents of
George Angus Neish, B 1835 in Lothian, M 1859 and 1871, D after 1897, and Martha McMillan parents of 3 children,
John 1865 to after 1932,
Margaret McMillan Qapple Neish 1862 to 1934 and
George McMillan Neish B 1859 D 1926 M 1883 Shipfitter, riveter, labourer in dumbarton, Cardross, Clydebank and New Kilpatrick. Married Jemma Stuart Spiers and 5 children followed.
Isabella, 1894 to 1966 M 1915, James Spiers neish 1885 to 1962 M 1914, Jemima speirs 1896 to 1971 M 1924, John 1887 to 1923 M 1919, and your Gran
Margaret Thorburn Neish, B 1891 D your date 1986, M 1912 and 1918, Lived Paisley, Barrhead, Blythswood, Newcastle
M1 Daniel McReady 2 kids,
M2 Thomas Nesbit 6 kids,
The downside of the one name listing is shortage of information on children who do not carry the Neish name, so you may need to help me try and find more about Margarets 8. Did any of them have a Neish middle name? When did she move to Newcastle area?
I have certificate numbers for most of this information but have no access to the certificates myself.
-
Hi I'm not sure when my grandmother moved to Newcastle but I am quite sure you have the correct family, my brother who is now deceased had the middle name Peter SPIERS nisbet, we also know a number of the family spelt NISBET as Nesbit ,I also know my gran had 2 kids to her first husband Peter and George (dodie) my father was born in her second marriage nathanial NISBET, anything you can find out will be a great help, I've also heard on my grandmothers side (Neish) her grandfather or great grandfather was a captain on a ship? Please find out what you can for me I really appreciate what you have done up till now I have also been told my grandfather Thomas NISBET his brother was a priest or had something to do with the church
-
For got to mention the location, my grandfathers brother who I mentioned earlier (NISBET) was a priest or had something to do with the church in Dumbartonshire,I also have been told my grandfather Thomas NISBET his father was killed when he was 6 on a railway trying to save a horse? Hope this helps you